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Old 04-27-2013, 10:21 AM   #141
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That only gets you so far, though. I think we need to draw a line between the folks suffering from consumer debt stemming from over-consumption and those suffering from more generalized financial weakness stemming from inadequate income to cover basic needs. What you mentioned would help the former, but not really make a difference with the latter.
True. On the other hand the thread is "why are many smart people clueless about investing/personal finance?" If these people are smart then I have to assume from a correlation point of view their parents are also likely to be smart and have higher income than normal. I agree that if there is a lack of resources and no prospects of increasing them no amount of financial knowledge will help.
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Old 04-27-2013, 11:00 AM   #142
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True. On the other hand the thread is "why are many smart people clueless about investing/personal finance?" If these people are smart then I have to assume from a correlation point of view their parents are also likely to be smart and have higher income than normal. I agree that if there is a lack of resources and no prospects of increasing them no amount of financial knowledge will help.
Personal experience, me and one of my brothers have always tested and been considered very well above average, but growing up, we didn't have much money at all, though I think it was a result of so many kids around and my mother being so young more than a lack of intelligence on my mom's side. We got no financial education from her. I watched her bounce check after check out of necessity. When she got a better job, she managed her finances well and these occurrences stopped, but we never talked about how.

Coming out of it, I'm the saver. I share an apartment with my older brother, age 21, who rarely saves any money. I try and push him to even put $20 a month into an IRA while we're so young, but he doesn't seem interested.

I'm not sure how my younger siblings will be. They have different fathers than us, so there would be that influence we never had, but they only visit them periodically. Right now they're too young for me to guess how they'll be with finances, only time'll tell. :P
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:38 PM   #143
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My friends who love to exercise are pretty fit. I don't enjoy exercise, and I'm not very fit. I am smart enough to understand the benefits of exercise, but I am still not motivated to take sufficient action.


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I can relate to that idea SIS. I have always been a LBYMer (have said in the past that I have been LBYMing before I knew how to spell LBYM) so saving/investing has been a no-brainer. But I have always hated to exercise/run distances etc. Several years ago I began to have health issues and decided that a regular exercise program would be to MY benefit in the long term. Wanting to be healthy for whatever time I have left on this earth, I began to work out regularly.

I now exercise M-F for about 1-2 hours a day and have been doing so for the last 8 years. I still don't particularly like to exercise/run/walk, but I decided to do so every weekday and will continue as long as I live. I guess I just got motivated.
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:11 PM   #144
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Dickens has a lot to answer for this as Chrismas Carol has forever given us Scrooge and made it a bad thing to be concerned about money unless yo spread it around and spend it.

In his defense, he also gave us Wilkins Macawber, and perhaps the best prescription for LBYM in all literature:


"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:44 PM   #145
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True. On the other hand the thread is "why are many smart people clueless about investing/personal finance?" If these people are smart then I have to assume from a correlation point of view their parents are also likely to be smart and have higher income than normal.
Assumptions are often wrong
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:50 PM   #146
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In his defense, he also gave us Wilkins Macawber, and perhaps the best prescription for LBYM in all literature:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
Yea he did and the Micawber Principle is the foundation of my financial philosophy. But Scrooge is a cultural touchstone, everyone knows him. Very few have heard of Mr. Micawber. So that well known portrait of the dangers of being careful with money is just another way our culture discourages saving.
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Old 04-27-2013, 03:27 PM   #147
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I now exercise M-F for about 1-2 hours a day and have been doing so for the last 8 years. I still don't particularly like to exercise/run/walk, but I decided to do so every weekday and will continue as long as I live. I guess I just got motivated.
I started a exercise routine about 2 years ago. I Also started taking a more active role in improving my health. I see it a normal outgrowth of the disipline I use to maintain my financial health. Once I felt how good it feels to have control of one aspect of my life I use some of the same tools in other areas.


The first wealth is health. Emerson
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:47 PM   #148
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n

I started a exercise routine about 2 years ago. I Also started taking a more active role in improving my health. I see it a normal outgrowth of the disipline I use to maintain my financial health. Once I felt how good it feels to have control of one aspect of my life I use some of the same tools in other areas.


The first wealth is health. Emerson
Interesting since both saving and fitness have an element of self discipline. But..... Anecdotally, there seems to be very little correlation between physical fitness and financial fitness.

Many unfit folks are that way because they are workaholics, who have little interests outside of work, so they tend to have high earnings and relatively low spending. I have known many very fit folks who are poor savers and very poor earners. I guess my point is that "self discipline" is only a component of financial "sense" and a small one at that. At the point income exceeds someone's "perceived" needs, savings or philanthropy is the result. Some people have very low needs or very high incomes.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:00 PM   #149
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Interesting since both saving and fitness have an element of self discipline. But..... Anecdotally, there seems to be very little correlation between physical fitness and financial fitness.

Many unfit folks are that way because they are workaholics, who have little interests outside of work, so they tend to have high earnings and relatively low spending. I have known many very fit folks who are poor savers and very poor earners. I guess my point is that "self discipline" is only a component of financial "sense" and a small one at that. At the point income exceeds someone's "perceived" needs, savings or philanthropy is the result. Some people have very low needs or very high incomes.
I agree despite Suze Orman's claim that they are correlated. I know too many fit folks to are financial dullards.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:39 AM   #150
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Interesting replies. It seems so far the whys include:
  • Lack of (personal finance/investing) education
  • Ability and interest are not necessarily correlated
  • Simple 'keeping up with the Joneses' is a (much) higher priority
  • [edit add]Some people plan to work as long as they can, retiring isn't a priority (yet)
If I missed another, it's unintentional.
I think the first criteria that cannot be over-emphasized is personal discipline. This must be number 1.

Without personal discipline in your life, it is hard to think beyond what you want today and what you need to do to secure my future. Without that it may be hard or impossible to decide at age 30 to take the 15 year mortgage instead of the 30 (or 40 year!). Without that is may be hard to insist that our kids learn these skills at an early age, and to lead them by example. Without that it is hard to resist 'tapping' our retirement accounts for a variety of reasons. Without that it is unlikely we will self-educate ourselves to questions fees, avoid chasing the next hot stock tip, or blindly expect to survive on Social Security.

A previous poster mentioned that personal discipline in physical fitness is not correlated to financial fitness. I agree, but think it should be looked at in a different way. There is overall personal discipline, and there is the type that is localized. Many have localized (i.e. physical fitness, not to take drugs, or alcohol or food to excess), but lack _overall discipline_. Overall discipline means you place your _wants_ in a secondary position behind your overall life plan. Most would agree that physical fitness and financial fitness are good goals. Some people have issues with any sort if internal discipline, and in this way those that have at least physical fitness discipline know what it takes.

Also, I wish to add that overall and financial discipline is not the same thing as being frugal. If you must be frugal by necessity, ok, but to be simply dramatically frugal without the need to be is not the same thing as personal discipline. We all have only one life, and should enjoy it. Doing so however requires personal discipline to achieve those goals for yourself and your family.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:58 AM   #151
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I am having trouble figuring how to make retirement planning into a HS or college class. First day of class you could spend 5 minutes explaining LBYM, 5 more minutes talking about compounding, 5 more minutes talking about the advantages of tax deferred plans, 5 more minutes talking about the magic of employer match, 5 more minutes talking about dollar cost averaging into an assortmant of funds, 5 more minutes talking about leaving it alone till you have enough to retire. Then a quick five minute review and class dismissed. What else do you need to teach for the rest of the semester? Saving and investing basics which is all you really need for at least the first two decades of the accumulation phase really is dirt simple.
And while you are talking, they are sending texts and updating their Facebook profiles, so they retain less than 1%.............
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:00 AM   #152
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And while you are talking, they are sending texts and updating their Facebook profiles, so they retain less than 1%.............
I think that would be a lot of what has to be overcome... they just aren't interested in it. You can make them take the class but most are going to see it as useless as taking physics, calculus , chemistry etc.

The basics could probably be done in a 1 hour seminar. 1) save 2) debt free 3) LBYM
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:02 AM   #153
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I can't post the 42-page NBER paper here (but I had to read it for work), but if you're interested, you can buy it for $5 (free if you have a .gov email address) if you're so inclined:

Financial Literacy and High-Cost Borrowing in the United States

Here's a summary, which ties in nicely with this discussion:

Demo Memo: The Borrowers

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In this paper, we examine high-cost methods of borrowing in the United States, such as payday loans, pawn shops, auto title loans, refund anticipation loans, and rent-to-own shops, and offer a portrait of borrowers who use these methods.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:23 PM   #154
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+2. I'd love to do that too, so if you figure it out...

I considered looking into a career with a local broker, but all of them require disclosing all our holdings and transferring them in house - that ain't happening. I am also concerned about inevitably being blamed by some customers expecting positive returns in down markets, I assume that happens a lot.
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When I bail on the day job...I want to figure out how to help with the basics of financial education for kids and adults.
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Brewer12345, when you figure that out, let me know. I also have dreams of doing this in my retirement years.
+2. I'd love to do that too, so if you figure it out...

I considered looking into a career with a local broker, but all of them require disclosing all our holdings and transferring them in house - that ain't happening. I am also concerned about inevitably being blamed by some customers expecting positive returns in down markets, I assume that happens a lot.


I've had the same inclinations and here has been my experience:

- While I was working in my post-Navy "career" I answered an ad from a major investment/mutual fund company in my geographic area for financial planner trainees. I was eventually put in touch with a retired Navy guy who worked for the firm. I told him that I'd like to get into this field to help people with their finances, help them avoid getting ripped off, etc. He told me in no uncertain terms that if I worked for them, my real job would be to SELL. As if to punctuate the point, once it became apparent that I and the company were not a good fit, he tried to sell me one of their mutual funds.

- Fast forward....I'm retired now and doing volunteer work at an inner city adult education center where I do literacy and basic math tutoring a couple of days a week. From what I pick up in listening to conversations, talking to tutees, etc. I see that these people, poor though they are, are still getting ripped off by payday lenders, high check cashing fees, income tax preparers, etc. I propose developing a financial literacy course and offer to teach it. The Center says great and I get ahold of a canned curriculum from the NCUA and customize it a bit to fit local needs. We hype the course but, in the long run, only a few people sign up and they eventually drop out.

- Fast forward again....I've relocated to VT an read in the paper that high schools in VT are going to be implementing financial literacy classes. State money has been set aside to train teachers how to do this. I track down the name of the guy at the local HS who is supposedly in charge of this. I send emails, leave voice mail messages, etc. offering to help in any way I can: teaching (as an unpaid volunteer), tutoring one-on-one, developing and/or reviewing curriculum or whatever. Never a call back.

So, at least in my own personal experience, getting involved in this sort of thing is easier said than done. I will be relocating to another part of Ne England later this summer and will probably try yet again to see if any one wants my help in this area as I plan to reaffiliate with a volunteer organization I've worked with before. We shall see if I'm any more successful.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:43 PM   #155
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I think that would be a lot of what has to be overcome... they just aren't interested in it. You can make them take the class but most are going to see it as useless as taking physics, calculus , chemistry etc.

The basics could probably be done in a 1 hour seminar. 1) save 2) debt free 3) LBYM
It depends. We homeschool our daughter who is in 11th grade now. She is not interested in academics at all. She has zero interest in getting a 4 year degree. She finds most academic work incredibly boring because she sees it as having no relationship to her life at all. Yes, yes, I don't necessarily agree with that - but that is how she feels.

So this past fall we did this textbook that was focused on very practical things about living. It taught her about things like: How banks work and how to balance a checkbook, how to buy a car, how to rent an apartment, how credit cards work and how to read a statement, how insurance works, how interest works, etc. She was entirely enthusiastic about this course and loved everything about it. She could see that this was stuff she needed to know and she could see how it has actual near term relevance in her life.

We are doing math online right now - ALEKS -- Assessment and Learning, K-12, Higher Education, Automated Tutor, Math - and she is about to do a short business math course. Some of the topics include:

Interest (17 topics)
Simple Interest (3 topics)
Simple interest and maturity value

Exact and ordinary methods for simple interest and maturity value

Solving for principal, rate, or time in simple interest problems


Promissory Notes, Simple Discount Notes, and the Discount Process (2 topics)
Structure of promissory notes: Effective interest rate and simple discount note

Discounting an interest−bearing note before maturity


Compound Interest and Present Value (5 topics)
Computing compound interest with the simple interest formula

Compound interest for daily compounding

Compound interest for annual, semiannual, and quarterly compounding

Nominal interest rate versus annual percentage yield

Present value tables


Annuities and Sinking Funds (3 topics)
Ordinary annuity


Present value of an ordinary annuity

Sinking funds

Installment Buying, Rule of 78, and Revolving Charge Credit Cards (4 topics)
Amount financed, finance charge, and deferred payment

Cost of installment buying: Computing the APR

Cost of installment buying: Computing the monthly payment

Revolving charge credit cards


Personal Finance (20 topics)
Banking (3 topics)
Checking accounts

Bank statement and reconciliation process: Basic

Bank statement and reconciliation process: Advanced


The Cost of Home Ownership (3 topics)
Monthly mortgage payment tables

Total cost of interest for a mortgage

Amortization schedule: Interest, principal, and new mortgage balance


Life, Fire, and Auto Insurance (6 topics)
Life insurance premiums

Insurance nonforfeiture values

Fire insurance premiums

Canceling fire insurance

Compulsory auto insurance

Optional auto insurance


Stocks, Bonds, and Mutual Funds (8 topics)
Reading stock quotations

Calculating return on stock investment

Stock yield, earnings per share, and price−earnings ratio

Stocks dividends

Reading bond quotations

Calculating bond yields

Net asset value of a mutual fund

Investment in a mutual fund



Business Finance (22 topics)
How to Read, Analyze, and Interpret Financial Reports (9 topics)
Balance sheet: Merchandising

Balance sheet: Service

Vertical analysis of a balance sheet

Income statement: Merchandising

Income statement: Service

Vertical analysis of an income statement

Horizontal analysis of financial statements

Financial projections

Financial ratio analysis

She is very excited about doing this course, as she can see clearly how it relates to her life. Anyway all this takes way more than hour. For example, I had her work on a budget for when she is out on her own. This took days for her to figure out how much things cost and then determine how much she could spend based upon expected early work earnings.

It is easy to LBYM, but lots of people have no clue how to do that.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:47 PM   #156
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Friar, good on you for trying. Your heart is in the right place.

I've had discussions with a neighbor who volunteers at a battered women's shelter. A program like this is on their wish list, as many of these women have never so much as written a check.

Keep trying! Someone somewhere will appreciate you.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:20 PM   #157
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Smart and dumb people are clueless about saving for retirement because it seems so far off and so hard to do. When confronted by advisers who spew numbers like "25x income" and "replacing 80% of income" people just turn off. In fact if they took time to look at the numbers they would probably have a heart attack.

I ran some numbers for what someone starting on $40k, 40 years ago would need to save to replace 80% of their gross income minus SS. I assumed 3% inflation so that after 40 years ie today the person's income would be $126k and the SSA website estimates they'd get $26.8k a year SS so they would need to replace 0.8*126k - 26.8k = $74k. Using 25x as the multiplier to provide that income in retirement they need $1.85M. Assuming 6% annual return over the 40 years of their working life they would need to save 19% of their gross salary to end up with $1.85M.

Maybe you don't really need to replace 80% of your income. If they saved 10% every year, with SS they'd have 50% of their final income. So anyone saving less that 10% of their gross income will need to be very frugal in retirement and will be highly depended on SS. I think that includes the majority of people. Many on this forum will have investments in the $1M range which is probably a reasonable number to retire on for a frugal, middle class person with SS and no pension. But as I've said many times this board is way way outside the norm and most 401k balances will never approach $1M, so the maths just doesn't work for most people with 401ks.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:00 PM   #158
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Was it Dave Ramsey that said that money is 80% emotional? I agree with the statement and it may help explain the OP paradox.
Are smart people emotionally wise? There could be an inverse correlation here. Maybe the "smart" are using their money to meet their emotional needs, like keeping up with the Jones, power issues etcetera. I wonder how you fit this into the money basics course. Dave Ramsey is not without fault but he is one of the few that address the emotional side of the issue well IMHO.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:55 PM   #159
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Smart and dumb people are clueless about saving for retirement because it seems so far off and so hard to do. When confronted by advisers who spew numbers like "25x income" and "replacing 80% of income" people just turn off. In fact if they took time to look at the numbers they would probably have a heart attack.

I think that is a good point. In this regard I found the following article interesting:

It's a 401(k) world and it sucks.

I particularly appreciated this statement:

Quote:
We know roughly how much people need to put away in order to retire with a standard of living they'll be comfortable with. And we definitely know what kind of investment vehicles are most appropriate for middle class savers. And we have abundant evidence that, left to their own devices, a very large share of middle class savers will make the wrong choices. What's more, because of the nature of the right choices it's obvious that the dominant business strategy for vendors of middle class investment products is to dedicate your time and energy to developing and marketing inferior products, since the essence of superior products in this field is that they're less remunerative.
I suspect that 401ks or similar vehicles have been very, very good for many of the people on this forum. However, I think we must acknowledge that the people on this forum are outliers compared to the general population. What works very well for the average person here or the average person on the Bogleheads forum, for example, doesn't work at all for the average person.
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Old 05-04-2013, 04:50 PM   #160
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I know a number of successful people who have virtually nothing saved, and it stems mostly from their attitudes about money. They consider it evil, the product of exploiting others, etc., so they whisper about it the same way one would about a divorce or a venereal disease. I'm a huge proponent that a long term curriculum should exist in all public schools to teach about personal finance. In K-3, kids should learn about saving, delayed gratification, etc. In 4-8, they should learn about work, taxes, etc. In 9-12 they should learn about investing, credit, debt and the rest.
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