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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-17-2005, 02:06 PM   #81
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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I didn't find Mr's Right until my late 30's and the 3rd try.* Without dwelling on the
Is this one of those "Canadian"marriages (you and two or more guys)?

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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-17-2005, 02:26 PM   #82
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Is this one of those "Canadian"marriages (you and two or more guys)?
Don't ask don't tell policy applies
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-17-2005, 02:26 PM   #83
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
I don't believe that this statement is true. Most of the world is born outside the United States. Their birth place is certainly not merit based. That single piece of luck may have more to do with their ultimate success than anything else they will be able to do. That does not mean their life won't be better if they are persistent and focused on trying to improve themselves. They still benefit from trying to achieve merit.

The luck vs merit case is made strongly by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics that clearly show that upward mobility is rare. Most people achieve about the same level of economic success as their parents. Unless you believe that your birth economic class is based on your own merit, I don't know how else to interpret this data. But knowing that luck is a critical factor does not keep me from trying to be an exception. Nor can I simply accept my fate and stop trying or I may fall in economic status.
I agree with the findings, but what are the reasons people stay in a similar economic class? I would describe my family as educated middle-middle class, DW's family is lower middle class/poor and DW and I will probably end up upper middle class (indeed, our income is already in the 90%, but that doesn't factor my area's high cost of living.) I would agree on the lower rungs, people just don't have the skills or the opportunity, or the example, of being succesful, but at our rungs, it seems more of a "comfort" thing, social dynamics/value systems/peer pressure. If everybody you know works at the plant, most likely so do you...

....being born in the U.S.A., is tremendous luck, though.
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-17-2005, 03:45 PM   #84
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

We should mimic Reagan, and adopt "Born in the USA" by Springsteen as a theme song.

Don't think they ever realized that was a "protest" song...
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 06:22 AM   #85
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by Laurence
I agree with the findings, but what are the reasons people stay in a similar economic class?* I would describe my family as educated middle-middle class, DW's family is lower middle class/poor and DW and I will probably end up upper middle class (indeed, our income is already in the 90%, but that doesn't factor my area's high cost of living.)* I would agree on the lower rungs, people just don't have the skills or the opportunity, or the example, of being succesful, but at our rungs, it seems more of a "comfort" thing, social dynamics/value systems/peer pressure.* If everybody you know works at the plant, most likely so do you...

....being born in the U.S.A., is tremendous luck, though.
I am not sure I buy this theory about how people generally follow the
prior generation's level of achievement (or lack of it). Personally, I blew
the doors off the (economic/status) levels reached by parents and grandparents.
But...........on my mother's side (further back) there were doctors and
ministers (also politicians, but we won't go there)

Here is a brief list of my closest high school friends; what their parents did
and where my friends ended up:

Friend: Successful farmer

Dad: Successful entreprenuer Mom: Homemaker

Friend: Corporate officer

Dad: Corporate officer Mom: Homemaker

Friend: Factory worker

Dad: Farmer Mom: Teacher

Friend: State HIghway worker (supervisory)

Dad: Truckdriver Mom: Homemaker

Friend: Successful entreprenuer

Dad: Factory worker Mom: Homemaker

Friend: RN

Dad: Early ER (unusual back then) Mom: worked in grocery store

Friend: Chiropractor

Dad: Barber Mom: Homemaker

Friend: Postal worker (retired)

Dad: Farmer Mom: Homemaker

Interesting how many of the women were homemakers. Reflects the era
I grew up in.

JG
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 12:57 PM   #86
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by Eagle43
Bad luck, man, being born outside the U.S. is bad luck. * We have it so good here, and I am so thankful (lucky?) that I was born here.* I believe that anyone can have a middle-class living in the U.S. by doing the following things:* (1)* get a high school education; (2) get and stay married and (3) get a job and keep working.* The qualifiers to the above are mental and physical health, of course, and I would add one more, LBYM.* One of the reasons I believe this is I was poor.* But I did the three (college degree, though), and am not rich but sure as hell ain't poor no more.* And, if you really LBYM, and invest 10% or more, you too can retire early.*
I don't consider myself to be cursed with "bad luck" because I was born outside the U.S. Actually, achieving the "American Dream" is easier to do in Canada apparently:


"Turns out, the American dream is playing out more strikingly north of the 49th parallel, says Canadian economist Miles Corak, editor of a recent book exploring generational mobility in Europe and North America."

and:

"’The U.S. dream is probably more relevant here than it is the U.S.,’ Corak said.

Among rich countries studied, Corak said, Canada ranked with Denmark, Norway and Finland at the top of the pack in terms of intergenerational mobility. The U.S., the United Kingdom and France are the least mobile."

It must pain the ’wingers to think that their cherished mythology of the infinite possibilities of American upward mobility now only exists in lands controlled by gay commies. The article gives the specifics:

". . . one-fifth of the income advantage is inherited across generations in Canada. In the U.S. and the U.K., almost one-half is inherited.

Corak also cites U.S. research showing that almost one-half of children born to low-income parents become low-income adults, which means they fall in the bottom 25 per cent of income distribution. In the U.K, the tally is 40 per cent.

Children in high-income families, about four in 10, tend to become high-income adults in the U.S. and U.K., he said.

By contrast, there is significantly more movement between generations in Canada.

Corak says studies show that for every 100 people born at the bottom rung, one-third end up at the bottom, and almost one-fifth end up at the top.

For every 100 people born at the top in Canada, only one-third remain at the top."

The death of the American Dream in America has been rather quietly noted in the American press. It is entirely a matter of tax policy and government investment in access to education. Jon Talton of the Arizona Republic gets it:

"In magisterial work for the New York Times, reporter David Cay Johnston has documented the rise of the hyper-rich, the top 0.1 percent of income earners. These 145,000 people are leaving everyone else far behind, even those who would be considered wealthy. From 1980 to 2002, the latest year where data are available, the share of total income earned by the hyper-rich more than doubled. That earned by the bottom 90 percent of taxpayers declined.

Johnston’s research also makes it clear that the new nobility was the chief beneficiary of the Bush tax cuts. Those helped create a deficit that will, we are told, force cuts to Social Security and college aid, among other programs.

Speaking of college aid, Jackson watchers also probably missed news that the federal government has changed the rules for Pell Grants. That, combined with declining state support for universities, will keep a record number of Americans from getting a college education.

These facts show some of the reasons the Wall Street Journal recently looked at the data and concluded that upward economic mobility has largely stalled in the United States. This historic ability to get ahead through hard work is the ’American dream.’"

The United States became the world’s most wealthy nation through years of prudent reinvestment in its human capital. Since Reagan - and clearly accelerating under Bush - it has been clear American public policy to squander its advantages through ruinous tax cuts and a reduction in social spending. How does this play out in the real world? Toyota recently passed up significantly higher subsidies offered by southern American states to build a car plant in the Ontario town of Woodstock. Why?:

"’The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States,’ said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers’ Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant."

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use ’pictorials’ to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

’The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ontario,’ Fedchun said.

In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson."

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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 02:23 PM   #87
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by Calgary_Girl
Toyota recently passed up significantly higher subsidies offered by southern American states to build a car plant in the Ontario town of Woodstock. Why?:

"’The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States,’ said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers’ Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant."

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use ’pictorials’ to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

’The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ontario,’ Fedchun said.

In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson."
You know what other country besides Canada has a high literacy rate? Cuba! Those commie bastards...
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 02:25 PM   #88
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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I am not sure I buy this theory about how people generally follow the
prior generation's level of achievement (or lack of it).* . . .
And we wouldn't expect you to "buy it" just because it is a statistical fact. * *Never let the facts get in the way of your own opinion, John.
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 02:47 PM   #89
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use ’pictorials’ to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.
Well...no sh!t Jack. Do a little research next time before you plunk down big bucks for a facility.
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 04:35 PM   #90
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

Or maybe hire LITERATE workers for those jobs, and put the illiterate ones behind a broom.

As an aside, all of the four kids in my family have exceeded my parents, in terms of education level and income.
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 04:44 PM   #91
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by Have Funds, Will Retire
Or maybe hire LITERATE workers for those jobs, and put the illiterate ones behind a broom.

As an aside, all of the four kids in my family have exceeded my parents, in terms of education level and income.
That is true for most people. What the statistics show is that if their parents were in specific percentile group in income, the children tended to end up in close to the same percentile group. Since average income is rising significantly, this means that most children earn more than their parents.

I haven't seen the data on education, but I imagine the same thing is true.

Of course there are exceptions. I am one myself. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there are a large number of exceptions on an ER board.
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 05:15 PM   #92
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by Calgary_Girl
I don't consider myself to be cursed with "bad luck" because I was born outside the U.S. Actually, achieving the "American Dream" is easier to do in Canada apparently:


For every 100 people born at the top in Canada, only one-third remain at the top."

The death of the American Dream in America has been rather quietly noted in the American press. It is entirely a matter of tax policy and government investment in access to education. Jon Talton of the Arizona Republic gets it:

...cut....
In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson."

Well, it may be paradise on earth, but... there is a brain drain. Guess where they're going, these smart Canadians

http://www.cric.ca/en_html/guide/brain/brain.html

Apparently your healthcare has a few problems.* That would be the one you're trumpeting.

http://isuma.net/v01n01/contandr/contandr_e.shtml
Here's a snippet of that link:* Transformation of the healthcare system is inescapable

For months now, the healthcare system has been in the print and broadcast news almost daily. Horror stories (about overcrowded emergency rooms, poor quality of care, inequitable access to resources, financial scandals, medical errors) have been reported alongside news on the wonders of modern medicine and technology (new medications, potential breakthroughs in treatments for major diseases, genetic miracles, the possibilities offered by alternative medicine, grafts, remote diagnosis and treatment by means of telemedicine, universal access to quality medical information on the Internet, and so on).
-------------------------------------
And, thanks to google, I found a Canadian John Galt(real name Mitch), who is a CPA and a tax accountant, who has some views about your outrageous taxes and how they stagnate the economy.

http://cdnjohngalt.blogspot.com/2005...s-tale-of.html

Oh heck, let's just post this guy... make him famous...

Friday, February 25, 2005
Canada versus the United States - the tale of a whole lot of tax forms and schedules

Today I took the time out of my busy schedule to actually take a stab at what the tax differences where from where I live in Michigan versus where I used to live in Ontario. So out with the calculators, the schedules, and all that and here is what I found out:

Assumptions:

I took the median U.S. household income. Which is $45,000. No interest, no capital gains - just wages.

Family of four - two kids under age 16.
No special deductions for either Canadian or American taxes - assumed they took the basic exemptions allowed to them.
This hypothetical family lives in Michigan for U.S. tax purposes and Ontario for Canadian purposes.
The U.S. wages will be coverted into Canadian dollars at $1CDN = $0.80 US.
But some of my more liberal Canadian friends would say, and to paraphrase Jean Crouton, "Canada is the best place in the universe because we have 'free' health care paid for by our taxes." Let's be fair, and we'll tack on an extra $5,000 U.S. to the Americans wages as an offset fo the health insurance benefits paid for by his employer. We'll leave the Canadian wages at $45,000 U.S. converted to Canadian dollars, which is $56,250.

Here are the results of this little experiment:

American household:

Gross wages: $50,000 USD
Federal taxes: $1,459
Michigan taxes: $1,437
Total taxes : $2,896
Effective tax rate: 5.8%

Canadian Household
Gross Wages: $56,250
Federal taxes: $ 6,375
Ontario taxes: $2,069
Total taxes: $8,444
Effective tax rate: 15.01%

As you can tell, there is a huge difference in effective tax rates - if you doubled the wages in both cases, the differential would be even larger. And this is with the American family taking the standard deduction: if they had a typical house, they could itemize their deductions and write off property taxes, state taxes, mortgage interest, and charitable deductions to name a few and have larger tax savings. These options are not available to Canadians.

Of course this is a rudimentary comparison, only meant to give one the huge differences in taxes one would pay in either country. This goes a long way to explaining why Canadian incomes have stagnated over the past 20 years while U.S. incomes have shown real growth.
Unquote....

If this guy's numbers are correct, your taxes are killing you.*

Hmmmm, there's trouble in Paradise! Hey, the U.S. still has upward mobility.* The upwardly mobiles are from Canada!*
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 05:47 PM   #93
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by Calgary_Girl
Actually, achieving the "American Dream" is easier to do in Canada apparently...
A different view I posted earlier this year:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion...221/21john.htm

Summary: If you want to leave the US for Canada, this is what you will find:

* Strange and maddening football games
* More Canadian music than you can imagine.
* Except for murder, a rate of violent crime as disgraceful as that of the United States.
* A national political leader every bit as hard to look at as George Bush.
* Perplexing food decisions.
* The customary problems of socialized medicine.
* A national infatuation with censorship.
* Canada's trying to be European

I'm not bashing Canada, as I have much respect for my friends from the Great White North. Just pointing out the grass isn't necessarily greener north of the 49th parallel...



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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 06:13 PM   #94
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
A different view I posted earlier this year:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion...221/21john.htm

Summary: If you want to leave the US for Canada, this is what you will find:

* * * Strange and maddening football games
* * * More Canadian music than you can imagine.
* * * Except for murder, a rate of violent crime as disgraceful as that of the United States.
* * * A national political leader every bit as hard to look at as George Bush.
* * * Perplexing food decisions.
* * * The customary problems of socialized medicine.
* * * A national infatuation with censorship.
* * * Canada's trying to be European

I'm not bashing Canada, as I have much respect for my friends from the Great White North.* Just pointing out the grass isn't necessarily greener north of the 49th parallel...



I did like
Gordon Lightfoot and Joni Mitchell. Also, some great fishing. And, Toronto
used to be my fav. big city and my fav. restaurant was once located in Canada.
The romance is over now. Couldn't handle the weather nor their firearms
laws.

JG
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 06:19 PM   #95
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
I'm not bashing Canada, as I have much respect for my friends from the Great White North. Just pointing out the grass isn't necessarily greener north of the 49th parallel...
I like Canada too. These are my favorite Canadians of all time, this is what I see in my minds eye when I think of the typical "Up There" people:

The Mackenzie brothers don't have any brain drain, they just drain that good Canadian beer, real good, eh?

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Old 10-19-2005, 06:39 PM   #96
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

Canada? Isn't that the country they named after some bacon?
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 07:20 PM   #97
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
And we wouldn't expect you to "buy it" just because it is a statistical fact. * *Never let the facts get in the way of your own opinion, John.
I saw the NY Times 'Epic' on class mobility and it was, well, pretty much what you would expect from the NY Times. The Wall Street Journal had a similar, but much smaller report, which cited a study that actually followed specific individuals over time and chronicled their experiences (rather than just looking at bulk data) and it came to a very different conclusion.

I couldn't tell you who's "facts" are the better reflection of reality, but I can tell you that a healthy majority of the people I know make SUBSTANTIALLY more than their parents did. That's not scientific. It's just my experience.
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 07:25 PM   #98
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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And we wouldn't expect you to "buy it" just because it is a statistical fact. * *Never let the facts get in the way of your own opinion, John.
I'm pretty good at separating "facts" from B.S.

JG
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 07:29 PM   #99
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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I'm pretty good at separating "facts" from B.S.

JG
Huh . . . You've managed to hide that ability pretty well on these boards.
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
Old 10-19-2005, 07:39 PM   #100
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Re: ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy

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Huh . . . You've managed to hide that ability pretty well on these boards.* *
That's because I'm so unfailingly polite and courteous and wouldn't dream of causing hurt feelings, even if I do encounter a babbling idiot from time to time. I've always been polite to you haven't I?

JG
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