Is ER a perculiarly America concept

[W2R]

That may be true for whites in this country. Minorities? Well it's a bit more complicated.

Special circumstances do occur. Ask my black friend A. at work about that. He grew up in similar circumstances to those I described, though in rural North Carolina. Right now is earning over 6 figures, after serving his country in the Marine Corps and going to college on scholarships and G.I. bill. He has a lovely mansion, a two year old Buick Rendezvous, and is sending his kids to college. Plus, he has a substantial federal pension or pensions in store for him if he ever decides to retire, since he is in the old pension system. His siblings are doing equally well, also, as I recall (though I don't know them and they don't live here, so I can't really supply details there). I am sure others here know of analogous success stories.

We can ALWAYS find reasons for failing in life, though it's not always a helpful pursuit. I think that what you can give your kids that helps more than money, is a driving ambition, work ethic, patience, and a love of, respect for, and desire to pursue higher learning.

 

[Lsbcal]

i can't wait for the supermarket to open tomorrow. gruyere, yummy. thank you.

You're welcome! Now all I have to do is learn how to spell it ... gruyere !!

 

[nun]

Believe me, they struggled and did not have the advantage of having any contact at all with successful people (such as we have right here on this discussion group). Yet almost 100% of their children and grandchildren are professionals with graduate degrees (surgeons, engineers, CPA/CFO's, and college professors) and my grandparents' last years were comfortable. This was a great country with mind-boggling opportunities then, and still is. To say that we have a rigid class system into which we are born, and cannot escape, in my opinion is pure bunk. That's not to say that life is always easy for everyone.

I'm of the opinion that if you work hard you can succeed no matter where you live. What I disagree with is the idea that it's necessarily easier in the US than other places. In countries with with more even distribution of health services and better education systems more people can achieve their potential. I like many things about the US, but the thing that worries me most about the place is the lack of self criticism when comparing to other countries. It betrays a basic insecurity.

 

[kombat]

I'm of the opinion that if you work hard you can succeed no matter where you live. What I disagree with is the idea that its necessarily easier in the US than other places.

I'm not sure what you mean - it most definitely is easier in the US than in some other countries. For example, countries with a rigid caste system, or countries where religion and culture forbid certain demographics (specifically, females) from even getting an education, let alone exposing their face in public (gasp!) or owning their own business.

 

[W2R]

I'm not sure what you mean - it most definitely is easier in the US than in some other countries. For example, countries with a rigid caste system, or countries where religion and culture forbid certain demographics (specifically, females) from even getting an education, let alone exposing their face in public (gasp!) or owning their own business.

Back in the mid 1970's my ex had an opportunity to make a lot of money in Saudi Arabia, but that was the one point at which I just put my foot down!!! Even though living there might be fine for some people, personally I cannot even IMAGINE myself living someplace where I couldn't drive, and had to cover my face, live in an American compound, or whatever. I really like the opportunities that have opened up for women in the U.S. in the past half century, too. Many do not seem to realize what tremendous opportunities we have here, compared with some other countries.

 

[Lsbcal]

...One of the things I would like to do is to take my children to France to spend three months learning French (the time to do it is now while they are still little); ...

One thing I did after ER was to enter and win a trip to Paris from a local radio station. Well, it turned out to only cover part of the airline fare but it got things started. So my wife and I took a conversational French class before going. We had a great time over there. Met some interesting people in northern and central France, partly because my wife caught some nasty bug ... so we saw a few French doctors. Everyone we ran into was pleasant. There were no negative political statements. Everyone was very polite about our attempts to mangle the language and then switched to English. Had a nice conversation with a French lady while sitting at a McDonald's outdoor cafe and drinking a coke (something like $4 and no refills) on the Champs Elysee. They were very excited over there because they were having their election and chose Sarkozy. Some long faces and happy faces the day after. The Paris doctor seemed mostly to want to talk about her hopes for Sarkozy. Anyway, I could go on but we Americans should realize the French have their right, center, and left much like we do here (OK, there center is probably to our left). They have much tragedy in their history and it has left its mark.

Now I just finished another JC class in French. Plan on doing more. It is enlightening, uplifting, and very humbling to try to learn another language. You can do it at any age too. Au revoir.

 

[nun]

I'm not sure what you mean - it most definitely is easier in the US than in some other countries. For example, countries with a rigid caste system, or countries where religion and culture forbid certain demographics (specifically, females) from even getting an education, let alone exposing their face in public (gasp!) or owning their own business.

Yes the US is easier than some places, but don't go thinking its the best just because its the US. I've lived in a few places that IMHO give better opportunities to more of their citizens. Also I was amazed when I first came to the US how important where you went to school was. Going to Choate or Phillips seemed far more important that your ability. It was worse than where I grew up -- and that was the UK

 

[Letj]

I'm not sure what you mean - it most definitely is easier in the US than in some other countries. For example, countries with a rigid caste system, or countries where religion and culture forbid certain demographics (specifically, females) from even getting an education, let alone exposing their face in public (gasp!) or owning their own business.

Is that the standard you would use to compare America? Come on, you're more intelligent that that. Let's compare America with her equals, ok.

 

[kombat]

Is that the standard you would use to compare America? Come on, you're more intelligent that that. Let's compare America with her equals, ok.

Personally, it doesn't bother me who you compare the US to - I'm Canadian! I was merely pointing out that there are many countries which do not treat their citizens equally, whereas the US offers many more opportunities are available to those willing to work for them.

If you were to ask me, I would say that Canada offers even more opportunities still, what with our cheaper education, equal access to health care, discrimination laws, etc.

 

[Lsbcal]

...I would say that Canada offers even more opportunities still, what with our cheaper education, equal access to health care, discrimination laws, etc.

Discrimination laws! Here we don't need laws to discriminate, that's free !!!

 

[Letj]

Personally, it doesn't bother me who you compare the US to - I'm Canadian! I was merely pointing out that there are many countries which do not treat their citizens equally, whereas the US offers many more opportunities are available to those willing to work for them.

If you were to ask me, I would say that Canada offers even more opportunities still, what with our cheaper education, equal access to health care, discrimination laws, etc.

I think you missed my point. I am suggesting that you cannot compare the US with countries that are steeped in tradition and whose citizens are mostly poor and illiterate. Don't expect women to have much rights in those countries. As a matter of fact, don't expect much rights period.

 

[kombat]

I think you missed my point. I am suggesting that you cannot compare the US with countries that are steeped in tradition and whose citizens are mostly poor and illiterate.

Why can't you? They're sovereign countries, so where's the problem? Why don't they count when considering how much worse off people could've had it if they'd only been born elsewhere?

Nun said:

I disagree [...] that its necessarily easier in the US than other places.

Meaning he appears to believe that it is just as hard or harder to move up the economic/social ladder in the US as it is in other countries. I was merely pointing out that it is in fact a great deal harder for certain types of people (women, minorities, etc.) to advance themselves in some other countries.

I fail to see why those countries should be ignored - nobody said we were only allowed to compare western nations, or secular nations, or whatever.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

I haven't come across any UK or European forums as good as this one... so thank you all for creating such a great community... I truly feel like I am amongst kindred spirits. Fantastic - let's all continue being "not normal"

excellent first post aspire. welcome.

ps. be careful. this forum really can get to you. i had a dream about gruyere cheese last night. oddly enough the spelling on the package was missing an r. but when i looked closer at the packaging it was spelled correctly elsewhere. i wonder if maybe i need to reoccupy my brain with work.

 

[Trek]

i had a dream about gruyere cheese last night.

Kinky!

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

it was more a dry toast dream.
isbcal, don't worry about spelling. as i said, the first time i tried to spell gruyere it came out camembert.

 

[Milton]

You want Ugly American?? This quote is real - off the calling card of one of my company commanders way back when:

Your Name Here
CAPT, USMC
Travel to far off beautiful places
Meet friendly, wonderful people
And kill them

Maybe you don't like the reality of it, but that pretty much summarizes the last several wars our soldiers have fought so you can live as a free person.

You've been watching Jack Nicholson's rant in A Few Good Men too many times.

 

[aenlighten]

I view ER as

an aspiration towards becoming landed gentry so common in England, but one arrived at via work rather than inheritance.

 

[Trek]

I don't know if it's is just an American concept, but it seems that Americans have more reasons to want to ER vs other wealthy developed countries where people could ER but don't.

I see so many people joining the boards or starting posts where they talk about wanting to ER because they hate their job, they're burned out, over stressed, just can't take it anymore, etc. You rarely hear people want to ER that absolutely love their job but would rather hang around the house and post on the internet all day. It seems a lot of members keep jobs they hate because they're frightened to lose their benefits including health insurance. These things are not applicable to everyone, but it's the general perception I get having been a member of the forum for about a year.

I can't speak for everyone, but you might find some reasons why many Europeans don't consider ER as frequently. Most get somewhere between 4-6 weeks annual vacation and are expected to take every bit of it. They don't fear losing their job to someone that will forgo their vacations. You don't have to keep a job you hate for health insurance benefits. You can find a job you like because you're covered regardless of where you work or what you do. Women can take from 3 months to 3 years maternity leave (depending on the country) with no fear of losing your job. No need to rush back to your crappy job 3 weeks after you have a baby cause you have to pay for daycare and keep your health insurance.

Many Europeans pay more into social taxes while they work that gives them a gov't pension when they hit retirement age, so most spend their money on their elaborate month long vacations and toys (kind of live in the present) and don't have to "eat rice and beans" for years trying to save for retirement. Along with the pension, most things (in Estonia anyway) are free for seniors or at greatly reduced prices.

And it may very well be there are some society pressures where you are expected to do something if you're fit and healthy and ER would just brand you as lazy and not contributing to society (unless, say, you generously volunteered your free time to a worthy cause, which would be seen as "doing something").

So I think that if Americans didn't have such a miserable work life and could get some quality balance, ER would be a much less popular concept than it is. Me though, I'm just lazy so it wouldn't matter either way.

 

[Lsbcal]

I don't know if it's is just an American concept, but it seems that Americans have more reasons to want to ER vs other wealthy developed countries where people could ER but don't.

At first I felt defensive about your post but after thinking about it I agree. As Americans we are pretty much stuck with the system we are born into. Of course, we can try to change it in small ways -- like ER'ing and chatting about it on the web (while be brag about all the fun things we get to do now ). It is not really that bad a system though compared to all the others out there. Sometimes I read about other social systems and am a bit envious. But there are, of course, tradeoffs and if you are smart about it you can have a good time in the economic system you inherited.

And it may very well be there are some society pressures where you are expected to do something if you're fit and healthy and ER would just brand you as lazy and not contributing to society (unless, say, you generously volunteered your free time to a worthy cause, which would be seen as "doing something").

So at what age is it OK to retire in your country? What downsides to your system do you see? I am really curious.

 

[Trek]

But there are, of course, tradeoffs and if you are smart about it you can have a good time in the economic system you inherited.

First, in case you didn't know, I'm an American citizen too and FIRE'd, but I live overseas. And I agree America doesn't have the worst system in the world either. I mean, look at Somalia.

So at what age is it OK to retire in your country? What downsides to your system do you see? I am really curious.

Well, it's a free country and you can retire whenever you want. But to qualify for your state pension men have to work until 63 and women to 59. If you asking about the downsides specifically to the retirement system here in Estonia, I think the current system is pretty cool and offers a lot of personal control to financing one's retirement. But a small population with a declining birth rate together with an aging population is a strain on the system (something many other places face). So they are slowly increasing the retirement age over time (eventually to 65 for both men and women) to help ease that strain.

And Estonia has some very specific problems such as many poor elderly people (mostly Russian speaking former factory/farm workers) that lost their jobs when Estonia regained it's independence in 1991 are going to continue to live in poverty until death and receive only the minimum state pension allowed. They fell through the cracks created between the old Soviet system and the current Scandinavian/Western system.

And I'm sure there are other downsides I'm not aware of not being in the pension system myself. I'm not saying it (or any other system) is perfect. And most of the more enviable systems in the world couldn't be replicated in the U.S. even if you wanted to. The U.S. has a huge population, a huge bureaucracy and a runaway immigration problem that would be a big impediment to implementing a better system (whatever that is).

 

[beowulf]

You've been watching Jack Nicholson's rant in A Few Good Men too many times.

That card was used around 1971. And if the US wasn't here to defend you, you would probably be speaking German or Russian now. It really is that simple. We can just stick to ourselves of course, how good is your Arabic??

 

[unclemick]

Before Katrina - they had that card posted for a while near the take out/order pick up window - South Side Cafe. Nerves of steel - I always wore a Navy logo baseball cap when picking up their wonderously good sirloin burgers or even more rarely - Po Boys at Mother's.

Marines turn into real sweeties when they get old, retire, and take up cooking!

Both still in business.

heh heh heh - ER has a sport aspect - the earlier you cross the finish line(ER) - the more you can brag. Of course you can do like some old football coaches - relapse and get back in harness just cause you miss the game. I won't repeat the old stockbroker ad.

 

[Dreamer]

I strongly disagree with this. If you look at all the nickel and dime taxes we pay in the country and please do include social security compared to what we get in return, Canadians and Europeans pay a heck of lot less than us. In many European societies, you don't even have babysitting expenses. Do you have any idea what babysitting cost in America? Try $1,000 to $1,500 per week per child and that's at a day care center!

I am sure the above amounts must be typos? Did you really mean that babysitting costs in America run $52000.00 to$78000.00 per year per child That is absurd.

Also, I worked for the federal government and enjoyed my job for the most part. I earned a decent salary, had 26 work days of vacation per year and all of the federal holidays, earned 12 sick days per year, took a 3 week vacation one year (normally took 1 or 2 weeks at a time) and was able to take my health insurance with me, but still wanted to take an early retirement. I have the feeling that I would have wanted the early retirement no matter where I lived.

 

[Milton]

That card was used around 1971. And if the US wasn't here to defend you, you would probably be speaking German or Russian now. It really is that simple.

Hmmm, 1971. That would be the Vietnam fiasco: an entirely pointless war that the USA ultimately lost, at a tremendous cost of financial and human resources.

Nothing was gained by that futile endeavour. Perhaps things aren't so simple after all.

 

[Letj]

I am sure the above amounts must be typos? Did you really mean that babysitting costs in America run $52000.00 to$78000.00 per year per child That is absurd.

That should read per month.