Is ER a perculiarly America concept

[beowulf]

You should check around more.

A lot of different places offer people a better life.

That is true - but even when most of them get where they want to be, they have limited opportunities to do anything but survive. And lots of them leave because their country is getting chewed up by war. And leaving is a lot better than dying. In the US, immigrants actually succeed and can move up the ladder through hard work and pure guts.

And to respond to another post: "That is most preposterous. Virtually all OECD countries have in-migration, and the G7 (plus Australia) have the most in-migration. It is also an insult to suggest it is hard for Canadians, Australians, Brits, Francophones, etc to move up the socio-economic ladder. As an example, the vast majority of the Top 100 in Canada (in wealth) is based on new money"

Having in-migration is not the same as having people willing to die to get into those countries. And I never mentioned Australians, Canadians, and whatever Francophones are (new type of cell phone??) - I did point out England because it is extremely hard for lower class working folks to have their children attend universities. There is a definite pyramid that takes a lot of fighting to climb.

As to Bill Gates - yes, I agree, his family is wealthy, but they had nothing to do with his success with Microsoft. It's not like some of the other old money families that will buy businesses or positions for their children. So I do believe he is totally self-made.

 

[Milton]

Having in-migration is not the same as having people willing to die to get into those countries.

Many undocumented immigrants / refugee claimants have risked death using unseaworthy vessels to attempt illegal entry into Australia, Canada and Italy ... among other nations.

That is true - but even when most of them get where they want to be, they have limited opportunities to do anything but survive.

Absurd. Immigrants to most countries (including America) face significant hurdles (language, education, financial, cultural) on the road to success. But the great majority persevere and eventually thrive. Some first-generation immigrants actually assume positions of huge financial clout in their new countries: for example, Canada has Thomas Bata and Frank Stronach.

Whatever Francophones are (new type of cell phone??)

This is the sort of distainful stupidity ("ignorant ... and proud of it!") that gives rise to the "Ugly American" stereotype abroad.

I agree that America is a land of opportunity and does not have "the most rigid social class system". It's laudable that you challenged that remark, but regrettable that you went on to make patently inaccurate statements about other countries.

 

[Milton]

For what it is worth, a number of studies have been done that show the aggregate tax burden for individuals (income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, capital taxes, FICA, health insurance) is not much different between Canada and the US.

Sounds plausible.

It is erroneous to differentiate between the ability to afford private health insurance with universal health insurance paid for via income taxes.

I'm not expert, but I suspect that while the above comment is likely true for the middle class, it is less so for the poor and the rich.

 

[Hamlet]

This is a ridiculous statement.

Anyone who is reasonably smart and hard-working is able to do quite well in this country. If they get some good luck as well, they can end up extremely wealthy.

My grandfather on my dad's side was a Lutheran minister. He and my grandmother were poor but not destitute. They had 4 children.

My dad got my mother pregnant when they were 17. Not exactly a dream start to building wealth, but he joined the Navy, got into their nuclear program, and now runs a nuclear power plant. He does very well for a man with no degree. I don't know what he makes, but it is much more than I make (about 90k). If he didn't own a boat, he could probably retire at 55

My uncle started selling cars after he dropped out of college. He is a gifted salesman, and is now the sales manager at a large car dealership. He is very affluent.

One of my aunts is very marginally employed. Her marriage ended badly, and she has never been good at providing for herself. She gets by with some help from my grandmother, my dad, and my uncle. Her children are struggling but seem to mean well.

My other aunt is a complete waste of air and food. She's on and off drugs, and has been scamming my grandmother and anyone else that has tried to help her for the last 30 years. Last I heard, her children were petty criminals. My grandmother still tries to help her. My dad and uncle are done throwing good money after bad.

These four children all started in the lower to lower-middle class, but two of them are in the very upper-middle class wealth-wise. One of them is lower-middle class, and one of them is a complete failure economically and personally.

Your starting place in this country makes a difference, but you can have great success with modest beginnings. Most important is that your parents teach you to work hard and not to live beyond your means.

Bad parents are a bigger disadvantage than poor parents. If you combine the two, though, you are going to have real trouble moving up.

Actually the US has the most rigid social class system. Its very hard to move up the socio-economic ladder in the US

 

[Lsbcal]

Oh no, another food fight . Guess I'll just retire for the day, I'll go have my glass of Cabernet and a piece of good guyere cheese and read my copy of The Birth of Plenty. Could care less about moving up a social ladder.

 

[beowulf]

"This is the sort of distainful stupidity ("ignorant ... and proud of it!") that gives rise to the "Ugly American" stereotype abroad. "

Why would someone post the name of countries and then put in a term that's obscure to probably 90% of the rest of the world? Yes, I know it means French speaking - but that does not mean France - lots of places are French speaking. So the term is totally out of place in a list of countries and I was trying to put some humor on it.

As to the Ugly American part, I haven't seen too many examples of countries that turn down our aid and genorosity. If we are that bad, they don't have to take anything from us - as a taxpayer, it certainly won't offend me. You want Ugly American?? This quote is real - off the calling card of one of my company commanders way back when:

Your Name Here
CAPT, USMC
Travel to far off beautiful places
Meet friendly, wonderful people
And kill them

Maybe you don't like the reality of it, but that pretty much summarizes the last several wars our soldiers have fought so you can live as a free person. Pretty much the same as the old one about the French objecting to something or other that the US had done and asking us to leave - with the response being "Would you like us to also take the bodies of all our men who died fighting for your freedom on your soil?"

Semper Fi

 

[toofrugalformycat]

It is erroneous to differentiate between the ability to afford private health insurance with universal health insurance paid for via income taxes. They are the same thing except one is theoretically voluntary while the other is not.

Ah, but they are not the same. You have to have more than money to get private health insurance. You also have to have chosen your ancestors well, so you do not have pre-existing conditions that cause private insurers to exclude you. So in my case, having made poor decisions as a primordial germ cell, private insurance is not an option, at least where I live.
Lucky for me I could get a low-paying gubmint job that eventually provided health care and pension. But not everybody can do that.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Oh no, another food fight . Guess I'll just retire for the day, I'll go have my glass of Cabernet and a piece of good guyere cheese and read my copy of The Birth of Plenty. Could care less about moving up a social ladder.

gruyere!!! i'm so glad i read through this thread. i was at the store the other day when i wanted cheese for a nice omelet. my favorite sidewalk cafe does these scrambled egg & smoked salmon crepes with gruyere but i couldn't think of the cheese so i came home with camembert which of course was all wrong.

i can't wait for the supermarket to open tomorrow. gruyere, yummy. thank you.

 

[Trek]

Maybe you don't like the reality of it, but that pretty much summarizes the last several wars our soldiers have fought so you can live as a free person. Pretty much the same as the old one about the French objecting to something or other that the US had done and asking us to leave - with the response being "Would you like us to also take the bodies of all our men who died fighting for your freedom on your soil?"

If you're going to get into historical wars, maybe you could thank the French for helping us to win the American Revolutionary War so that you could live as a free person in America. Without their sacrifice there would likely have been no United States of America, no Marine Corp, and I dare say, no ER forum!

They helped us first. We owed them one. But you don't see them rubbing that in our faces every time there is a foreign policy disagreement.


In early 1778, shortly after an American victory at Saratoga, France signed treaties of alliance with the new nation, and declared war on Britain that summer.

French involvement proved decisive, with a French naval victory in the Chesapeake leading to the surrender of a British army at Yorktown in 1781.

The northern, southern, and naval theaters of the war converged in 1781 at Yorktown, Virginia. In early September, French naval forces defeated a British fleet at the Battle of the Chesapeake, cutting off Cornwallis' escape. Washington hurriedly moved American and French troops from New York, and a combined Franco-American force of 17,000 men commenced the siege of Yorktown in early October. Cornwallis' position quickly became untenable, and he surrendered his army on October 19, 1781.

With the surrender at Yorktown, King George lost control of Parliament to the peace party, and there were no further major military activities on land.

Financial costs - The French spent 1.3 billion livres (about £56 million). Their total national debt was £187 million, which they could not easily finance; over half the French national revenue went to debt service in the 1780s.

Historical assessment -The war of American independence could be summed up as a civil war fought on foreign soil, as opposing forces comprised both nations' residents. That said, it is a war that America could not have survived without French assistance.

American Revolutionary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aspire2FIRE]

If by "peculiar" you mean "different from the usual or normal", well, then, yes, perhaps it is.

I'm based in the UK and I would entirely agree with Nords that ER (or even better FIRE) is "different from the usual or normal". I think this is true in every country though (including the US) because achieving FIRE takes a degree of discipline and determination that most people don't have. Most people I know choose to "play now and pay later" but I suspect the majority of people on this forum choose to "pay now and play later".

Personally, I am fortunate to enjoy a good job with lots of holiday but I would still far rather achieve FIRE and have the freedom to choose how I spend my time (with my family, travelling, giving my time to charity etc). As a result, although I am in my mid-30s I now manage to save and invest in excess of 50% of my earnings.... certainly not "normal" but necessary given my desire to FIRE.

I haven't come across any UK or European forums as good as this one... so thank you all for creating such a great community... I truly feel like I am amongst kindred spirits. Fantastic - let's all continue being "not normal"

 

[nun]

As cheesy as it may sound, the US really is a land of unlimited opportunity for those who are willing to take the risks and do the work.... how many of today's billionaires and millionaires came from totally humble, if not downtrodden, roots.

I bet most millionaires inherited their wealth.

I think you've been drinking the cool aide if you think its easy to move up the social ladder in the US. Sure its not impossible, but a kid has to over come the terrible public education system first. The single most important tool to help a child progress is education and that's where the US fails. next you'll be saying that the US style of representative democracy is the best in the world, rather than a corrupt 2 party state.

 

[REWahoo]

I bet most millionaires inherited their wealth.

EDIT: Never mind. I'm not going to get drawn into this food fight...

 

[nun]

As to the Ugly American part, I haven't seen too many examples of countries that turn down our aid and genorosity. If we are that bad, they don't have to take anything from us - as a taxpayer, it certainly won't offend me. You want Ugly American?? This quote is real - off the calling card of one of my company commanders way back when:

Your Name Here
CAPT, USMC
Travel to far off beautiful places
Meet friendly, wonderful people
And kill them

Maybe you don't like the reality of it, but that pretty much summarizes the last several wars our soldiers have fought so you can live as a free person. Pretty much the same as the old one about the French objecting to something or other that the US had done and asking us to leave - with the response being "Would you like us to also take the bodies of all our men who died fighting for your freedom on your soil?"

Semper Fi

US Foreign Aid comes with lots of strings attached, and as a %age of GDP the US gives less than most countries. It does give lots of milirtary aid though, the largest recipients being Israel and Egpyt.

I agree that the US seems to get involved in lots of foreign wars, however, if its doing so for any other reason that its own security I think the Founding Fathers would turn in their graves.

 

[kombat]

I bet most millionaires inherited their wealth.

Well that part is easily provably false. According to Thomas J. Stanley's book The Millionaire Mind, only 2% of millionaires inherited their wealth. The other 98% earned it themselves, or are "first generation millionaires."

I don't know how accurate his numbers are, but I'd be shocked to find he was off by more the more than 48% he'd have to be in order to validate your assertion that "most" inherited their wealth.

Another study published in the Real Property, Probate, and Trust Journal paints a slightly more detailed picture, yet still clearly shows that very few millionaires inherited their wealth:

Millionaires fit the following description: only 19% receive income or wealth from a trust fund or estate; fewer than 20% inherited 10% or more of their wealth; more than half did not inherit any wealth; fewer than 25% received $10,000 or more from parents, grandparents, or other relatives; 91 % did not receive the ownership of a family business as a gift

I think you've been drinking the cool aide if you think its easy to move up the social ladder in the US.

This point is a little harder to disprove, but suffice it to say I don't think anyone claimed it was "easy." Merely that it's not impossible. It certainly still takes a great deal of effort. It helps to have the right attitude.

a kid has to over come the terrible public education system first. The single most important tool to help a child progress is education and that's where the US fails.

I'd say having good parents and a good attitude are more important than the quality of the public education system. After all, lots of kids are homeschooled, completely bypassing the public school system. Lots of them end up very successful, and lots of them end up down-and-out; just like the public system.

I'd suggest that as long as a child can read and has a good understanding of basic to intermediate math, then they have all the skills required to be very successful in life. Learning another language, memorizing historical dates and facts, carrying out chemistry and physics experiments are a good way to keep kids busy while their parents are at work, but I don't think they're at all necessary in order to mold a child into an intelligent contributer to society. Thus, if the system does a poor job of teaching kids those meaningless dates, foreign language, literary works, or other topics, I don't really believe it matters all that much. As long as the kid can read and understand math, I believe they have all the tools they need to be successful.

If our schools are graduating alarming numbers of illiterates incapable of understanding compound interest, then I'd agree we have a problem.

Next you'll be saying that the US style of representetive democracy is the best in the world, rather than a corrupt 2 party state.

I think the fact that the US chose to install a democratic system in Iraq that is different from its own is a tacit admission that its own system is imperfect.

 

[Trek]

If our schools are graduating alarming numbers of illiterates incapable of understanding compound interest, then I'd agree we have a problem.

Illiteracy Statistics

• 42 million American adults can't read at all; 50 million read at only fourth or fifth grade levels.
• The number of functionally illiterate adults increases by approximately 2.25 million each year.
• 20 percent of all graduating high school seniors are functionally illiterate.

Source: National Right to Read Foundation


Grim Illiteracy Statistics Indicate Americans Have a Reading Problem -- Education-Portal.com

 

[W2R]

suffice it to say I don't think anyone claimed it was "easy." Merely that it's not impossible. It certainly still takes a great deal of effort. It helps to have the right attitude.

In general, expecting to have millions of dollars handed to us on a silver platter is not very productive. Even those who might expect to inherit are not guaranteed to get a cent. From kombat's statistics (and from what I have seen thus far in life) the surest way to become a millionaire is to fight your way up the ladder on your own.

I'd say having good parents and a good attitude are more important than the quality of the public education system. After all, lots of kids are homeschooled, completely bypassing the public school system. Lots of them end up very successful, and lots of them end up down-and-out; just like the public system.

I think many of us are, or know examples of, people of humble origins who have done well in life. My grandparents were hillbillies in a remote part of the Ozark mountains, with just a first and third grade education. They had no lucky breaks and no connections, and they had four children providing hungry mouths to feed before they were 20. Then as if that miserable life wasn't tough enough, their tiny, rock filled tomato farm failed. My easy-going, very countrified, and not-so-ambitious grandfather struggled to find any work at all during the Depression and even during normal times in such a depressed area. It gets worse - my grandfather even became totally blind due to retinal detachments right after WWII, at around age 50 - - - just in time to miss the booming post-war economy.

Believe me, they struggled and did not have the advantage of having any contact at all with successful people (such as we have right here on this discussion group). Yet almost 100% of their children and grandchildren are professionals with graduate degrees (surgeons, engineers, CPA/CFO's, and college professors) and my grandparents' last years were comfortable. This was a great country with mind-boggling opportunities then, and still is. To say that we have a rigid class system into which we are born, and cannot escape, in my opinion is pure bunk. That's not to say that life is always easy for everyone.

 

[beowulf]

I bet most millionaires inherited their wealth.

I think you've been drinking the cool aide if you think its easy to move up the social ladder in the US. Sure its not impossible, but a kid has to over come the terrible public education system first. The single most important tool to help a child progress is education and that's where the US fails. next you'll be saying that the US style of representative democracy is the best in the world, rather than a corrupt 2 party state.

Kombat pretty much said all I would want to say about these issues. Nun seems to have a real hard time with current American society and I'm kind of curious as to where this attitude comes from? Our public education system served my wife and I very well, our kids very well and pretty much everyone I know very well. Those we know who did not succeed in life failed primarily out of a lack of desire to do so. A proud graduate of PS 91, JHS 79, a Bronx High School and CCNY. All still decent schools that provide good educations.

And to quote someone I can't remember at all "Representative democracy is the worst possible form of government available, except for all the others." Yes, we are flawed, but I really don't see any better alternatives to representative democracy out there.

 

[Letj]

I think most people around the world and certainly Europeans tend to strike a much better balance between work and play than Americans. I can't imagine that ER would be big on your mind when it's mandated by the government that you should get six weeks a year and the average person seem to get 8 weeks; time that you can use however you want to. Many Europeans take their six weeks consecutively and go off to the beach, the country or wherever. Americans tend to take one week at a time. I know that it would certainly raise eyebrows if I decide to take two consecutive weeks of time off. Quite frankly, I don't dislike working; what I dislike is my inability to take extended time off to travel or spend with my family. One of the things I would like to do is to take my children to France to spend three months learning French (the time to do it is now while they are still little); well how will that work in a work obsessed culture like this one where this activity would be perceived as slacking off?

One of the reasons why European have so much more leisure time than Americans is due to the role unions have historically played in society.

 

[Letj]

The real reason the Japanese men do not want to retire is that their homes are on average about 600-650 sq ft...and that includes room for all their possessions and their wife. The wives don't know what to do with the "gomi" (garbage) after he is retired. So, they insist he either stay employed or seek re-employment. Everyone thinks Japan is a "men's society"....well, now you know who the real boss is...

R

Not surprising given an area with almost half the population of America and a tiny fraction of the size of America plus the cost of housing. Rambler you got to tell the whole story when you make a post like that; you don't want people thinking that this is a voluntary situation.

 

[kombat]

• 20 percent of all graduating high school seniors are functionally illiterate.

This is the one I found most disturbing. Is it really possible that high schools are graduating kids who can't read? How is that possible? In my opinion, there are only two explanations:

1. The US school system is an enormous failure, and is graduating students who cannot even read; or
2. The study's authors are using a very custom-tailored definition of "functionally illiterate" in order to suit their agenda and provoke increases in funding.

Although 1 seems more shocking and news-worthy, I think 2 is the more likely explanation. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that 20 percent of all high school graduates literally cannot read. What does "functionally illiterate" mean, according to the study's authors? If a person can read slowly, does that count? What if they can't correctly pronounce complicated and obscure medical terms? What if they don't understand the difference between "there/they're/their" or "its/it's" - does that count? I think there's a lot of critical variables being intentionally omitted here.

 

[Letj]

On the other hand, Americans enjoy substantially lower taxes, so they are able to save/invest more money than Canadians and should thus be in a position to afford private health insurance in ER.

I strongly disagree with this. If you look at all the nickel and dime taxes we pay in the country and please do include social security compared to what we get in return, Canadians and Europeans pay a heck of lot less than us. In many European societies, you don't even have babysitting expenses. Do you have any idea what babysitting cost in America? Try $1,000 to $1,500 per week per child and that's at a day care center!

 

[Trek]

What does "functionally illiterate" mean...

Functional literacy
Reports about levels of literacy often refer to functional literacy as the borderline separating the literate from the illiterate. The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development defines functional literacy not as the ability to read and write but as "whether a person is able to understand and employ printed information in daily life, at home, at work and in the community".

Literacy definitions and quotations

 

[kombat]

The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development defines functional literacy [...] as "whether a person is able to understand and employ printed information in daily life, at home, at work and in the community".

Is this saying that 1 in 5 high school graduates (not drop-outs, not flunk-outs, but people whom the school deemed had learned all they had to offer) cannot read a "STOP" sign?

Something doesn't smell right. Where are these schools that are handing out diplomas to people who can't even read them? How can someone get a passing grade on a math exam or history quiz when they can't even scrawl their name on the paper?

 

[Trek]

Where are these schools that are handing out diplomas to people who can't even read them?

Probably the inner-city. Ever been to D.C.?

 

[Letj]

Yet almost 100% of their children and grandchildren are professionals with graduate degrees (surgeons, engineers, CPA/CFO's, and college professors) and my grandparents' last years were comfortable. This was a great country with mind-boggling opportunities then, and still is. To say that we have a rigid class system into which we are born, and cannot escape, in my opinion is pure bunk. That's not to say that life is always easy for everyone.

That may be true for whites in this country. Minorities? Well it's a bit more complicated.