Non retired spouse

[Ydog]

I was in your wife's shoes for about 5 years so I can provide some insight into it. In the beginning, my husband expected me to do what I had always done. From my point of view, i didn't see why I had to work a long day and come home to domestic stuff and then do the heavier cleaning on my week-ends when DH was at home all day. The first 6 months were very hard and boy was I grumpy! There is nothig worse than you have some dragons at work I needed to slay that morning and my HD asking where is this or that because actually looking under papers would be too hard or commenting on how relaxing his day was going to be. I just stopped doing anything except some grocery shopping or cooking when I felt like it.

After that, we worked out responsibilities. My husband did take laundry and only ruined a couple of sweater by washing them in hot water. I took responsiblity for the cleaning since I could do it on the way home. I did change the our roles. I handled all the financial items and he did the home items. I still resented him having a life he was enjoying so much while I had a job I hated but I was able to keep the feeling under control now that I didn't have to do the housework also.

Now that I have been retired for 1 month, we once again are diviting up the chores and I am a lot happier.

 

[theoldwizard]

Oh, please. I bet she'd be "willing" to let you do your own laundry, ...

That upsets her more ! "Doing a small load is a waste of soap and water !"

Towels, napkins, and dishrags would be an unexpected bonus.

I do wash those about 50% of the time.

For someone who claims to be interested in improving marital harmony you sure are raising a lot of objections. I wish you luck in your learned helplessness...

You stop doing things (like cleaning) when you get criticized for not meeting someone elses standards. I figure if she doesn't like the house cleaner, we can always hire a different one.

 

[theoldwizard]

The only thing I can add is about the dirty dishes. I think that some women were brought up by their mothers to ALWAYS do the dishes right after dinner...not to wait until later. Dishes are done, lights off and the kitchen is closed for the night. Next morning, everyone wakes up to a clean efficient kitchen that's breakfast ready. It makes waking up for the woman of the house much better-even before her coffee.

Yep ! You are 100% correct on this one (except she doesn't drink coffee) !

 

[theoldwizard]

... My husband did take laundry and only ruined a couple of sweater by washing them in hot water.

I did that 31 years ago. She still has not forgiven me !

Now you know why I am not allowed to touch the laundry!

I have asked her NOT to iron my jeans and T shirts. She says, "But then they look wrinkled" She actually gets upset if I sneak them out of the to-be-ironed pile. Sigh.

 

[theoldwizard]

I guess the thing that inspired me to write this thread was the lecture I got about asking a question of her while she was getting her breakfast and lunch ready. (And don't anyone suggest that I should be doing that for her. I have been told to stay out of that.)

A simple "Yes" or "No" would have sufficed.

 

[travelover]

............If she doesn't like it she can leave.........

Yea, right. Along with 1/2 your pension, 1/2 the 401(k) and IRAs, 1/2 the value of the house and other property.

 

[Sandy]

IMHO your problems sound deeper than division of labor and seem to have been this way for awhile. With your employment change, you are looking for other changes as well. This will not be an easy road.

 

[Moemg]

Sounds like you need marriage counseling much more than a housekeeper !

 

[haha]

I guess the thing that inspired me to write this thread was the lecture I got about asking a question of her while she was getting her breakfast and lunch ready. (And don't anyone suggest that I should be doing that for her. I have been told to stay out of that.)

A simple "Yes" or "No" would have sufficed.

I recently visited and exited the area you are talking about. IMO, it can't work for you, unless you are totally spineless and devoted to survival in that situation at all costs. Even there you will likely get angry at what you may come to see as nit-picking, nagging, over-controlling attacks on your self esteem. She already is angry about something- maybe housework, maybe some other thing or things. It may be that these weird controlling demands are only a semi-socially acceptable substitute for other complaints and dissatisfactions. If she will talk honestly with you, you may be able to have fruitful and respectful discussions about what is working and not working in each of your lives.

However, once you become identifiably angry it's all over, as you have fallen into the trap lovingly prepared by years of feminist training and mental conditioning. Angry wives are righteous, as men are clueless pigs, sloppy housekeepers, and controlling monsters. Angry husbands on the other hand are pitiful, deluded and likely dangerous beasts.

Probably your least traumatic exit would be to return to work- any work that she will recognize as work so as to give legitimacy to your autonomy. Something physically exhausting might be good- like working for a landscaper.

I recommend stepping back and imagining that a good buddy of yours was telling you this about his wife and home situation. How would you interpret that? What would you privately think he should do? Or even could do? Sometimes we can see more clearly if we step back and change perspectives.

Good luck amigo,

Ha

 

[ERD50]

Wow, people are piling on.

oldwizard, let me give a more generous view of this.

First, I'll admit, there looks to be some need for communication here, but...

In some ways, I've seen this with my wife. I swear, there are areas that she sort of says she wants help with, but it seems she REALLY wants to do those things herself, and resents me helping her.

I can sort of understand that - I might 'complain' about having to fix the toilet, but I really do think of that (and general house/car maintenance, computer set up, etc) as 'my domain'. I would be a bit miffed if she took it upon herself to dig through my tools and start a maintenance job herself. I would be concerned that she would do it wrong or screw up my tools or something.

I think some people get a bit protective about what they view as their 'domain' (I'm trying hard not to use sexist associations like woman-cleaning-cooking, men-fix-blow-up-stuff - it can go either way).

My wife *claims* she wants me to help more with cooking, but every time I offer to go to the grocery store with her so we can plan some meals that I can cook, it always, 'no - you have stuff to do, no need for both of us', and then she rarely ever spells out what we are having when, so that I could cook it. I really do think she sees this as 'her thing' and takes pride in serving great meals to her family. When she does specifically ask me to cook something (if she's running late or something), I do. - and gladly. It's just hard to get her to commit upfront to any schedule.

So, I should probably communicate more on this too, but I'm not so sure it's as dark as people are painting it. Think about that, open up a little at a time, and see what happens.

-ERD50

 

[Texas2step]

Yea, right. Along with 1/2 your pension, 1/2 the 401(k) and IRAs, 1/2 the value of the house and other property.

I would just make sure I got the better half. All the money in the world is worthless if you are stressed out and unhappy.

 

[Moemg]

Probably your least traumatic exit would be to return to work- any work that she will recognize as work so as to give legitimacy to your autonomy. Something physically exhausting might be good- like working for a landscaper.



Ha

Maybe you would not even have to go to work .You could just dress up a few times a week and mumble something about consulating then when she leaves you could come home and relax !!

 

[Nords]

I retired (after 31 years) about 6 months ago, because of an offer from my company "that I couldn't refuse". My dear wife still has about 5 -6 more years to get her pension from the local school system.

Things seem to be getting a bit "strained" around the house, so I would like some input from others, especially the fairer sex !

First, my wife, who is an above average house keeper, stopped house cleaning after I retired, just to see if I would start doing it. Well, I outlasted her, mostly because she usually does not like the way I clean house anyway. I did offer to hire a housekeeper, but she said, "I would have to clean before she/he came !" It took the better part of a week to get things back to the way she likes them.

Second, DW, pointed out that I had not done much additional cooking, especially while she was working (although we eat out/have carry out more than ever). I agreed and now that school is back in I have cooked dinner a couple of time. Well, last night, I said I would do the dishes in the AM only to have her start them at about 9:00PM (she has to get up at 5:30AM), after I had settled down to watch TV in the family room. I don't understand this, other than she dislikes dirty dishes.

This AM, while she was getting her breakfast and lunch ready, I asked if she knew if we had some ingredients for dinner tonight. Instead of a simple "Yes" or "No", she gave me a 60 second "lecture" on why I shouldn't ask her questions like that in the AM.

I'm nervous about where this is going. I would like to retire with this lady and have told her she can quit anytime she wants and we will be okay. (Her pension and benefits would be nice, but I'm pretty certain we can make do without it.)

She won't let me do grocery shopping either. 1) She hates making grocery lists ("If I see it on the shelf in the store, I'll remember we need it.") 2) She says that even when she does make a list I forget things (which is true)

However, I'm the one who has to run to the store for the dozen eggs or gallon of milk. There have been days when I have made 3 or 4 runs like this in less than 3 hours.

She won't let me touch the laundry, unless it is towels !

That upsets her more ! "Doing a small load is a waste of soap and water !"

I do wash those about 50% of the time.

You stop doing things (like cleaning) when you get criticized for not meeting someone elses standards. I figure if she doesn't like the house cleaner, we can always hire a different one.

I did that 31 years ago. She still has not forgiven me !

Now you know why I am not allowed to touch the laundry!

I have asked her NOT to iron my jeans and T shirts. She says, "But then they look wrinkled" She actually gets upset if I sneak them out of the to-be-ironed pile. Sigh.

I guess the thing that inspired me to write this thread was the lecture I got about asking a question of her while she was getting her breakfast and lunch ready. (And don't anyone suggest that I should be doing that for her. I have been told to stay out of that.)

A simple "Yes" or "No" would have sufficed.

Well, heck, Wiz, you have all the answers. I give up.

You're absolutely right about everything and she's totally wrong. The best thing for you to do would be to ignore every wrong thing she says and to do what you know is right. If she doesn't see it your way then she'll just have to do it herself. She'll have to come around to your way of thinking or else quit working to take care of everything at home again, and either way you "win". You don't want her financial support anyway.

I'm done here.

 

[chinaco]

I am in the opposite situation. Since DW will ER soon... I am looking forward to her being able to take on more home chores. I believe it is only fair.

Well... to be fair, you posted your side of the story in your voice. She probably has a different tale to tell.

Unless you have a rocky relationship anyway, she must not see it the way you are telling it.

Something is out of whack soldier... better figure something out.

Heck... if nothing else, you might consider hiring a "Stealthy" housekeeper. Don't get caught.

A couple of things to consider:

• The other girls at work may be helping it along.
• If she hates her job... you might be the dog that is getting kicked (think psychology 101)

 

[Moemg]

What I think is interesting is the issue is always housework or cooking ? What if the shoe were on the other foot and the guys came home and complained because we did not seal the deck ,or mow the lawn or take out the garbage ? If we women want help with the housework when the guys are retired shouldn't the guys expect help with their chores if we are the ones retired ? Is Ha right have the women in America turned into bullies ?

 

[Martha]

What I think is interesting is the issue is always housework or cooking ? What if the shoe were on the other foot and the guys came home and complained because we did not seal the deck ,or mow the lawn or take out the garbage ? If we women want help with the housework when the guys are retired shouldn't the guys expect help with their chores if we are the ones retired ? Is Ha right have the women in America turned into bullies ?

Interesting point. The thing about housework and cooking is they need to be done day in and day out. Sealing the deck, only once in a while. Even mowing is rarely more than once a week. Add up the hours.

I have never liked to cook and I don't do a good job of it either. Fortunately, Greg does like to cook and is an excellent, intuitive cook. Now that I am retired too, he has tried to get me to cook at least once a week. I admit I am not very good about that. I understand his need for a break but I sure am resistant to filling in. I do a good part of the post cooking clean up. I do help with tasks like chopping veggies.

BTW, I most often am the one who mows the lawn because I like to mow the lawn. Garbage has always been taken out by the person who decides it is full. No big deal about it.

 

[W2R]

What I think is interesting is the issue is always housework or cooking ? What if the shoe were on the other foot and the guys came home and complained because we did not seal the deck ,or mow the lawn or take out the garbage ? If we women want help with the housework when the guys are retired shouldn't the guys expect help with their chores if we are the ones retired ? Is Ha right have the women in America turned into bullies ?

It seems like it is a lot more common these days for women to mow and take out the trash, than it was 50 years ago. At least, that has been my observation. A husband who will take out the trash without having to be told to do it, and without having to have someone hand it to him all sealed up and ready to go, is pretty cool!

 

[TexasGal]

Want2,

I agree. Nothing makes my heart beat a little faster than a man who does chores without being asked . . . does them from start to finish without any discussion.

A guy who breezes through household (inside and/or outside) chores and takes some responsibility for what needs to be done . . . is beyond cool . . . he is s e x y to me. Guess my definition of "sexy" has changed over the years.

 

[theoldwizard]

Maybe you would not even have to go to work .You could just dress up a few times a week and mumble something about consulting then when she leaves you could come home and relax !!

I like that suggestion and it just might work !

She would catch on if there as no income (she handles the money expenses). Although money is NOT an issue in this marriage (especially since between my pension and my investments I'm going to make more this year than I did last year )

 

[Zipper]

I retired (after 31 years) about 6 months ago, because of an offer from my company "that I couldn't refuse". My dear wife still has about 5 -6 more years to get her pension from the local school system.

Things seem to be getting a bit "strained" around the house, so I would like some input from others, especially the fairer sex !

First, my wife, who is an above average house keeper, stopped house cleaning after I retired, just to see if I would start doing it. Well, I outlasted her, mostly because she usually does not like the way I clean house anyway. I did offer to hire a housekeeper, but she said, "I would have to clean before she/he came !" It took the better part of a week to get things back to the way she likes them.

Second, DW, pointed out that I had not done much additional cooking, especially while she was working (although we eat out/have carry out more than ever). I agreed and now that school is back in I have cooked dinner a couple of time. Well, last night, I said I would do the dishes in the AM only to have her start them at about 9:00PM (she has to get up at 5:30AM), after I had settled down to watch TV in the family room. I don't understand this, other than she dislikes dirty dishes.

This AM, while she was getting her breakfast and lunch ready, I asked if she knew if we had some ingredients for dinner tonight. Instead of a simple "Yes" or "No", she gave me a 60 second "lecture" on why I shouldn't ask her questions like that in the AM.

I'm nervous about where this is going. I would like to retire with this lady and have told her she can quit anytime she wants and we will be okay. (Her pension and benefits would be nice, but I'm pretty certain we can make do without it.)

#1 If you are retired you should make her breakfast, pack her a lunch and have supper ready for her when she gets home. The kitchen, sink, and dishes should be spotless.

#2 You should do the grocery shopping, put the garbage out, cut the lawn and keep minor house maintenance in check.

This is the minimum you should be doing.

#1 works wonders.

 

[theoldwizard]

Well, heck, Wiz, you have all the answers. I give up.

You're absolutely right about everything and she's totally wrong...

I understand your sarcasm and that is why I am concerned and am "airing my dirty laundry" here.

In my career, I used to have a job where I was the "go to guy". I had to be right about everything and consequently, I usually got "my way". Only one person would ever stand up to me a say, "Let's try it another way". He became my best friend.

While I do like to have my own way (don't we all ?) I hope I am capable of listening to alternatives.

I'm trying to pick up more of the load, especially cooking, but I feel like I'm still "in training" and need extra advice/assistance. DW feels that I should just "know how to do things" to her way. That, and I don't like to be criticized for not meeting all of her standards.

 

[Sue J]

For us I've always been the one doing most the household stuff while my husband worked for a living. I do everything involved with all the food in the house (shopping, planning, preparing) laundry, bill paying and banking, and all the errands. Sometimes I find time to do seasonal projects, but yardwork, etc. is mostly his domain.

On the few occasions when I have been gone all day or been involved in a time consuming project, the thing I appreciate the most is if he thinks of something for dinner and gets stuff prepped. Thaw something out and decide on a side dish and make sure we have what we need. That takes care of most of the burden.

So far we are planning that he retires in a little over 6 years at age 58 1/2. He'll have a pension and he thinks he may want to work part-time in some kind of low stress job. I don't mind sharing some of the household tasks. But I'm the one here who is conservative and watches for waste and conserves resources. The stuff that will be difficult for me to get used to is all the lights he leaves on all day, him using 6 paper towels for something that I'd use just one, annoying things that would be done better MY WAY. I'm going to have to find a mantra that I can use to help me give up control and let him help around the house. I know it's my problem, not his, especially if he's trying to contribute.

 

[Achiever51]

...
In my career, I used to have a job where I was the "go to guy". I had to be right about everything and consequently, I usually got "my way". Only one person would ever stand up to me a say, "Let's try it another way". He became my best friend.

While I do like to have my own way (don't we all ?) I hope I am capable of listening to alternatives.

I'm trying to pick up more of the load, especially cooking, but I feel like I'm still "in training" and need extra advice/assistance. DW feels that I should just "know how to do things" to her way. That, and I don't like to be criticized for not meeting all of her standards.

Aha, now we're getting somewhere. You need to remember that when you retired, you didn't trade in one job for another. Performance reviews and bonuses are in your past -- now you get to figure out how to live the rest of your life without a job description, annual goals and a paid support staff. As has been said numerous times, retirement is not a destination but a journey. And you have to figure out your role with your partner.

When I retired last December, my DH actually made a list of the tasks he thought I should accomplish over the next several months -- including some pretty heavy-duty renovation projects that I had neither the talent nor the inclination to even try! Unlike your spouse, my still working hubby was more than ready to [-]dump[/-] turn over all the chores that he routinely did over the past thirty years. (And btw, I carried my share of the household duties despite a grueling work schedule of 50+ hours of work weekly and some international travel.) The first few months of my retirement were tense to put it mildly -- with him expecting a report on my day when he came home...and me resenting that he wanted an account of how I spent my time! This wasn't working out and I was starting to read the want ads to get out of the house!

Anyway, we realized that we were heading down a path where we didn't want to go and finally sat down and really talked it out. A lot of our issues were about the changing roles we were taking on. Our routines were different and so were our expectations -- but until we talked it out, I didn't know and neither did he how these changes were being internalized.

Bottom line? I'm trying to do some of the things that he normally did -- like cutting the lawn, taking the cars in for service, etc. -- so that he has a bit more time to play/relax/unwind when he gets home. Do I make mistakes? Of course! (For example, I probably will never get the hang of using the gas trimmer on the lawn...so I leave that part for him.) Some things he's specifically asked me NOT to do -- and I won't even try. But looking around the house, I see lots of stuff that needs to get done, that I'm capable of doing, and that he appreciates when he gets home.

Good luck with your issues, TOW. I hope you can work them out.

 

[Zoocat]

Here is an article about late life divorce

A House Divided

Yup. It's hard to change attitudes and routines at this stage of life. It takes some real effort from real grownups to go through midlife and retirement with a marriage intact.

Ditto to everything that Nords wrote.

Also, my former husband, who has a Ph.D., couldn't do household chores, find things, cook a reasonably tasty meal, IF he didn't want to. If he decided he wanted to, then he was an expert and would tell ME how to do things. So it goes. It's a choice. And some men don't want to do the household stuff, cooking, shopping. They want to go about their usual routine, having everything taken care of for them. Some women are willing to go along with this, some aren't.

You'll find out where the two of you fit in this scenario then you'll have some hard decisions to make. (And maybe you'll find out that living with those decisions will be even harder.)

 

[Zoocat]

I like that suggestion and it just might work !

She would catch on if there as no income (she handles the money expenses). Although money is NOT an issue in this marriage (especially since between my pension and my investments I'm going to make more this year than I did last year )

This attitude is a real problem.She's a grownup woman, not a child who might "catch on" to your trick. Sigh. Good thing she is going to have her own pension.