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Old 12-27-2007, 12:30 PM   #301
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So, Bongo, after all of these 300 or so posts, I still can't figure out why the heck you're hanging out on the E-R Forum. You obviously believe that ER is a waste of one's potential, and detracts from the well-being of society. So why are here? Is it just to stir the poo and be a troll? Is it a fetish? I don't get it.

Why not hang out in forum that is more apropos for you? One like "Work Until I Die".

These are rhetorical questions....no need to answer (though you probably will). I probably won't see your response anyway, 'cause I'm going back to the "Bacon Flow Chart"....at least that's something useful!

So hang in there and keep plugging away, day after day after day with your nose to grindstone......contributing to society......until you're old enough, or dead enough, to quit w*rking without any sense of social guilt on your head. As for me....I'm going to squander the rest of my life on leisure and self indulgence, without one milligram of guilt about not being "productive" or giving back to society!

Now quit reading these posts, and get back to w*rk! You're being a slacker....and society won't stand for that!


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Old 12-27-2007, 02:43 PM   #302
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Well, let's see.

1. I could sell my house, drag my kids to some lower cost place to live, refuse to contribute to their college education, scale back my lifestyle to a bare minimum and ER now. I agree, that this would put my family out considerably and be selfish. But I might enjoy it more than being in harness to megacorp.

2. Or, I could keep working and living responsibly LBYM, providing a nice upbringing for my kids until they are grown. Then take my pile and retire quietly.

3. Or, I could keep working long after I no longer need the money and have no intention of spending it. I suppose I could develop wasteful habits. But I would satisfy someone else's notion of "work ethic" that means nothing to me.

4. I could launch into a lucrative new career as predatory loan officer, peddler of dangerous materials I label as "patent medicine", importer of tainted third world products, bidder on sweetheart no-bid contracts for overpriced ordinary items or some other scam artist.

As I understand it, Bongo says #1 and #2 are selfish, but #3 and #4 are okay.
I think #1 and #4 are selfish, while #3 is just stupid. Like millionaires who engage in fraud and get themselves sent to jail, when they were already set for life.

I have read what's been written here, but am still convinced my assessment is correct (or at least the only one that matters to me). I cannot imagine the argument that would convince me otherwise. Bongo has NOT convinced me otherwise and has only convinced me that there is something else behind his arguments, which he has not yet divulged.
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Old 12-28-2007, 07:56 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Zathras
Bongo, I retired at 39 and live in the midwest. I have had negative reactions from no one. As a matter of fact, everyone I have told has been happy for me.
Thanks Zathras. Can you help me understand the difference between your post yesterday, and your post last year where you seemed to say you were very uncomfortable with people knowing you are retired?

Retirement Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireup2025
Why in the world would one not freely admit they were retired?
Check out the threads I linked at the beginning of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goonie
I still can't figure out why the heck you're hanging out on the E-R Forum.

These are rhetorical questions....no need to answer (though you probably will).
If you insist! As I said before I'm planning to retire early in a couple of years, and this is the best place to learn all the tricks and traps. As Nords said it's the best of Fatwallet, TMF, and others with 1/100th the posts to wade through. Where else am I going to hear stories like Zathras'?
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:42 AM   #304
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So then you believe that you're selfish (or planning to be) and you're okay with that.

...And the beat goes on...
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:45 AM   #305
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Oh yeah, and

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Old 12-28-2007, 08:46 AM   #306
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"As I said before I'm planning to retire early in a couple of years"

Again, what is the purpose of this thread? You claim that we are all selfish in our ER way of thinking and yet you plan to do the very same thing.
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:56 AM   #307
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Thanks Zathras. Can you help me understand the difference between your post yesterday, and your post last year where you seemed to say you were very uncomfortable with people knowing you are retired?

Retirement Guilt
I will try to help you understand, however you have to try to accept other ideas that don't match yours
Nothing has changed from that post of mine.
None of my friends nor family have been anything but happy for me.
Due to my own fears and insecurities and a desire not to brag or rub the fact that I am retired in anyone's face, I don't announce the fact to everyone I meet.
My family knows, my friends know, a couple of my neighbors know. No bad attitudes from any of them.
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Old 12-28-2007, 09:53 AM   #308
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Old 12-28-2007, 10:31 AM   #309
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I thought it might be the same cat for a second...
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Old 12-28-2007, 11:56 AM   #310
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So, is that pancake going to taste like p.....? Nah, I can't state the obvious.
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Old 12-28-2007, 12:45 PM   #311
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So, is that pancake going to taste like p.....? Nah, I can't state the obvious.
Must not post............
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This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
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Old 12-28-2007, 01:27 PM   #312
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I can't say I have had any negative reactions, only wishing they could too. I think there is a work ethic in society that when someone inherits wealth, they should try to make a contribution, whether through charity, creation, education, or politics. This is much less in force when they have earned their money though. Most work probably is irrelevant to society and more time filling then productive of happiness. It only provides those without the means to provide for themselves any other way, the means to provide for themselves.

There is no finite number of jobs, but there is a finite number of good jobs at any point in time based on peoples productivity. People aren't interchangeable cogs in the economic machine. Their ability, education, experience, and skills tailor them for some to the exclusion of others. Taking a job they don't need can deprive someone else of it and force them into a job they are less suited for, or direct them into an area with more growth. It may or may not be good. On the margin, an additional worker only raises productivity through lowering wages. Only through creation, discovery, and innovation can it be raised without lowering wages. I dare say if we were doing this, we would probably still be working because those are very satisfying.

I think most people do seek to contribute, because contributing can be enormously satisfying and can fill life with meaning, but one shouldn't be surprised if the means to contribute disappear, satisfaction can vanish, and meaning be lost. Most careers have a finite lifetimes, some such as acting, artists, athletics, creation, and entertainment, are usually quite short. If they can find another that brings them as much joy, all the better, but it is a rarity to find even one. Just think of ER as unemployment, standing and waiting for an opportunity that may or may not ever arrive. If they can create their own, so much the better, but it can't always be expected. So are those unmotivated to work lazy or is the problem society can't afford the incentive they require? Why should anyone be forced to accept only what is offered? Should they accept being only a cog?
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:53 PM   #313
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So, is that pancake going to taste like p.....?
Finally this thread lives up to its potential.

Ha
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:57 PM   #314
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Must not post............
I didn't.
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:18 PM   #315
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Umm okay, so this is a cat shaped pie thats also a pirate.

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Old 12-28-2007, 05:32 PM   #316
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......and a cat that's a pirate!
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Old 12-28-2007, 05:35 PM   #317
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Arrr...

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Old 12-30-2007, 01:08 PM   #318
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DW and I are back from a most enjoyable Christmas visit with family.

bongo2,

These first three quotes in red are from your first three posts in this thread (bolding is mine):

I want to get straight what I mean by retirement. Technically you can say things like “Bob retired from his job as a lawyer to teach starving children in Africa,” or “Bob retired early from his job as a mover after his eighth heart attack left him unable to lift heavy objects.” The ER we are generally discussing around here is someone who is perfectly able to work deciding to leave their job in order to pursue “leisure” activities.

If you are leaving your job to pursue a higher calling then I think it is misleading to say you are “retiring”

Now, I’ve claimed not just that people think that ER is selfish, but that they are, at least partly, correct. ER is not evil or horrible, but it is selfish.

And three more from much later:

Kombat: Yes, let’s make this more concrete. Moe and Joe are programmers both making $100k. Joe is a frugal sort who saves 40% of his income and is able to retire at 45 on his savings. Moe spends all of his money, but still stops working at 45 because he is able to scam some sort of disability that he doesn’t have. So, is Moe selfish, but Joe not? I don’t think so. While Joe has earned the right to retire early, his early retirement is still selfish.

donheff: “the above, where you equate earning an early retirement (concerned with self) with fraudulent disability (selfish as bad).” I’m using the term “selfish” to mean concerned excessively with self without regard for others – there is an implication of “badness,” but not a huge one. With the example you mention I was trying to separate the earning of the means to fund retirement, and the act of stopping work.

“If you are spiritually committed to Service, why chose to Serve Mammon?” I totally agree that people contribute in ways besides work. Just like “selfish” means more than just “self interested”, “retired” means more than just “withdrawn from one’s occupation.” “Retired” implies that you are no longer contributing. If ERs in general are great contributors in ways besides their old occupation, then I’m wrong. Looking around here, though, the comments of Bronson, and the “famous” ERs like the Terhorsts lead me to think I’m not.

Okay,

1. You do claim that ER is selfish, and you give a definition of selfish. And I claim that ERing with enough funds to support the desired lifestyle does NOT fit that definition; it is not 'without regard for others', as the ER is paying his own way and is not a burden on society.

2. I note that you agree that saving enough to ER earns one that right.

3. You are using the word retirement in a very different manner than is common; retirement = not contributing. I repeat the claim that the capital supporting one's ER is contributing to society.

I don't know that there's a lot more to be said here. We seem to be down to fundamental disagreements.
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Old 12-30-2007, 01:32 PM   #319
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Well, let's see.

...

3. Or, I could keep working long after I no longer need the money and have no intention of spending it. I suppose I could develop wasteful habits. But I would satisfy someone else's notion of "work ethic" that means nothing to me.

....

I think #1 and #4 are selfish, while #3 is just stupid. Like millionaires who engage in fraud and get themselves sent to jail, when they were already set for life.
You could make an argument that #3 is selfish, too. If you don't need the money, you could well say it's selfish to keep the job instead of leaving it and making it available for someone who *does* need the job. Insisting on keeping something you don't need (or even really WANT) and not allowing it to go to someone who needs it? How is that NOT selfish?
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Old 12-30-2007, 02:56 PM   #320
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Maybe we should apply our reasoning skills to a more down to earth topic, like "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin"?

Ha
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