Replacement Hot Water Heater

[Winemaker]

They are charging me $1,200 for labor and miscellaneous parts for a total of $2,250.

The second plumber was $2,550. Both plumbers had good references so I went with the lower one. The labor seems high.

They don't SEEM high, they are high. Although you are purchasing a lot of bells and whistles and may need bell and whistle connectors. It is a lot of money with the type of connections available, and even if you use the old solder connections, even a homemade plumber/electrian like myself can do a good job.

My late MIL decided to replace her low rider commode with a high riser, she was afraid of falling. She hired a plumber to do it, instead of bothering me while I was w@rking. I happened to visit her the day of the install and the $400 install fee was highway robbery. She said that he gave a years guarantee, I told her I gave lifetime guarentees.

 

[Ready]

I agree the labor is high, but I had to twist the second guy's arm to do it for that price. At first he wanted more. I don't know whether they will have two plumbers carry the tanks up and down the stairs or just use laborers. But they do have to convert the system from two interconnected tanks to just the one.

And at some point I guess my time waiting around for plumbers to come by and give me estimates becomes worth more than the few hundred dollars.

As for the wifi timer, I may not end up using it if the mechanical timer works well. But I already have a bunch of lights on the TP-Link system and they work very well. What I like about it is that if I'm on my way home, and I know I'm going to need hot water, I can just turn it on from my phone. And if I go on vacation for a week and forget to turn the timer off, I can do it remotely.

 

[Ready]

OK, you just gotta stop that! It's a water heater, period! -ERD50

I'll try, but old habits are hard to break.


-ERD50[/QUOTE]Maybe I missed it, but did you mention a low pressure problem before? That seems unlikely to be due to a water heater? I assume the need to run the water for 10 minutes was the circulation pump issue?-ERD50[/QUOTE]

I may have forgotten to mention, but yes I have very low pressure, especially on the third floor. The plumber thought replacing the water heater and valves should fix the problem, but it seems like it's been this way for as long as we've been living here.

 

[Texas Proud]

I'll try, but old habits are hard to break.


-ERD50

Maybe I missed it, but did you mention a low pressure problem before? That seems unlikely to be due to a water heater? I assume the need to run the water for 10 minutes was the circulation pump issue?-ERD50[/QUOTE]

I may have forgotten to mention, but yes I have very low pressure, especially on the third floor. The plumber thought replacing the water heater and valves should fix the problem, but it seems like it's been this way for as long as we've been living here.[/QUOTE]


First, I will ask... is the water pressure the same on hot and cold?

I do not think that a new hot water heater will change the pressure...

I was living on a 4th floor apt and it had an in house pump to increase the water pressure since it was low due to pushing water up 4 floors... the pressure coming into the house is what is important... and if it is low, nothing you can do about it without a pump...

 

[Ready]

The pressure is much lower with the hot water. Cold water pressure is OK.

 

[samclem]

... the pressure coming into the house is what is important... and if it is low, nothing you can do about it without a pump...

Or, the pipes could be on the way out. I don't know how old Ready's house is, but many homes in SoCal were built with galvanized piping
at least as late as the mid 1960s. Those pipes corrode badly (the hot water pipes go first) and choke up with sediment/crud. I guess technically they still have good pressure throughout the house (i.e. if the taps were closed, the static pressure would be fine everywhere), but the pipes are effectively so small that the flow rate goes way down.
The expensive fix is to replace all the plumbing (with PEX, usually). I think the more common fix is to do things piecemeal, making PEX "home runs" from a main manifold to the affected areas as the homeowner's budget allows.

Ready--are your pipes (inside the walls, under the house, etc) galvanized "iron"? (grey pipes with threaded ends that go to female threaded couplings/elbows/Ts)?

 

[Ready]

We built the house in 2001. We have all copper plumbing, which I'm told should be free from corrosion.

 

[samclem]

We built the house in 2001. We have all copper plumbing, which I'm told should be free from corrosion.

Great. Galvanized is a nightmare.

 

[Winemaker]

The pressure is much lower with the hot water. Cold water pressure is OK.

There must be a closed or obstructed valve or line somewhere. Are there any valves that may isolate floors? Water pressure is developed by the elevation of the water company's water tank and the elevation of your house and any resistance in the waterline. Is the hot water pipe same diameter as cold on the upper floor? Pressure should be same unless decreased size or resistance.

 

[meierlde]

I agree the labor is high, but I had to twist the second guy's arm to do it for that price. At first he wanted more. I don't know whether they will have two plumbers carry the tanks up and down the stairs or just use laborers. But they do have to convert the system from two interconnected tanks to just the one.

And at some point I guess my time waiting around for plumbers to come by and give me estimates becomes worth more than the few hundred dollars.

As for the wifi timer, I may not end up using it if the mechanical timer works well. But I already have a bunch of lights on the TP-Link system and they work very well. What I like about it is that if I'm on my way home, and I know I'm going to need hot water, I can just turn it on from my phone. And if I go on vacation for a week and forget to turn the timer off, I can do it remotely.

This explains part of the high price, it is more than just a water heater replacement, but rather a minor re plumbing job. I suspect that just replacing the water heater could cost less. For that job in a lot of places to do it properly the plumber also has to pull a permit, since it is more than just a 1 for 1 replacement.

 

[samclem]

I may have forgotten to mention, but yes I have very low pressure, especially on the third floor. The plumber thought replacing the water heater and valves should fix the problem, but it seems like it's been this way for as long as we've been living here.

I'd recommend that you check right now to see how long it takes to fill a 1 gal jug from the hot sink tap in your third floor bathroom. Then, before your plumber drives off in his Bentley, check it again. This way you'll have an objective measurement of whether your flow problem improved after his work.

Also, I'd recommend that you have him check the static pressure coming into your house. That can usually be adjusted fairly simply if it is not right. Don't let him "improve it" above a prudent level just to achieve sufficient flow at distant taps--I believe the general consensus is that residential water pressure shouldn't exceed about 60-80 PSI (higher pressures are tough on valves and seals, lead to higher maintenance costs, etc). The upper floors will have lower static pressure than the lower floors, but it won't be terrifically different. The pressure drops .43 PSI per foot of height, so if your 3rd floor sink is 20 ft higher than your first floor kitchen sink, the static pressure difference will be just 8.6 PSI.

Finally, if he turns on a hot water tap at the end of the line, and then checks the pressure at other places leading to that point (including >before< the water heater), he should be able to get the general location of any blockage/partially closed valves, etc. (He could have done this when he was out for the estimate and in 2 minutes told you with some certainty whether the low flow was caused by the WH). With the tap open at the distant end, the pressure will be higher "upstream" of any restriction.

 

[John Galt III]

Just a datapoint about the low hot water pressure. I have copper piping. When I installed my new 50 gallon electric WH, I used Sharkbite flex hoses and left the plastic collars inside the ends of the hoses (got different recommendations from plumbers whether to leave in or remove). My hot water pressure is now noticeably lower than the cold. I think the plastic inserts are restricting flow into and/or out of the WH. The pressure is acceptable, though, so I'm going to leave well enough alone. P.S. (yes, I think "hot water heater" is tolerable. Just what are you heating in that tank, anyway? Hot water! )

 

[misanman]

If the water is hot I don't need to heat it. If it's cold then I do. Maybe they should be called a cold water heater.

 

[samclem]

I wonder if a $2k water heater installation will use Sharkbite connections? I think they are fine and use them often, but for that kind of money I'd want to hear the torch and see the solder, just on principle.

 

[Breedlove]

Wow , I did my whole house I Pex pipe and Shark bites . A really nice piece of technology . Even ran my water line from the Well to my house in Pex.

 

[John Galt III]

I wonder if a $2k water heater installation will use Sharkbite connections? I think they are fine and use them often, but for that kind of money I'd want to hear the torch and see the solder, just on principle.

For an easy ground level out-and-in job I got a quote for $1,100. The plumber said he would happily do either Sharkbite or old school copper and solder, but the price would be the same. He also said Sharkbites were very reliable. Of course I did the job myself to save that small fortune in "labor".

 

[CaptTom]

We have lousy water pressure. We'd be lucky to get 30PSI. We're on the top of a hill, about as far from the standpipe as can be. I compensated by using 100% copper. PEX was either brand-new, or not heard of, when I started. I ran 3/4" to the boiler and before the first few branches, dropping down to 1/2" for the rest.

I don't think I could use PEX. The ID of the fittings is much smaller than my existing 1/2" fittings. Years ago I used sweat connections right up to the fixtures, but the pressure has improved a little since then, and I can get away with flexible connections to sinks and toilets now.

Funny story, when I re-did the kitchen the manufacturer recommended a saddle valve for the fridge connection. With that, it took 32 seconds to fill an 8-oz measuring cup. I ripped it out and put a copper T into a 3/4" main with a 1/2" ball valve down to a fitting for the hose. Now it takes 8 seconds. Makes me smile every time I get a drink of water

 

[samclem]

Funny story, when I re-did the kitchen the manufacturer recommended a saddle valve for the fridge connection. With that, it took 32 seconds to fill an 8-oz measuring cup. I ripped it out and put a copper T into a 3/4" main with a 1/2" ball valve down to a fitting for the hose. Now it takes 8 seconds. Makes me smile every time I get a drink of water

And your icemaker may even last longer because of it. The solenoid that opens the valve to let water into the ice trays needs to stay energized until the tray fills up. If you have low water pressure= low flow rate= the solenoid needs to stay energized longer, and that isn't good for their longevity.

 

[travelover]

We have lousy water pressure. We'd be lucky to get 30PSI. We're on the top of a hill, about as far from the standpipe as can be...........

Daughter has a similar home and her house has a booster pump to bring the water pressure up to "normal" levels.

 

[CaptTom]

Daughter has a similar home and her house has a booster pump to bring the water pressure up to "normal" levels.

I've thought of doing that, but recent water main improvements made it livable.

I love your signature line, by the way. I intend to use that one!

 

[NameRedacted]

Coincidentally, our hot water heater sprung a leak this morning and I had to have it replaced. It was almost 14 years old. I called our usual heating/cooling company who quoted us $1560. I called a plumber we have used in the past and they quoted us $880. I went with them. This was for a $40 gallon tank that claims energy usage of $263/yr.

I have to say I found the whole experience to be somewhat unsatisfying.

The final bill came to $968 because they had to replace some of the copper fittings. I talked to the guy and he says he almost always has to do that which begs the question as to why that's not part of the quote anyway. Also, they said he would be there at noon and be finished by 2pm. When he still hadn't arrived by 1:45. I called back to be told he was on his way and just around the corner. He finally showed up at 2:15pm and sat in the driveway in his truck until 2:30 for some inexplicable reason before ringing the door bell, my guess is he was eating lunch. He was done by 4:15.

Hopefully this one will last 14 years too.

 

[zinger1457]

The final bill came to $968 because they had to replace some of the copper fittings. I talked to the guy and he says he almost always has to do that which begs the question as to why that's not part of the quote anyway.

It does sound like a low ball trick the plumber uses to help get a job, bid low then add on cost later. I would have expected those cost to be included and for $88 you can buy more copper fittings than you would ever need to replace a water heater. I guess the good news is that the total install price you paid does not seem that out of line.

 

[exnavynuke]

I had a company replace the 40 gallon electric water heater in the house with a 8 gpm, 94% efficiency, Rinnai tankless gas water heater. Total cost was $1,788, then got a $500 rebate from the gas company for switching to gas, resulting in a net cost of $1,288. Quite a bit of plumbing needed for that but the water heater has been great. My parents are living in the house right now. One of whom is disabled so showers take quite some time, plus family tends to visit making the 2 person household often have 5+ people in it, and there have been zero issues in the years it's been installed with hot water. The only problem getting hot water is the kitchen sink is a far distance away so it takes a minute for hot water to get there. For that I'll be installing a point of use water heater to provide hot water quickly once I get around to putting in an outlet to use there. The lower utility bills (dropped by about $30/month, but some of that is due to switching to a gas furnace from electric at the same time) are a nice bonus to having the ability for everyone to take comfortable showers while people do laundry etc without worrying about running out of hot water.

In contrast, the house I'm currently in has a 40 gallon water heater and if three people take showers near the same time (one after another etc) we tend to run out of hot water if the tank isn't set to "blister" hot.

 

[CaptTom]

In contrast, the house I'm currently in has a 40 gallon water heater and if three people take showers near the same time (one after another etc) we tend to run out of hot water if the tank isn't set to "blister" hot.

I suspect there's a problem somewhere. A 40G tank should be fine for much more than two showers. Electric or gas? What temp is it set for normally?

If I'm wrong and the heater checks out OK, then how about setting it to "blister" hot and adding a thermostatic temperature control valve?

 

[exnavynuke]

I suspect there's a problem somewhere. A 40G tank should be fine for much more than two showers. Electric or gas? What temp is it set for normally?

If I'm wrong and the heater checks out OK, then how about setting it to "blister" hot and adding a thermostatic temperature control valve?

It's set to 130. For people that are a fan of "get in and right out" 8 minute showers, I'm sure it would be absolutely fine. For people that would rather have a nice relaxing shower, it's not. Add in what I consider a "nice" shower (multiple shower heads/bench/rain showerhead etc) and a single "long" shower can eat through most of the hot water you get from a 40 gallon tank if any other hot water is being used/has been used recently.

Use the whirlpool tub instead (which holds 100+ gallons), and you can run out of hot water just filling it up at 130F. Hope no one else wants any hot water for a bit after you run that...

I like long, hot, relaxing showers. I like an occasional soak in the tub. Sometimes I might wanna do one of those after starting some laundry or running the dishwasher or while someone else is also using hot water. As such, a tankless water heater was the most economical solution I found to allow that.