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Re: A couple issues here.
Old 01-15-2005, 06:29 PM   #21
 
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Re: A couple issues here.

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Based on my experiences at Fortune 500 companies, *this is unfortunate but true for IT non management personnel. *Specifically with developers/coders, the companies that I were with have aggressive college recruitment programs for these positions both for cost saving as well as a belief that these employees will be better contributors (more mallable, enthusiatic, put in longer hours etc.) *than experienced and older hires; without up-to-date skills would just be another strike.
I am probably as worthless as a Cobolasaur ;D
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-15-2005, 07:01 PM   #22
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

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Biker:
One other point I learned is that you can not take the "mega corporate" value system into ER. Take the value system of your grandparents, or any relative that survived lean times such as the depression. And for heavens sake do not attempt to run in the same social circles as those who have totally mortgaged their lives to the corporate "getting and spending" lifestyle.
Lex, I agree but there is no reason to wait until ER to reject the "mega corporate" value system. The sooner you do it, the quicker you get to ER.

Biker, start spending as if you were already in ER, hold your nose, grit your teeth and cut those 5-7 more years in half and you don't have to worry about continuing to w:Prk after ER.

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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-15-2005, 08:12 PM   #23
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

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. . .*What confused my focus on ER was the lure of six, possibly seven figure money left on the table in stock options and resticted stock. *The irony of leaving money behind to leave early after all the hard work to get it (and its both hard work and usually hard luck) eats away at your confidence to ER. *But the key is what is known in some circles as having enough "go to hell" money that there is plenty of wealth to cover you and your family so long as you keep your values and wits in line. *. . .
Good points, LEX.

I balked and shuddered about the golden handcuffs I was wearing for a few months. I've never heard the expression "go to hell" money, but that is what allowed me to leave and that is exactly what I was saying.
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-16-2005, 08:05 AM   #24
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

Salary- Guru:

I picked up the term "Go to Hell" money during a stint at Chevron Corporation. *It must have originated in the Oil patch. *The context of the phrase is when a indepdendent oil promoter drills a well that comes in with enough production such that he can pay off all his creditors, especially the banks that have a lein on the drilling equipment, and include with his final payment in full a letter that they can all "...go to hell..." with their usually onerous loan restrictions. *An independent is often obligated by the high risk, hard money investment bankers to mortage everything he's got to drill a prospect, often including his home and personal assets as collatoral. The fees charged him are usurious and the terms all one sided in favor of the bank. *The oil men I have worked with over the years usually gage their success on being able to "de-louse' themselves of the lawyers and banks through payout on successful venture pay-off, often considering the pay-off more important than the big money they might have made. *Its like the feeling one gets when he beats the house in Vegas knowing the odds are stacked against him. *Keep the chips and walk away....
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-16-2005, 08:18 AM   #25
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

Hmmm, I thought it was based on the Wall Street concept of a retirement-funding stinkin' rich "f*** you" deal.

One entertaining example is Ben Mezrich's "Ugly Americans : The True Story of the Ivy League Cowboys Who Raided the Asian Markets for Millions".
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-16-2005, 08:56 AM   #26
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

Probably several urban legends as to where the term may have originated, but the theme is the same...walk away with your chips and leave the game to the sharks that run it to their advantage.
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-16-2005, 10:04 AM   #27
 
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

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Probably several urban legends as to where the term may have originated, but the theme is the same...walk away with your chips and leave the game to the sharks that run it to their advantage.

Very true. This is what allowed me to walk away from a high paying job.

Now I think of myself as an investor/owner. We (owners) need to make sure the managers are running the companies to our advantage, not theirs'.
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Re: A couple issues here.
Old 01-17-2005, 06:22 AM   #28
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Re: A couple issues here.

Quote:

Based on my experiences at Fortune 500 companies, this is unfortunate but true for IT non management personnel. Specifically with developers/coders, the companies that I were with have aggressive college recruitment programs for these positions both for cost saving as well as a belief that these employees will be better contributors (more mallable, enthusiatic, put in longer hours etc.) than experienced and older hires; without up-to-date skills would just be another strike.
That is probably more "true" in the Bay Area or any other high tech areas. My brother-in-law, an IT manager, told me that he would hire younger programmer/developer (less than 30 years or 10 years of experience) becuase they have no familiy obligations, healthy, are willing to work for cheap and overtime and do not complain. He said it is widely practiced there. I told him it is such a misconception that I elect not to comment on it to avoid confrontation since we were staying at their house.

It is unfortunate that so many people share that view that older workers are expensive, less effective, prone to sickness, burdens to society, etc. What happen to the days in which elders are respected and regarded as sages?

It is also sad that the people who embrace it are in their mid 40s or older. Do they ever worry that some day that whey will grow old? Do they want this kind of treatment when they get there?

Spanky :'(
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-17-2005, 06:42 AM   #29
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

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Hey P.S.

"..Hey, I really like you and I bet you would make an excellent second income stream to supplement my investment returns in early retirement! *How do you feel about recycling dryer sheets?"
You would've had me from hello!
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-17-2005, 08:19 AM   #30
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

First time I ever heard the expression it was "drop dead money" in a James Clavell book, Noble House. I think it came out in the late seventies or the early eighties.

Neal Stephenson used the term again in Cryptonomicon, as "FU money." One of his characters had a permanent little window in the corner of his laptop computer screen showing a number that represented this mythical sum; constantly updated in real-time to reflect a variety of economic inputs. Sadly, Stephenson doesn't reveal what those inputs were.
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Re: A couple issues here.
Old 01-17-2005, 10:01 AM   #31
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Re: A couple issues here.

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My brother-in-law, an IT manager, told me *that he would hire younger programmer/developer (less than 30 years or 10 years of experience) becuase they have no familiy obligations, healthy, are willing to work for cheap and overtime and do not complain. He said it is widely practiced there. I told him it is such a misconception that I elect not to comment on it to avoid confrontation since we were staying at their house.
He's not penalized for the cost of employee turnover, is he? If he could quantify the turnover numbers he might decide that those over-40 workers are a better deal after all...
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-17-2005, 04:37 PM   #32
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

Nord,

No, he is not evaluated on employee retention. He works for the county government. I do not think that the turnover is high since most would stay for the pension.

Spanky
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Re: A couple issues here.
Old 01-17-2005, 05:06 PM   #33
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Re: A couple issues here.

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He's not penalized for the cost of employee turnover, is he? *If he could quantify the turnover numbers he might decide that those over-40 workers are a better deal after all...
You're right to be looking at the motivation/penalization. A lot of managers at (b)leading edge tech firms get bonuses based on overly aggressive ship schedules. Twenty-something guys with no family are much more willing to work 60-80 hour weeks on a regular basis than 40-somethings with a wife and two kids. They have fewer ties, more stamina, and are still in awe of working at really cool places (or they're revelling in being a junior sith lord working for the forces of darkness in Redmond). You rarely get bonuses for shipping well designed, quality products that require little in the way of tech support, that will be easily maintained, and that are upgradable with changing standards.
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-17-2005, 05:50 PM   #34
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

Hyperborea,

I am one of those over 40 technology workers trapped by a combination of brass handcuffs and the stigma of hiring over 40 something technology workers. But, if all goes as planned in 2 more years a job at WaldoMart (Livin the American Dream - workin at Walmart) salary levels should allow me to semi-FIRE. Until then, the tough love of The Man will have to do.
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Re: A couple issues here.
Old 01-17-2005, 10:16 PM   #35
 
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Re: A couple issues here.

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A lot of managers at (b)leading edge tech firms get bonuses based on overly aggressive ship schedules. Twenty-something guys with no family are much more willing to work 60-80 hour weeks on a regular basis than 40-somethings with a wife and two kids. They have fewer ties, more stamina, and are still in awe of working at really cool places (or they're revelling in being a junior sith lord working for the forces of darkness in Redmond). You rarely get bonuses for shipping well designed, quality products that require little in the way of tech support, that will be easily maintained, and that are upgradable with changing standards.
Sounds like bad management to me. The company may prosper in spite of these decisions -- and often not.

The best developers outperform the worst by at least 10:1 in terms of productivity (and quality). It's difficult to identify the top performers, and in my experience age isn't much of an indicator of anything (maybe experience).

Bleeding edge technology changes so fast that everyone is always behind. If you don't have a job, and aren't wasting time fixing those underperformers' bugs while trying to get a product out the door -- it may even be easier to catch up!
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Re: A couple issues here.
Old 01-18-2005, 11:30 AM   #36
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Re: A couple issues here.

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Sounds like bad management to me. *. . .Bleeding edge technology changes so fast that everyone is always behind. *If you don't have a job, and aren't wasting time fixing those underperformers' bugs while trying to get a product out the door -- it may even be easier to catch up!
Spoken like a quality engineer :). . . but not necessarily like a "get rich quick" corporate executive. The half-life of a corporate VP at some of these companies is far shorter than the unreliable product return whip. They hope to be promoted and basking in platinum handcuffs long before the problem comes back to haunt them. :-[
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Re: A couple issues here.
Old 01-18-2005, 12:20 PM   #37
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Re: A couple issues here.

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Spoken like a quality engineer * :). . . but not necessarily like a "get rich quick" corporate executive. *The half-life of a corporate VP at some of these companies is far shorter than the unreliable product return whip. *They hope to be promoted and basking in platinum handcuffs long before the problem comes back to haunt them. * :-[
And if the exec is still there then the solution is a re-org to hide all the bodies.
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-18-2005, 12:31 PM   #38
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

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I am one of those over 40 technology workers trapped by a combination of brass handcuffs and the stigma of hiring over 40 something technology workers.
I recently turned 40 myself but I have three things in my favour. *I look a lot younger than I am - I was carded when buying port (for making beef stew) at the grocery store two years ago! *I went to grad school in my early 30's so my resume makes me look younger too. *Finally, I seem to have stumbled into a company that has older engineers and values them - half my current group is older than I am.

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But, if all goes as planned in 2 more years a job at WaldoMart (Livin the American Dream - workin at Walmart) salary levels should allow me to semi-FIRE. *Until then, the tough love of The Man will have to do.
That's a great point to get to. *I reached the point a few years back where if we added nothing more to our retirement savings that my wife and I could retire at the "normal" age with a decent savings/investment amount counting on only a sub-historical real growth rate. *This is kind of liberating because at that point you could take those crappy paying but less stressful jobs and still not end up living in a box under a bridge when you are old.

Since then we've continued to add to the savings/investments and are just 6 years from leaving the salt mines forever. *However, I'm always running the "what if it all goes to h3ll now then what can we do" scenario in my head. *Every year the options are better.
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 01-19-2005, 05:58 PM   #39
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

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Since then we've continued to add to the savings/investments and are just 6 years from leaving the salt mines forever. However, I'm always running the "what if it all goes to h3ll now then what can we do" scenario in my head. Every year the options are better.
My thoughts exactly. We are planning for 5% returns.
We could retire now on 45K pre-tax income and supplement that with Walmart income if needed. Nearly free from the Man. WooHoo.
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Re: Retire from mega corp america
Old 02-06-2005, 02:56 AM   #40
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Re: Retire from mega corp america

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Then there is the whole stigma of being a bum (not that I think that you RE guys are bums ). I am single and looking for love (I know thats dangerous). Having a J O B is pretty high on the list of favorable bachelor traits. If I got of the rat race and ran my own business it would look much better I think.
--Biker
Ah, if that's what you're worried about, just call yourself Retired_Millionaire_@35 on your match.com (or would that be Adult Friend Finder?) profile, and you'll get more inquiries than you can handle! Seriously, though, I would just lie about my job. Just put whatever you were doing before as you job. The problem with your being retired though is that you're always available, which is a problem for some women who prefer a bit more chase and a bit more mystery. Of course, having a crazy job that doesn't give you much time is also a problem, as I personally experienced just last week! Nobody said it's easy!
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