Who is thinking of retiring in another country?

[unclemick]

I think it's analogous to taking on more risk in order to obtain a higher investment return...sure, you can live cheap, until the locals decide to tar and feather all the Yankee imperialists

It's worth considering if you understand the risks.

heh heh heh heh heh - a few thought's along those lines periodically 1974 - 2005 but mostly mutterings about 'dam Yankee's. Took Katrina to really run us off.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Please don't think that I am all negative. I work with a number of Venezuelan expats who tell me that Merida, a nice little tourist/college town in the mountains, is still a great place and not hostile to Yankees (who behave themselves, of course). Several travelers have opined that it is one of the best cities in all of South America. My friends have even advised me how to live there and exchange money cheap.

 

[MJ]

I have been doing extensive research on the perfect place. Considering all of these factors:

Cost of living
Climate
Infastructure (DSL etc.)
Crime
Acceptance of Americans
Medical Insurance
Taxes

I have come up with the following list.

1. Uruguay

Second choice would be:
2. Ecuador

What appears to be missing from this list is reliable medical services. IMO cheap medical insurance is worthless if it is in country having poor medical services.
So do you know how Uruguay or Ecuador rate?

Thanks

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Uruguay is supposed to have first-class medical care.

I don't know one way or the other, but this guy...
http://www.uruguayliving.com/
is wheel-chair bouind and lives in Uruguay and describes his positive experience with their health care system.

 

[modhatter]

Ed the Gyply

That's Merida, Mexico you speak of?

 

[Hydroman]

Would any of you really be considering retiring to a 3rd world country if it were not for the apparent lower cost of living? Don't forget there is a reason more people are trying to get into the US then leave. I can think of one good reason to stay in the U.S. Stability of the Government. What is going to happen to your happy retirement when the next revolution happens and the new government decides to kick all the yanks out?

 

[Sam]

Do tell me about your personal experience about living outside of the US. Which country did you live in, how long?

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

That's Merida, Mexico you speak of?

modhatter,

No, not Merida, Mexico, "The White City". There is a city in the mountains of Venezuela, in the west almost to Maracaibo, named Merida. Good climate, university town, not too small, not too large, lots of things to do outdoors, lots of good restaurants. Supposed to be one of the lowest cost places to live in Vz. Not well known up here, but in South America, yes.

http://www.discovervenezuela.com/merida.cfm

I recently had a PM from a Yankee retiree there who said it was great.

Cheers,

Gypsy

 

[justin]

Would any of you really be considering retiring to a 3rd world country if it were not for the apparent lower cost of living? Don't forget there is a reason more people are trying to get into the US then leave. I can think of one good reason to stay in the U.S. Stability of the Government. What is going to happen to your happy retirement when the next revolution happens and the new government decides to kick all the yanks out?

I might end up spending a year or a few years living abroad at some point. I'll have school-age kids and it would be a good learning experience for them to see other cultures and other parts of the world. My wife is also an immigrant from Thailand, and it would be a treat for our kids to see their native culture. Not something that most recent immigrants can provide for their kids. Who knows if we'll actually carry through with these plans though, as so much can change in a few years.

I guess you could say the low costs are also an important element, since we would probably spend a lot of time receiving dirt cheap thai massages, and have domestic help of some sort (maid(s), cook(s), etc.). Although living there for just a few years won't really change my projected retirement expenses any.

 

[Hydroman]

I might end up spending a year or a few years living abroad at some point. I'll have school-age kids and it would be a good learning experience for them to see other cultures and other parts of the world.

I can understand that motivation. I think it is great to expose our children and ourselves to different culture. Temporarily living a foreign country can help accomplishe that goal. But I really do not understand the passion to permanently move to a 3rd world country just because the cost of living is lower and you can ER sooner. As much as I enjoy my travels to other countries, I am always feel like kissing the ground when I arrive back in the USA. There is a reason so many people are trying to get into the USA. Even Billy and Aleisha maintain a permanent place in the USA to fall back on.

 

[bpp]

But I really do not understand the passion to permanently move to a 3rd world country just because the cost of living is lower and you can ER sooner. As much as I enjoy my travels to other countries, I am always feel like kissing the ground when I arrive back in the USA. There is a reason so many people are trying to get into the USA.

Depends on the person, of course. Maybe also on how long you've been out. Once you've been out of the US for a few years, it can stop making sense to you. (I've met others with the same experience. Of course, YMMV.)

I find Hawaii still quite nice to visit, and it still feels kind of like home, but the Mainland is getting to be too alien to me at this point to feel any tug to go back.

I sometimes think that because the US is largely a nation of immigrants, it means that we are predisposed (by national myth and/or selection effects) to consider it natural to make a new life in a new place, without looking back. Emigrating may be a very typically American thing to do.

 

[MJ]

BTW, it's Billy and Akaisha.

 

[ladelfina]

Once you've been out of the US for a few years, it can stop making sense to you.

bpp, you've "gone native"?
It is interesting how a different environment can start working on your perceptions, your thought patterns, your reflexes.. only after a few short years.

I used to sometimes feel like I was dying for a cheeseburger, a taco, an egg roll... anything but more Italian food. But when I visited recently and had had a bit of Thai take-out or whatever.. I just found myself kind of put off by ALL the food and found myself trying to stifle an impulse to go to the grocery store and get the fixings for some cannellini beans or linguini in tuna sauce, chicken marsala, or braised fennel.

In the US, one usually talks until done, and then the other person responds, except around NY & Boston where it's commonly accepted that to speed things up it's OK to step on the end of people's sentences or finish them for them, then the other person does the same thing and you ratchet ahead in that way--once you know where the other person is going you snatch the ball and run with it.. Here in Italy, it can be normal for everyone to talk simultaneously in a kind of crazy embroidery; everyone more or less gets the general sense and freewheels along but it is hard for me to get the sense of whether facts and concepts are actually "sticking." I imagine in Japan there is a whole other conversational dynamic to adapt to. Point is, these ways of speaking, I think, can actually modify your mental processes, making it feel awkward to go back "home."

Living abroad isn't for everyone, but it does open your horizons. If you are FI, you can already avoid a lot of the issues that make the locals yearn for the US; you have to some extent the best of both worlds. A lot of the things that you think you couldn't live without and suffer for not having in the short term, you tend to stop missing with time. Anyone who can RE by denying themselves some of the everyday "necessities" like a $3 latte or a new car every 2 years is likely to be able to adapt just fine to the different standard of living that one finds outside of the US. The biggest drawback is that if you have very strong ties to family & friends, those may not be easy to maintain or to replace.

 

[justin]

But I really do not understand the passion to permanently move to a 3rd world country just because the cost of living is lower and you can ER sooner.

From a strictly financial sense, I can understand it. Not everyone makes a ton of money. Some folks may have to scrimp and save for 20 years just to afford a decent overseas retirement. Unless they just love their job, why would they want to bust their butt for 10 more years (or whatever the time might be) in order to secure the funds to provide for a retirement in the US? In other words, they may be able to have the same or better lifestyle in a 3rd world country of their choosing 10 years earlier than if they remain employed long enough to earn their 1st world retirement.

Maybe some folks don't particularly care for US society (however you define that)? Adventure? Excitement? Desire to live like a king on a pauper's budget? Plenty of reasons for some people to relocate to a low cost of living country. There's a good chance I might do it if I were single and without kids.

 

[Nords]

I find Hawaii still quite nice to visit, and it still feels kind of like home, but the Mainland is getting to be too alien to me at this point to feel any tug to go back.

Boy, you really struck a chord there. I'm afraid you're going to have to start shopping for your Big Island real estate now and deciding whether to build a vacation home or an ohana compound.

"Overseas" culture has gradually crept into our home... a bamboo plant here, a kadomatsu there, Japanese & Korean art hanging on the walls, lucky frog statues in the backyard, a lot of rice & fish on the menu, a fondness for Thai massage. I don't miss a bit of my "home" Pittsburgh culture.

We actually feel more at home in Guam, Japan, and Thailand than we did vacationing this summer in Virginia & Maryland.

 

[Sam]

One of the obvious but often neglected advantage of retiring outside of the US is health care. This is especially true for early retirees without medical benefits. The Health Insurance premium in the US is high, but the worst part is its unpreditability. No one can say for sure how much will next year increase be, let alone, next 5 or 10 years. And that makes planning extremely tough.

 

[wheel9]

Has anyone considered the possibility of 3-4 month stays in different countries as part of a retirement strategy, and still keeping a paid off home as a base for when things get boring. I have found that when traveling it is best to stay in a neighborhood and meet the people, rather than a tourist hotel.

Since your home is paid for, the cost of a furnished apartment for 3-4 months should not be too out of reach. Rotating countries/regions on an annual basis would allow you to experience a great deal of the world over time.

 

[kcowan]

I think the main attraction is a different quality of life. I wonder what experience the OP of this question has had. I am reminded of a department that my large NY company had for people to relocate. It was called Moving and Living.

A common joke for those of us who had moved was that a requirement to be employed in the department was that they had neither Moved nor Lived!

We visited some friends from Monterey CA who were living in Antequera with their two young children. They wanted to live there to establish solid family values (and also learn Spanish).

We also do home swaps because they are better. Many people assume we do them because of costs. Again these people have always never tried it.

 

[Hydroman]

Has anyone considered the possibility of 3-4 month stays in different countries as part of a retirement strategy, and still keeping a paid off home as a base for when things get boring. I have found that when traveling it is best to stay in a neighborhood and meet the people, rather than a tourist hotel.

Since your home is paid for, the cost of a furnished apartment for 3-4 months should not be too out of reach. Rotating countries/regions on an annual basis would allow you to experience a great deal of the world over time.

Actually I have been considering that idea. More from the standpoint of my love of travel and experiencing life in different cultures, then from a cost savings standpoint. For me it would be 8-9 months at my self sufficient hydro/solar powered house on 20 off the grid acres in North Idaho and 3-4 winter months in SE Asia, Latin America or? I have not analyzed it enough to determine if from a cost standpoint my expenses would go down, be the same or actually go up. My gut tells me the 3-4 months offshore will probably add to my costs. Not sure yet.

 

[Robert the Red]

Not everyone makes a ton of money. Some folks may have to scrimp and save for 20 years just to afford a decent overseas retirement.

When I was in Chiang Mai in Feb, I talked to an American who retired there on just his SS. He looked like he'd had a rough life (missing teeth, generally beat-up by circumstances). He said that in the US he'd be poor, but in Thailand he could "live like a bank president". He had a rental motorbike ($1/day plus gas) and a small apartment and loved it there. I got the impression he lived alone.

 

[MJ]

When I was in Chiang Mai in Feb, I talked to an American who retired there on just his SS. He looked like he'd had a rough life (missing teeth, generally beat-up by circumstances). He said that in the US he'd be poor, but in Thailand he could "live like a bank president". He had a rental motorbike ($1/day plus gas) and a small apartment and loved it there. I got the impression he lived alone.

Gee, I don't remember being there in February.

 

[modhatter]

I think that for those retirees on a very limited income (social security) it can be a "no brainer". The biggest obstacle in my mind is learning the language enough to get by.

There are countries that have very reasonable medical insurance plans avail for expats. Secondly, many people retire in other countries that offer very low medical expences, and if need be they can always fly back to US and use their medicare (if it's still around) (Mexico or Panama are better destinations for this)

And last even for those who can afford to retire in the US, it satisfies a need for adventure and opening our horizons. Americans do far less globe trotting than do our European friends. The obvious reason of course is the proximity to other countries that we do not have that other countries do have. I think it healthy to leave our country, and see it from another perspective which I think sometime can change your perspective of America. (good or bad)

And when you stop to think about it. What do you do all day home, that you couldn't do in another country, and for a lot less money.

 

[Hydroman]

Americans do far less globe trotting than do our European friends. The obvious reason of course is the proximity to other countries that we do not have that other countries do have.

The other reason is that Europeans have a more humane vacation policy of 4-6 mandatory weeks off every year. My cousins husband is from Sweden and is a software engineer in the Silicon Valley. He says in Sweden you get at least 4 weeks off every year and everyone takes it without question. In the US, you get 2 weeks and are made to feel guilty if you actually dare to take the time off.

 

[modhatter]

Excellent point. Your absolutly right. And on top of that the average work week for many other countries is 35 hrs. a week and some are pushing for a 30 hour work week now. (at least in Europe)

 

[bpp]

bpp, you've "gone native"?

Heh, don't know that I'd say that (sounds so British Empire), but this:

It is interesting how a different environment can start working on your perceptions, your thought patterns, your reflexes.. only after a few short years.

is probably a factor.

I used to sometimes feel like I was dying for a cheeseburger, a taco, an egg roll... anything but more Italian food. But when I visited recently and had had a bit of Thai take-out or whatever.. I just found myself kind of put off by ALL the food and found myself trying to stifle an impulse to go to the grocery store and get the fixings for some cannellini beans or linguini in tuna sauce, chicken marsala, or braised fennel.

I still enjoy picking up some Vietnamese, Ethiopian or whatever food when I visit the US, though I have to remind myself that those options exist instead of unthinkingly wandering into the first ramen shop I see.

In the US, one usually talks until done, and then the other person responds, except around NY & Boston where it's commonly accepted that to speed things up it's OK to step on the end of people's sentences or finish them for them, then the other person does the same thing and you ratchet ahead in that way--once you know where the other person is going you snatch the ball and run with it.. Here in Italy, it can be normal for everyone to talk simultaneously in a kind of crazy embroidery; everyone more or less gets the general sense and freewheels along but it is hard for me to get the sense of whether facts and concepts are actually "sticking."

Sounds like Italian opera, with three people all singing different lyrics simultaneously.

I imagine in Japan there is a whole other conversational dynamic to adapt to.

Sure. For example, for sensitive or weighty subjects, people sometimes use the classical Chinese dialectic of: Thesis; Expand on thesis; Suddenly introduce exception or reversal; Wind up with completely different conclusion from original thesis. In this case you really have to wait until you are sure the other person is done in order to learn what they are saying -- can't fill in the blanks for them or overlap them. Then again, drunken bloviating at the bar can call for friendly out-shouting and interruptions.

Point is, these ways of speaking, I think, can actually modify your mental processes, making it feel awkward to go back "home."

Yup.