20 years working is all you need

[SteveR]

I think that the average college grad cannot save $150,000 by the time they are 30.  Certainly not the college grads in the part of the country where I live. My office employs a number of college grads who are not lawyers.  We pay them very competitvely for our market.  Nevertheless, they don't make near enough to start saving $3600 a month at thirty. Or even at age 40.  They are lucky if they can save $1000 a month after 30.   Certainly would be very tough if they had a family to support. So they won't retire early and won't be financially independent for a long long time, if ever.   And they do have discipline and they do have intestinal fortitude. And they do better themselves.   One of our accountants at work not only works hard in her job, but she spent a considerable time caring for her aging father who lived with her until he died recently.  FI and RE are not on the top of her list.  Family is at the top of her list.

This is back to the "I did it so anyone can" attitude I see here a lot of the time.  I just don't buy it. 

Frankly, I think selfishness ranks higher than a desire to better yourself on the list of characteristics needed to retire after 20 years of work. 

Well Said!

I have several 30 and 40 year olds working for me now.  These are educated highly techincal jobs in an exclusive field that requires years of experience in the field to qualify for these jobs.  They are making from mid $40 to mid $70k per year before taxes.  There are no other jobs like these within a 800 mile radius from here.  The people could make more back East but the like the life style here and are willing to take a small cut in wages to live like they want.  That is want life is all about; living life as you want while working in a field you like and making a difference in the world at the same time.  I don't see many here that would want to work in a job they hate for 20 years to ER.  

As for someone just going out and finding a higher paying job...that sounds like speculation based on very little experience in the work world.  Doing a job for someone else is a lot different from running your own business.  If you are in a specialized area this is more of a challenge due to the inavailability of jobs in a down economy.  Just jumping to a new higher paying job is not that simple.  You have to actually be qualified for it and the employer has to be willing to pay you for your value.  If you don't have experience it is pretty hard to demand a higher wage than someone who has been in the job for several years.  Most careers are built on moving up a career path based on experience and education (and luck).  Experience and job history create value to an employer and they pay for that in wages and bonuses.    

Can anyone FIRE in 20 years.  No, not unless they are willing to live a very frugal existence.  If you are willing to do that then go for it.  There is no award for getting there in 20 years.  If it take you 30 then so what?  The point is to do what is comfortable to you.  If you can find a career path that will get you $150k at age 30 then go for it but those jobs are few and far between and the stress that goes with these kinds of jobs will eat you up over time.  My may not live 20 years to cash in.  

 

[maddythebeagle]

Frankly, I think selfishness ranks higher than a desire to better yourself on the list of characteristics needed to retire after 20 years of work.

OUCH Is this Greg using martha's computer again?

 

[REWahoo]

Frankly, I think selfishness ranks higher than a desire to better yourself on the list of characteristics needed to retire after 20 years of work.

Martha, you are absolutely correct. I was unable to retire until I had worked 35 years due to my highly undisciplined unselfish nature.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Nobody seems to have brought up the military as being a way to reach FIRE (or at least semi-FIRE) in 20 years. Any ex-military folks here want to provide some insight?

 

[justin]

Interesting factiod from US Census -

for year 2000, median income of workers with a bachelor's degree:

Age 21-24
$27,074/yr

Age 25-34
$37,233/yr

Age 35-44
$49,197/yr

I'm guessing these numbers don't include 401k matches given by employers. And this data is 5 years old, so the numbers should be a tiny amount higher, in real terms, today.

Using rough calculations, a person making the median income during these periods, saving 10% of their income, with a 4% company match and earning 7%/yr would have $323,000 by age 44 (I know, that is 24 years of working).

Same parameters, except saving 25% of income = $669,000 by age 44.

Same parameters, except saving 50% of income = $1,246,000 by age 44.

If you assume a dual income household, and the earnings+savings double, it looks like it may be possible to FIRE at 44 with over a good bit over $1000000 if they can save 25%+ of their gross income (plus the 4% match).

Of course that is the median income, so the lower half of the population wouldn't have as much income or savings.

Is 20 years working "enough"? - a definite maybe if you can save enough, are frugal and earn the median income or more and have market returns at the historical average.

Personally, I'm in a dual income household living a moderately LBYM lifestyle in a moderate cost of living area with above median incomes for both spouses given our ages. The combination of these factors will enable us to FIRE after a total of 8-23 more years, based on current projections. That is still a long time, and I know we aren't the "average" or "median" family by any means.

 

[REWahoo]

Nobody seems to have brought up the military as being a way to reach FIRE (or at least semi-FIRE) in 20 years. Any ex-military folks here want to provide some insight?

My advice is you shouldn't seek a career in the military to reach FIRE unless you understand and accept the possibility of being FIREd upon.

 

[Lusitan]

I think we're confusing whether we're talking about (1) whether everyone SHOULD aim for FIRE after 20 years or (2) whether most people have the ABILITY to aim for FIRE after 20 years.

I disagree with the posts about inherent selfishness and inability to FIRE after 20 years working without (a) a "very frugal existence" or (b) working yourself to death.

I don't consider myself selfish for having a goal of working for 20 years. I don't necessarily want to "better myself" after FIRE either. I just want to be myself, spend my time with my loved ones, and have some new experiences. If I need to work longer to help out someone I care about, I'm sure I will.

And I don't consider our existence very frugal, although that would be a compliment! I'm always looking for ways to trim our footprint here on planet Earth, but I still realize what a privileged existence I lead ... regardless of whether I re-use ZipLoc bags or go without cable TV.

Some of the sacrifice that comes with a higher-than-average wage is working harder-than-average, doing work that is overall less-pleasant-than-average, or living in a part of the country that is less-desireable-than-average for a period of time; you'll also want to spend less than average to increase your savings.

Average gets you a "C", and you probably want to get an "A" if you're looking to FIRE.

 

[BearlyWorking]

Nobody seems to have brought up the military as being a way to reach FIRE (or at least semi-FIRE) in 20 years. Any ex-military folks here want to provide some insight?

Police and fire fighters also have 20 year careers. The fire fighters I know tend to be workaholics though. They just move on to a different career.

Martha - I consider myself to be lazy rather than selfish. A highly underappreciated quality in my view.

 

[eridanus]

Of course that is the median income, so the lower half of the population wouldn't have as much income or savings.

And the upper half would have more.

I was making $45k in my first job after grad school. A 2003 article states, "and the average offer to electrical engineering graduates fell less than 1 percent to $50,615."

So FIRE depends on what you study in college, too, and of course on your student loans.

 

[justin]

I was going to add that the typical engineering grad's salary is way higher than the median for bachelor's holders in general. Maybe 70% higher. With certain degrees, it is much easier to FIRE. Thank you, engineering degree!

 

[TomSimpsonAZ]

If you use your puny 30k salary to buy rental properties which creates a passive rental income(which doesn't do you any good in the short term because it all goes to paying the mortgage) does that count as extra salary or just a good investment of your money? I think everyone is getting caught up on the simple savings mathematics and not thinking about the many other ways to multiply wealth.....through hard work and side business.

It isn't always what you make, it is what you do with it, and you don't always have to invest it in something that steadily returns 6% to 8%.....rental properties that don't appreaciate take the 20 years to really produce returns, but once they are paid off.....well...life is good.

 

[Jarhead*]

My advice is you shouldn't seek a career in the military to reach FIRE unless you understand and accept the possibility of being FIREd upon. 

Saw on the news a few nights ago, that a regiment of Army troops were in staging, and 12 enlisted personnel were filing Conscientous Objector status.  (Awaiting orders to Iraq).

Unbelievable!  "Hell, we came in here for the benefits, we're not mad at anybody".

Jarhead, who agrees with ReWahoo, that Texas is the best college football team in the Country.

 

[SteveR]

If you use your puny 30k salary to buy rental properties which creates a passive rental income(which doesn't do you any good in the short term because it all goes to paying the mortgage) does that count as extra salary or just a good investment of your money? I think everyone is getting caught up on the simple savings mathematics and not thinking about the many other ways to multiply wealth.....through hard work and side business. 

It isn't always what you make, it is what you do with it, and you don't always have to invest it in something that steadily returns 6% to 8%.....rental properties that don't appreaciate take the 20 years to really produce returns, but once they are paid off.....well...life is good.

I think the issue is you have to save some money before you can find a place to invest it.  It would be pretty tough to make much on savings alone.  Even a savings account is an investment since it has a return on your investment.   Rentals, land, stocks, mutual funds, CDs, IBonds, pork bellies or your stamp collection can all be investments but you still have to have some $$$ to make money.  It is how and where you put it for the long term that will make your FI or an Average Joe.  

 

[Eagle43]

Saw on the news a few nights ago, that a regiment of Army troops were in staging, and 12 enlisted personnel were filing Conscientous Objector status.  (Awaiting orders to Iraq).

Unbelievable!  "Hell, we came in here for the benefits, we're not mad at anybody".

Jarhead, who agrees with ReWahoo, that Texas is the best college football team in the Country.

Like Muhammad Ali said, as he refused to step forward for the draft: "I don't hate no Viet Congs!"

 

[Nords]

Nobody seems to have brought up the military as being a way to reach FIRE (or at least semi-FIRE) in 20 years. Any ex-military folks here want to provide some insight?

My advice is you shouldn't seek a career in the military to reach FIRE unless you understand and accept the possibility of being FIREd upon.

Yeah, what he said. We survivors think that the 20-year military retirement is a pretty good deal, if you can figure out how to avoid ending up in the "other" category.

Saw on the news a few nights ago, that a regiment of Army troops were in staging, and 12 enlisted personnel were filing Conscientous Objector status.  (Awaiting orders to Iraq).

The Navy has even seen a bit of that.

Hey, at least the serious COs during the Vietnam war avoided the draft by serving in hospitals or in other ways. The last-minute CO ploy from an active-duty guy (or an activated Reservist/NG) gets as much respect from the military today as it did during the Vietnam war, but these CO-wannabes usually don't jump through the required hoops in the correct manner. No brig or BCD, just an OTHD and no benefits.

Of course the shipmate who's left with a port&stbd watch rotation has a different idea of what the miscreant should receive...

 

[Jarhead*]

Hey, at least the serious COs during the Vietnam war avoided the draft by serving in hospitals or in other ways.  The last-minute CO ploy from an active-duty guy (or an activated Reservist/NG) gets as much respect from the military today as it did during the Vietnam war, but these CO-wannabes usually don't jump through the required hoops in the correct manner.  No brig or BCD, just an OTHD and no benefits.

Nords: Not shooting the messenger here, but
I find it incredible that an active duty military
individual can refuse a combat assignment, and not be subject to a severe run-in with the U.C.M.J. (Brig time & at best BCD).

"I'll take your benefits, but when the s--- hits the fan, somebody else can do it."
Inf---ing credible !

Jarhead, who agrees with ReWahoo, that Texas is the best college football team in the Country.

 

[Jarhead*]

Like Muhammad Ali said, as he refused to step forward for the draft: "I don't hate no Viet Congs!"

Jarhead, who agrees with ReWahoo, that Texas has the best college football team in the Country.

 

[BearlyWorking]

Thread summary (so far) for Young Dreamers.

If you are reading this then you are probably interested whether a short career is possible, the subject of this thread. Rather than having to wade through the whole thing I have tried to summarize the discussion to date. Let me know what I have missed or miss-stated.

Is a 20 year career possible as a goal?

Yes. People on this board have done it. You may have to take some investment risks, work at higher paying jobs, and/or be frugal. The important thing though is that it can be done.

Can anyone FIRE after 20 years?

No. If you high living expenses, a low wage job, a poor saver and/or are uncomfortable with riskier investments then you will likely be working many years.

Is using a 20 year ‘clock’ a good goal?

That’s for you to decide. If it is useful to achieve your goals in life then it is good. If it doesn’t motivate you to save or invest, then it is not a good goal. Remember, life may be shorter than you think. Don’t defer living now to live later. None of us knows how much time we have on our personal clocks.

What are important things to consider if you want to have a 20 year career?

Make a simple plan and stay with it.
Keep savings as automatic as possible.
Aggressively seek better wages.
Live frugally – LBYM.
Invest wisely.
Taking investment risks can help, but take them early.
Live now, but work on developing good spending/saving habits.
Save as much as early as you can. The earliest $ are the best $.
A person telling you that something is impossible is a good sign that it isn’t.
Try not to be your own worst enemy!

 

[retire@40]

Thread summary (so far) for Young Dreamers.

If you are reading this then you are probably interested whether a short career is possible, the subject of this thread.  Rather than having to wade through the whole thing I have tried to summarize the discussion to date.  Let me know what I have missed or miss-stated.

Is a 20 year career possible as a goal?

Yes.  People on this board have done it.  You may have to take some investment risks, work at higher paying jobs, and/or be frugal.  The important thing though is that it can be done.

Can anyone FIRE after 20 years?

No.  If you high living expenses, a low wage job, a poor saver and/or are uncomfortable with riskier investments then you will likely be working many years.

Is using a 20 year ‘clock’ a good goal?

That’s for you to decide.  If it is useful to achieve your goals in life then it is good.  If it doesn’t motivate you to save or invest, then it is not a good goal.  Remember, life may be shorter than you think.  Don’t defer living now to live later.  None of us knows how much time we have on our personal clocks.

What are important things to consider if you want to have a 20 year career?

Make a simple plan and stay with it.
Keep savings as automatic as possible.
Aggressively seek better wages.
Live frugally – LBYM.
Invest wisely.
Taking investment risks can help, but take them early.
Live now, but work on developing good spending/saving habits.
Save as much as early as you can. The earliest $ are the best $.
A person telling you that something is impossible is a good sign that it isn’t.
Try not to be your own worst enemy!

Good job. Could you apply the same unbiased approach to some other long threads on this board. It would save me the trouble of wading through them.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Good job.  Could you apply the same unbiased approach to some other long threads on this board.  It would save me the trouble of wading through them.

How about paddling through them in a kayak?

 

[retire@40]

How about paddling through them in a kayak?

Some of them are pretty bad and may require a kayak.

Some are even worse and require a shovel.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Some of them are pretty bad and may require a kayak. 

Some are even worse and require a shovel.

Better make sure you have a decent supply of wheat bread...you wouldn't want to get hungry.

 

[BearlyWorking]

Ya, but you gotta love the sense of humor!

 

[audreyh1]

I tell you what can mess up FIRE plans big time! DIVORCE

Quite a few folks restart close to zero after a divorce.

So, avoid that too....

Audrey

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

I tell you what can mess up FIRE plans big time!  DIVORCE

Quite a few folks restart close to zero after a divorce.

So, avoid that too....

Audrey

But who would get the kayak in the divorce? Would it be cut in half?