anyone with a phd?

[BunsGettingFirm]

Thanks rich -

i know what i want to study - and will be contacting my old prof's to talk about what it is really like.

i know politics all too well! just hoping it will be more motivating to deal with them for personal benefit then just a salary - although perhaps all the more stressful huh?

i have heard of very crazy advisors, committees etc. so that is why i want to get the inside track from people who are currently studying there...

i could pursue a phd or masters track that is more lucrative economically - but alas that does not have any appeal for me at the moment.

everything lately has been about pursuing your passion so i think i'm finally coming to the point where i will be brave enough to give it a go! but again i have the time to explore it all before diving in and making any hasty decisions...

How would you like having your research stolen? I have heard two such stories, one from a colleague who's now doing her MBA after getting out of her biomedical Ph.D. and one from my uncle who has a Ph.D. in computer science. You'd be surprised how desperate people can get when they have no money and their entire hope for the future hinges on their getting their Ph.D.

I see the same desperation in my fellow MBA students. They always ask why I don't seem all that worried, and I just smile...

 

[bright eyed]

i actually had heard something similar too. a friend had her advisor steal her thesis and made her come up with a new one...i guess business schools aren't the only ones in need of ethics courses...

ok, i'm getting depressed...

 

[Milton]

I think you will find that, on average, a theoretical physicist receives his PhD in less time than the average PhD physicist. I believe the correct number for a theoretician is more like 4 years (of full-time study) after a bachelor's degree. Theoretical physicists, on average, tend to be brighter than experimentalists. They also don't have to spend years building and testing equipment to provide the necessary environment to do their research (e.g. low-temperature work).

Point Number One: this silly debate reminds me of the arguments I used to hear in university about which was the more difficult engineering programme: applied mathematics, or engineering physics. As the arts students' newpaper said, this is like arguing over who has the uglier girlfriend.

Point Number Two: Who cares? The original poster was clear that he or she was considering a doctoral programme in one of the social sciences. That's a very different path/experience from physics (theoretical or otherwise).

 

[FIRE'd@51]

Point Number Two: Who cares? The original poster was clear that he or she was considering a doctoral programme in one of the social sciences. That's a very different path/experience from physics (theoretical or otherwise).

I agree that it's probably not worth caring about. However, please note that I was not responding to the original poster, but to another poster who claimed that theoretical physicists, on average, take three years longer to finish their PhD's than the average physicist.

 

[kcowan]

I have a good buddy and former classmate who is a theroretical physicist. Definitely not a field to get into if you like money. Maybe fame if you get lucky.

I was accepted for the PhD program at Berkeley but decided to get a job instead. Whereas I am now a retired IT executive, my friend will be a theroretical physicist until he dies...

 

[SingleMomDreamer]

I have a PhD in sociology. I pursued it because it was a passion. I found that I thoroughly love research methods and finding answers to those puzzling questions. But I also anticipated that it would lead to a livelihood. That didn't happen for a long time. My dissertation was broad for the field, a little "off-center" from the traditional topics, my experience was based on applied research, which didn't sit well with some of the snobby universities when it came time to apply for jobs, and I ended up fighting for survival for several years after the PhD. The teaching part is not nearly as glamourous as it sounds--especially as the education system has moved toward multiple-choice standards testing and away from critical thinking and basic writing/grammar skills.

But am I glad I have the PhD? YES. Partly, it's a measure of survival. I'm proud to be Dr. .... I now have a research-based career that makes an impact at local and national levels. The work I do makes a difference in the world, or so I'd like to think.

Yet pursuing a PhD is a personal decision. No one on this forum can tell you what to do. I remember a professor telling me, after I had completed all course work and the necessary exams, that if I moved, I would never finish. Well, I did move, and I did finish. So there are no rules that apply to everyone.

By the way, I had a full scholarship/assistantship and then went on to full-time employment--left graduate school with a debt under $3,000 and that was for an IBM 286 computer! But I also didn't have a spouse/child and witnessed a lot of divorces among my peers. The bottom line--if it's your passion and you are doing it to build a fulfilling future, go for it. If you think it's going to pay off financially, turn around now.

Good luck!

 

[Martha]

Sociology absolutely fascinates me. If I had another life. . .


I am very curious as to your dissertation topic. PM me if you are willing to share.

 

[kcowan]

But I also anticipated that it would lead to a livelihood. That didn't happen for a long time. My dissertation was broad for the field...

My friend with the PhD in theoretical physics delivered phonebooks as his first gainful employment after getting the degree. Then Post-Doc fellowships. Finally a modest consulting business.

But he has spent his whole life doing something he loves. The work is its own reward. Plus he owns both his office and his home (which they run as a B&B).

 

[bright eyed]

maybe the theoretical guys can test their theories on the experimental guys and see who can break the time continuum first? or they can consult for shows like heroes... :

physics is an awesome discipline but it gives me a gigantic headache

 

[Jeffrey]

Basis for my opinions: both my wife and I have PhD's in the humanities from Ivy/major universities. We both had tenure track academic jobs but left to go to private industry 8 years ago and wish we had left earlier.

An ER forum is a very strange place to ask about getting a PhD in the humanities. It is perhaps the worst possible route to ER I can think of other than community theatre acting. Our net worth went from near zero to 3 mill in the 8 years since we left academia. My suggestion: earn a bundle outside academia, and then enroll in the PhD program of your choice once retired and research to your heart's content without worrying whether your advisor or review committee agrees with you as you struggle to support a family. I believe the ex-CEO of IBM is earning a degree in Chinese Archeology once he retired from IBM.

I have to ask: why do you want a PhD in the humanities? Do you wish to teach at a university? That is the only real reason to want one. What do you think university teaching in the humanities is actually like?

The reason that PhDs in the humanities typically take 6-10 years now, is that the publishing requirements to get a tenure-track entry level job interview now rival those needed to get tenure 30 years ago. It takes the extra years not to get a mere thesis, but a sustained body of reviewed and published work, that can enable you to even get an interview at a legitimate university. (I know several academic theoretical physicists, and it is the same there.) The reason has nothing to do with intelligence, and everything to do with the dearth of tenure-track jobs in those areas.

 

[Nords]

My suggestion: earn a bundle outside academia, and then enroll in the PhD program of your choice once retired and research to your heart's content without worrying whether your advisor or review committee agrees with you as you struggle to support a family.

This reminds me of TromboneAl's advice:
"Jazz is a career you have to save up for..."

 

[bright eyed]

Basis for my opinions: both my wife and I have PhD's in the humanities from Ivy/major universities. We both had tenure track academic jobs but left to go to private industry 8 years ago and wish we had left earlier.

An ER forum is a very strange place to ask about getting a PhD in the humanities. It is perhaps the worst possible route to ER I can think of other than community theatre acting. Our net worth went from near zero to 3 mill in the 8 years since we left academia. My suggestion: earn a bundle outside academia, and then enroll in the PhD program of your choice once retired and research to your heart's content without worrying whether your advisor or review committee agrees with you as you struggle to support a family. I believe the ex-CEO of IBM is earning a degree in Chinese Archeology once he retired from IBM.

I have to ask: why do you want a PhD in the humanities? Do you wish to teach at a university? That is the only real reason to want one. What do you think university teaching in the humanities is actually like?

The reason that PhDs in the humanities typically take 6-10 years now, is that the publishing requirements to get a tenure-track entry level job interview now rival those needed to get tenure 30 years ago. It takes the extra years not to get a mere thesis, but a sustained body of reviewed and published work, that can enable you to even get an interview at a legitimate university. (I know several academic theoretical physicists, and it is the same there.) The reason has nothing to do with intelligence, and everything to do with the dearth of tenure-track jobs in those areas.

thanks for the info jeffrey -

i know it's a huge stab at the ER plans - which is why i needed to ask and get spanked but getting it was always somewhere in the "future" - i imagined in a much greyer state of being. not sure i'd ever have the type of $ the ibm ceo has!

recently had a terrible terrible bout with work and made me reevaluate my plans - but i am looking at a wide spectrum of options like masters programs - some more technically focused than a humanity one...at this point other jobs in my field don't seem very promising, but i could be wrong about that and just need to give myself some space.

the good thing is that this process has made me realize i do have more options and flexibility than i had previously let myself consider - like a somewhat lesser paying position that has a better fitting job description...and opportunities for me to flex my other skills, besides the ones i currently utilize...

 

[sgeeeee]

I really enjoyed my time in grad school. DW and I worked for a couple of years after getting our undergraduate degrees, so we gave up a significant income stream when I went back for graduate work. She went back to school to get an engineering degree on a coop program at the same time. We lived in a hovel in a high crime neighborhood in Raleigh, NC without air conditioning. I worked long hours studying and doing research for a small research assistant salary, but I loved it. My research colleagues from grad school are still among my best friends. My experience in grad school involved far less politics than my later jobs as a professor and in industry. I realize not everyone has as positive an experience with graduate school as I did, but it was great for me.

If you decide to pursue a PhD, I hope you have as enjoyable and valuable an experience as I did.

 

[eyeonFI]

I have a PhD, I'm a tenured prof at a research school, and for the last year I've been the director of my department's PhD program.

I think there's been a lot of good feedback in this thread, and most of what I'd say in response to the inital post has already been written by Robert the Red and Grep, so I won't repeat it. There's just one thing I'll add, that I didn't notice in any of the earlier responses. That is to really think about WHY you want the PhD - i.e., what you want to do with it afterwards - and make sure the school(s) you apply to have those things as goals for their graduates.

Different schools have different expectations for what their students will do after finishing the PhD. Likewise, they provide different kinds of training. For example, in my department, we have one goal in producing PhD students: we expect them to go on to tenure-track positions at major research universities. NOT to go to teaching schools. NOT to become consultants or work for industry. If we can tell from someone's application that they have one of the latter goals (or any goal other than to be a researcher), we will not accept them into the program.

Similarly, when we are hiring junior faculty we will only look at people who have their PhDs from schools that have a good record of training students in research. If you get your PhD from a "teaching school," your job options afterwards will be more limited.

So, if you decide to pursue this, make sure there is a match between your goals and the training/goals of the school(s) you apply to.

 

[rw86347]

Personally I see a PHD as giving up on ER. At least in my field, experiance is more valued, and in the mean time I could make an extra $500K. I would rather put that money towards ER.

 

[OKLibrarian]

I have a friend with a Ph.D in English/Gender Studies from a tolerably good university who recently spent the better part of a year homeless because he couldn't find an adjunct job that year. This past year he got an instructor position that paid his expenses and not much else. If he doesn't get a new contract there or elsewhere for the fall, he's going to be back to homelessness--though he did manage to buy a car while working this year, so he'll probably be living in that instead of couch surfing. He's 46 years old. I grant you he's an extreme case, but it is within the realm of possibility. Needless to say, I would suggest you think very hard before taking the plunge, and pay attention to all the good advice above.

 

[Spanky]

we expect them to go on to tenure-track positions at major research universities. NOT to go to teaching schools. NOT to become consultants or work for industry. If we can tell from someone's application that they have one of the latter goals (or any goal other than to be a researcher), we will not accept them into the program.

Where do industries get their PhDs?

Similarly, when we are hiring junior faculty we will only look at people who have their PhDs from schools that have a good record of training students in research. If you get your PhD from a "teaching school," your job options afterwards will be more limited.

I thought most of the teachings at research universities are performed by TAs. It's ridiculous to pay big $ to attend a research university for an undergraduate degree other than a piece of paper from a top research university.

 

[LOL!]

Where do industries get their PhDs?

I thought most of the teachings at research universities are performed by TAs. It's ridiculous to pay big $ to attend a research university for an undergraduate degree other than a piece of paper from a top research university.

Although I used to work in academia, I now work in industry. Four PhDs report to me. None of them ever worked as teachers or professors. They were hired by us after they completed their doctorates at their university. That's where industries get their PhDs: from doctoral programs at universities.

I think it depends on the research university that one attends whether teaching is done by TAs or not. In my undergraduate days, I had only one single course taught by an older mathemaAtics grad student. All my other courses were taught by professors (including a future Nobel laureate).

One's opportunities may depend on the research university as well. I was able to begin research at the end of my sophomore year and publish a couple of papers as an undergraduate. This helped me get into a great research university for my doctorate, which helped land a great post-doc, which helped land great academic job, which helped me reached financial indpendence.

 

[Meadbh]

I'm amazed at the number of PhDs on this forum. Obviously a smart bunch!

I know one individual who completed a PhD in 3 years at age 24 and whose research led to a startup company that is expanding in leaps and bounds. OTOH I know another individual in her 50s who has spent the last decade working on her PhD, away from her family. Now she's in poor health and ready to retire. Financially, a significant net loss, and ten years of sacrifice for the satisfaction of learning.

I looked for hard data on the return on investment. According to this site Will Getting an Education Pay for Itself? : Education Advisor a doctoral degree has an NPV of $617,900 and a FV of $4,818,400 compared with a bachelor's degree. However, I see that earnings also peak at a later age. So if you are thinking of a PhD as a financial strategy, do it early in your career. It certainly is not the most logical path to FIRE. From a purely financial POV, skill related courses probably have a better payoff for much less commitment. Of course, money is only one factor.

Disclaimer: I don't have a PhD. I have a doctoral degree (MD) and a masters (MBA).

 

[Spanky]

Although I used to work in academia, I now work in industry. Four PhDs report to me. None of them ever worked as teachers or professors. They were hired by us after they completed their doctorates at their university. That's where industries get their PhDs: from doctoral programs at universities.

Thanks for the info. Obviously these PhDs did not graduate from eyeonFI's research university. Admittance should be based on merits and the topic of research but not whether the candidate wants to pursue a tenured track. Most of the people at work receive their PhDs from top research universities, MIT, Standford, Minnesota and UW-madison. As you said, none of them worked as a professor.

 

[rw86347]

I'm amazed at the number of PhDs on this forum. Obviously a smart bunch!

I know one individual who completed a PhD in 3 years at age 24 and whose research led to a startup company that is expanding in leaps and bounds. OTOH I know another individual in her 50s who has spent the last decade working on her PhD, away from her family. Now she's in poor health and ready to retire. Financially, a significant net loss, and ten years of sacrifice for the satisfaction of learning.

I looked for hard data on the return on investment. According to this site Will Getting an Education Pay for Itself? : Education Advisor a doctoral degree has an NPV of $617,900 and a FV of $4,818,400 compared with a bachelor's degree. However, I see that earnings also peak at a later age. So if you are thinking of a PhD as a financial strategy, do it early in your career. It certainly is not the most logical path to FIRE. From a purely financial POV, skill related courses probably have a better payoff for much less commitment. Of course, money is only one factor.

Disclaimer: I don't have a PhD. I have a doctoral degree (MD) and a masters (MBA).

Have you ever read "millionaire next door"? His findings that the wealthy in america where usually those fanatical savers who started saving in their early 20's.

My take was that an early fantical saver will be so much farther ahead, that by the time an MD get out of residency, pays off student loans, pays off a practice it is almost too late. Even then many feel like they deserve the BMW.

One of my sisters friends barely graduated from high school. He then went to start a landscaping company. While I was still in college, he owned his own home, had 20 employees, and spent the winters in belize.

Save early, save often.