"Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

[Sandy]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

I wonder if they would be doing this if one of the kids wanted to be a swimmer or chess master? Seems like these parents , who both have musical talent in their background are living through their kids.

I suspect they would rachet down the pressure and spending, letting the kid(s) progress at their own rate of interest and skill if it was in a different direction.

 

[figner]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a ce

I agree with pretty much everybody that this family is creating their own road to financial ruin by overspending. But regarding the cost of a good string instrument, it's fairly common (I'd guess even typical) for a professional violinist in a good orchestra to have a $50k+ instrument. Not to mention the cost of a good bow, probably $15k+. If they're a touring concert soloist, probably at least double the cost, with $500k+ not unheard of at the highest level of "classical stardom".

Not to say a kid requires that caliber of instrument before turning pro, but if they're truly a prodigy and can afford it, I don't think spending that amount on instruments is unreasonable. It does make a difference in the sound, and the sound/feel of the instrument can make a difference in the quality of playing.

 

[TromboneAl]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Well, while we're talking about how bad people are...

Another thing I see is parents who continue to spend $50/week for music lessons, and the kid doesn't practice at all. Everyone knows he/she isn't practicing, but they all continue with the charade.

 

[bright eyed]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

i totally did that - hated hated hated practicing

would fake it and most of the time not at all.

never learned to read music, just played by ear. had lessons for about/at least 5 years or so and can barely play a tune now!!!

used to pretend to be sick or whatever i could to get out of it!

 

[wabmester]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

i totally did that - hated hated hated practicing

My wife was the same way. She was reluctant to have our kid start taking piano lessons because of that. I'm going to sound like a commercial, but Suzuki addresses that problem head-on.

Parents are forced encouraged to participate. The teacher focuses on making it fun, no negative correction -- only positive reinforcement, pretty clever layering of musical complexity in the lesson structure, emphasis on playing in front of peers and others to boost self-confidence and eradicate performance anxiety, etc.

People (especially traditional teachers) are still skeptical about the method, but the results speak for themselves.

 

[Darryl]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Uh, they should definitely go for it if they can afford it, but for the noted family it's way over their head.
My son's second year of Orchestra and I'm still renting his Viola for $43 a month. Have to check with DW as she use's cookie jar money to pay for his private lessons I believe $50-100 month. Kid loves it and practices every day. Makes the house sound great (glad he didn't like the drums).
His college fund and our retirement are intact and growing on schedule.
What were they thinking? Were they thinking

 

[citrine]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

I couldn't believe this article....what a pair of numbnuts!!!

Hopefully, neither of the girls will fall in love and become teenage moms!
I couldn't believe that they drive 2500 miles to go for a competition and the girls don't even make it to the top 9!!!

How are these kids going to develop any character if everything is sacrificed and handed to them on a silver platter **off soapbox**

 

[Nords]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Well, thank goodness they didn't have to sell the horses!

These people are truly delusional-- everyone knows that equestrians can't ever afford to retire.

Hey, T-Al, is your group looking for a couple of really good string players? Maybe you guys could collaborate over the Internet!

 

[Dreamer]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

They are definitely nuts! I kept being more and more astonished the further I read. They are definitely not doing these kids a favor. I am afraid that the kids will not know how to live in the real world, once they are on their own. I think that the parents are one step away from financial disaster. What are they thinking?

Some of the activities that my 2 children participated in were: baseball, basketball, soccer, martial arts, gymnastics, swimming, various dance classes, viola, clarinet, trombone and guitar lessons, art classes, Odyssey of the Mind, Destination Imagination, band, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Neither of my children were really exceptional at anything that they participated in. I have no idea how much money that we spent on those activities over the years. No where near what they are spending for 1 year though. My children had fun doing these activities, playing with other children and this was part of our life. I think it helped their self-esteem. I have no regrets spending the money on this. However, I would not have done this is we could not have afforded it. We were able to afford this, pay our bills timely and save for retirement. I can not fathom how they had the money to pay the taxes that they knew they owed and spent it anyway. I would not be able to sleep at night!

 

[igsoy]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a ce

When the article first mentioned hoping to earn a "coveted conservatory slot", I was thinking Julliard or Eastman or Jacobs or Curtis, or even a program at a large state university. But getting a scholarship to the College of Saint Rose? Do they really feel link that's a satisfying culmination of the years of study and money?

I think they are probably just having her start there for 2 years. It's free lessons, orchestral training, theory, possibly free accompanist, then when she is a more accomplished soloist, I bet she will try to get a scholarship to one of the above schools. They just haven't told St. Rose that, yet.

it's fairly common (I'd guess even typical) for a professional violinist in a good orchestra to have a $50k+ instrument. Not to mention the cost of a good bow, probably $15k+. If they're a touring concert soloist, probably at least double the cost, with $500k+ not unheard of at the highest level of "classical stardom".

I'd have to say your numbers are outdated. Top level stars playing Strads go from 1 to almost 4 million. There has been a great appreciation in the price of good instruments all the way down to high school level. I'd say it would be hard to get a job in a good orchestra with a $50k violin, it simply would not have the resonance to fit into the section. I have friends who are just jobbers making their living out of many small orchestras/weddings/teaching, and their instruments bought 25 years ago are now worth so much they got threatened that they would be sold in their divorce settlement proceedings.


Someone else posted about their pianist friend and remarked that there wasn't much to aspire to as far as a career in music. Well, as a pianist, that is probably true, but as a violinist, there is the orchestral avenue. Granted there is fierce competition, but the big 5 endowed orchestras (NY,Boston,Philly,Chicago,LA) pay very well, (plus those musicians are able to charge $250/hr for teaching lessons, or could book a 4 day recital tour and pull in a quick $20k.) And there are many other large cities (Atlanta, Cleveland,Houston,SF, Detroit,Montreal,Toronto, Pittsburgh,St.Louis, Indianapolis,Baltimore),that pay around double the national median and still offer an exeptional career making beautiful music. And then there are too many other cities to list where you can still earn the median wage doing what you love, and as long as you can manage to not get jaded about your coworkers, conductors, etc... you still get to make beautiful music for a living. Each of those numerous groups has about 24 violins, so there are opportunities, you just have to be the best one that day and persistent and lucky.

I don't think these folks are crazy with the music stuff, (it's no worse than the high investment doctors and lawyers have to make to get into their business), it's just the other things like horses and not having a job when you need more money coming in.

 

[chinaco]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

I'll bet the music teachers & institutions are smiling.

Training is good. It can provide insights a little more quickly. The rest is practice, perseverance, and natural talent. Whether it is $10k/yr or $100k/yr going into the education, for that gig... talent is the real differentiator at the end of the day!

Funny thing is some fool with no music training doing the 1 finger slash on a guitar screaming profanity will make more money and probably be considered more sucessful!

 

[HFWR]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Funny thing is some fool with no music training doing the 1 finger slash on a guitar screaming profanity will make more money and probably be considered more sucessful!

"Six strings, five fingers, three chords, one *******..." Keith Richards

 

[Sarah in SC]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Runchman, that is the funniest commercial I have ever seen! All of my childfree friends have received the link--thank you SO MUCH! Hilarious!

I grew up on horses, and it was a very intensive hobby that I have not pursued as an adult due to the cost. Competitive riding can become skys-the-limit expensive and I saw plenty of people spending every dime they had so little Ashley could have the best horse, the best riding clothes, and the finest training. All this so she could fall for the stable boy and get knocked up.

Sarah

 

[BarbaraAnne]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a ce

Yeesh! When I was in high school I took up the contrabass clarinet - an unusual instrument, much more expensive than a regular clarinet (all of $1k). The school bought it and loaned it to me. I doubt they can afford to do that kind of thing anymore, though - lots of schools can't afford music programs, even.

You are so right! You wouldn't believe the money it costs to have a kid in the high school band today! Between instruments, lessons, trips etc it was several thousand a year for our kid! In addition, the parents throw all kinds of money at the music director who has no problem wasting it. Our high school band directors had to hire professionals to personally arrange the marching band music because buying music "off the shelf" was beneath them. Of course the parents funded it, no questions asked.

Those of you with young kids, be prepared. School activities and sports are in a different league today than when we were growing up. It is a big $$ business!!

 

[runchman]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a ce

Runchman, that is the funniest commercial I have ever seen! All of my childfree friends have received the link--thank you SO MUCH! Hilarious!

I have to of course put out the standard parent line, "I wouldn't trade my children for anything they are the best thing in the world". Which I also do believe; I am very, very attached to my daughters.

I will say though that you can keep the first 3 years. It really isn't until the kid turns 4 that a rational human begins to appear. There are only so many times you want to do a 4-piece jigsaw puzzle with your child. I wasn't sorry to see those years pass by.

Anyway if you go to youtube and search for 'condom ad', you'll get a lot of entertaining ones.

That's how I spent a good part of my morning at work here today

- John

 

[figner]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a ce

I'd have to say your numbers are outdated. Top level stars playing Strads go from 1 to almost 4 million. There has been a great appreciation in the price of good instruments all the way down to high school level. I'd say it would be hard to get a job in a good orchestra with a $50k violin, it simply would not have the resonance to fit into the section. I have friends who are just jobbers making their living out of many small orchestras/weddings/teaching, and their instruments bought 25 years ago are now worth so much they got threatened that they would be sold in their divorce settlement proceedings.

That's why I was careful to use $50k+/$500k+, as in $50k/$500k would be on the lower end of costs. I'm aware of the multimillion dollar strads. And actually I know a member of the LA Phil who plays on an approx $50k violin. From my point of view good instruments haven't appreciated much more than inflation over the last 15 years - I've tried out many violins and violas in shops around LA, and you can still get a reasonable gig/teaching instrument for between $10-20k. My own are on the low side of that range, and do just fine playing gigs. Also, in many cases you can find cheaper instruments with good sound, or more expensive ones with worse sound, because sound isn't the only thing instruments are priced by (though for musicians, it's often the most important thing).

Someone else posted about their pianist friend and remarked that there wasn't much to aspire to as far as a career in music. Well, as a pianist, that is probably true, but as a violinist, there is the orchestral avenue. Granted there is fierce competition, but the big 5 endowed orchestras (NY,Boston,Philly,Chicago,LA) pay very well, (plus those musicians are able to charge $250/hr for teaching lessons, or could book a 4 day recital tour and pull in a quick $20k.) And there are many other large cities (Atlanta, Cleveland,Houston,SF, Detroit,Montreal,Toronto, Pittsburgh,St.Louis, Indianapolis,Baltimore),that pay around double the national median and still offer an exeptional career making beautiful music. And then there are too many other cities to list where you can still earn the median wage doing what you love, and as long as you can manage to not get jaded about your coworkers, conductors, etc... you still get to make beautiful music for a living. Each of those numerous groups has about 24 violins, so there are opportunities, you just have to be the best one that day and persistent and lucky.

I think the above is a bit on the optimistic side. $250/hr is very expensive for lessons in LA, and only the very top teachers (not most players even in major orchestras) command that rate. Nor do I think most members of the Phil could regularly book a $20k 4day tour. The orchestra salaries are indeed not bad in the better orchestras, but there's so much competition for them that when a single spot opens up you'll have hundreds auditioning, and it's common to travel across the country for a promising audition.

Don't get me wrong, I think it can be a rewarding career and make a reasonable living (or for a very few, a spectacular living). As you say, if you're both skilled and lucky, it may work out.

 

[HFWR]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Again, I don't know much about "fiddles", except that my playing sounds like a sick cat. I do, however, know a bit about guitars, and at some point, maybe $5k-$10k, you're just buying a penile extension there's a rapidly diminishing return on your "investment". Heck, you can spend maybe three grand on a Martin or Taylor, and it would be hard to get more playability or better sound.

Anecdote: Eric Johnson, a noted guitarist from Texas, is said to be able to discern differences in batteries in his effect pedals, or if the "polarity" of his cables are reversed. (I'm not talking switched ground here; he claims one end is made to be connected to the guitar, the other to the amp...). Probably all urban legend, particularly since the guy has tinnitus from playing in front of Marshalls and Fender Twins cranked to 11 for years...

Probably not 1% of the audience could tell the difference, although the musician might. So they should probably wait until the child(ren) are grown, and are first violin in a major orchestra, before worrying about spending that kind of cash...

 

[Celany]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

These parents say that they're doing this because they love their kids & don't mind sacrificing for them. But I can't help wonder, if we put the shoe on the other foot (or other feet).

- If the parent's had found out that THEIR own parents had sacrificied like that to do something for them...would they want to live a certain way, knowing they caused their parents so much stress?

- If their 2 girls had kids (so, their grandkids) & those grandkids caused their girls to sacrifice like that, would they want their girls to have such a hard stressful life, just for the grandkids?

I hope that makes sense.

 

[haha]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a ce

I don't think these folks are crazy with the music stuff, (it's no worse than the high investment doctors and lawyers have to make to get into their business), it's just the other things like horses and not having a job when you need more money coming in.

You are right except that doctors and lawyers don't have to audition for a run of the mill job against 250 other aspirants. I have a son who was an excellent violist. At age 14 he was playing not in a youth orchestra, but in the orchestra of a city of over 75,000 people. He was offered a scholarship to a conservatory in Belgium. I saw a lot of what these young people go through, and what it does to them. It is no bed of roses for people who do make either. Orchestra players keep an army of Alexander Technique, Pilates, Yoga, massage therapists, and Shiatsu practitioners etc. in business.

Not to mention how many asshat conductors they may have to sleep with along the way, something that likely isn't made clear to these fresh young ladies early on.

I was so happy when my boy saw the same things that I saw, and decided that software was for him. Not that software is an easy career; it isn’t. But the rewards often are much greater. Even with great success in his field, he is still a bit nostalgic about letting go of the level of performance that daily 4 hour practices and frequent teaching by real experts produces and maintains. Playing classical music well must be an incredible high, because the extrinsic rewards in the huge majority of cases don't begin to make up for the money, pain and suffering that goes into it.

Ha

 

[Milton]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Seems like these parents , who both have musical talent in their background are living through their kids.

Indeed. The most telling passage in the article was the mother's reaction to the recommendation to purchase adequate term life insurance:

"Lea cringes at this advice, confessing a fatalistic distain for life insurance. 'If I'm alive, we're on track,' she says. 'I die, it's over. They better become waitresses.'"

Really sad. With an attitude like that, she has no business being a parent.

 

[FlowGirl]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a ce

Maybe it takes that kind of investment and sacrifice and obsession to produce a Tiger Woods or a Yo-Yo Ma. But for everyone of those successes there are a thousand other "losers" who never even come close to making it and end up having a very one-dimensional childhood. Of course we never hear about the "losers" so people just get caught up in the success stories and think they have the secret forumla for producing a genius or a champion.

Odds tell me that we're better off fuding my son's college fund and future IRAs (and our own!) than buying him a fancy violin. But then he's only 4 months old and so far his biggest talent is being able to roll over in both directions, so who knows?

 

[NinjaPigeon]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a ce

I'm all for supporting your kids, but not by jeopardizing my family's future. They are being irresponsible.

 

[haha]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Here we go again, doing what we do best: disapproving of how others choose to live their lives.

Ha

 

[sgeeeee]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Here we go again, doing what we do best: disapproving of how others choose to live their lives.

Ha

I approve of your disapproval of the way we disapprove.

 

[Gumby]

Re: "Exceptional costs of exceptional kids" (or: blowing your retirement on a cello)

Here we go again, doing what we do best: disapproving of how others choose to live their lives.

Ha

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but if it differs from mine -- well, then, you're just wrong.