life is good....for her

[MuirWannabe]

Right. But that's not a good reason to not even try to re-enter the work force. It is a good reason to set expectations properly, especially in this economy. Good, decent-paying full time work will be hard to find now. But if you can start small and prove yourself once in the door, it can lead to something more. Based on what I'm hearing (from one side), that's how I think it might best be played.

I agree with this. It has occured to me that her being a 2nd wage earner offers some hedge against the possibility of my job being lost. I work at a good megacorp. But in this economy anything is possible

I want to retire because I'm tired of the major stress associated with my job. I want to enjoy life and detoxify from the work environment. But I'm not trying to be overly unrealistic. I know I can't retire until my son has moved thru college..still 8 years away. It's not like I'm trying to retire tomorrow (I wish!).

My pay is excellent...$177 base. But we manage to spend to this level. I see her potential salary as actual wealth building.

I do agree that unless she can earn to a certain level then it may not be worth it. My tax bracket stinks. It sounds like I grossly underrate the difficulty in finding an low/avg paying job.

My wife is great. I love her very much. She has been a great SAHM. I don't want to terrorize her or intimidate her. I just want to be healthy and around to enjoy a nice retirement with her.

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions!

 

[Moemg]

My pay is excellent...$177 base. But we manage to spend to this level. I see her potential salary as actual wealth building.

Underspending your salary is probably going to save a lot more than your wife having a minimum wage job. Start tracking your expenses and make cuts . Maybe your wife will dislike the cuts so much she will willingly get a job.

 

[clifp]

I am not married, so a larger than normal disclaimer applies to my "advice".

Even if she can find a job in this economy, isn't the after tax impact of an additional 30 or 40K going to be pretty marginal? Once you get over 200K, it seem likely that you are in area where the new proposed tax hikes start to kick in. Although I have seen the 250K figure also discussed.


I also think it just a horrible time to start looking for a job. I've toyed with the idea of coming out of retirement, and I decide I am not even going to bother looking until unemployment drops to a reasonable level 7-8%.. Unless some fabulously opportunity drops into her lap, find a job in this environment can be very depressing.

On the other hand I do think it is important the you get her on board with an early retirement. Pick a date after the youngest is out of college seems logical, and explain how much saving you will need to hit that date.

I'd start with sacrifices that you'd be willing to make (Golf trips, selling the sports car etc.) to achieve the goal. Move on to areas where you both can cut back dining out, fancy vacations, sending the kid to a state school etc.

I'd sell the job as way that she can continue to enjoy the stuff is important to her, rather than as way of letting you retire early.

 

[LOL!]

Even if she can find a job in this economy, isn't the after tax impact of an additional 30 or 40K going to be pretty marginal?

It will depend on whether the employee is eligible for a retirement plan at work.

Suppose one makes $20K a year and puts $16,500 of that into a 401(k) plan with some kind of match. That can be pretty sweet.

 

[megacorp-firee]

Anyone else experience this type of situation or have any advice? Anything is appreciated ...

NO
after 37 years of marriage, I think you are what they euphemistically called 'screwed'
Hope your portfolio helps you out.

 

[Texas Proud]

It will depend on whether the employee is eligible for a retirement plan at work.

Suppose one makes $20K a year and puts $16,500 of that into a 401(k) plan with some kind of match. That can be pretty sweet.

That is if you can... at mega we had a max percent of IIRC 12%.... so with a $20K salary, that is not much... however, the match is sweet...


My current job allows 92%... so your thought would work... just have to find the right company...

 

[saxquiz]

So you work all day and she gets to stay home doing as she pleases and that makes you the bad guy? She should feel guilty for being at home while you're working. With no little kids to take care of it sounds like freeloading to me. People tell me that marriage is supposed to be a partnership.

 

[kyounge1956]

I knew I was the bad guy. Just needed help being reminded.

Perhaps it is unrealistic for her to make that type of money although the admins where I work do. Including my admin. What's wrong with testing the waters and at least seeing what is out there?

15 years ago I did have to talk her into being a SAHM. But far from resenting that, she has long since come to relish it. She volunteers as a lead childcare director with a major womens bible fellowship group. She is doing the things she wants...just like I'd hope to some day.

But I get it. I won't push on this. Maybe my index funds will surprise me.

I wonder if part of the reason your wife may not want to get a paying job is that she likes her volunteer position and prefers not to leave it? She may feel that the "waters" are just fine where she's at now. If that's the case, you have set yourself the task not only of convincing her to do something she (seemingly) doesn't want to do, but also to stop doing something she does want to do. I'm not married, so maybe it's a blind spot on my part, but I just don't see why she should be expected to leave work that she likes well enough to do it for free, and go through what would, given the current economic situation and the decade-plus gap in her resume, probably be a long, disagreeable and frustrating search, to find a paid (but not very much) position that she doesn't really want in the first place? If your positions were reversed, how would you feel about being asked to do that? Even if she does find such a job, will it make any difference to your retirement date? You said in your first post that you are 8 years from ER; then later in the thread, that you would be working until your youngest graduates from college, also 8 years. If you are going to be working for another 8 years anyway, what is accomplished by your wife going back to work?

One suggestion, if you are still going to try to convince her, I would suggest that you not refer to adding her whole paycheck to the nest egg, but making it possible for you to save more of your paycheck toward retirement. It won't be easy to convince her to go back to work in the first place, but IMO, it will be even harder if she feels that she is being put to work in order to meet a goal that is important mostly to you, rather than one that she feels is more of a common goal for the two of you. I don't know your specifics, but what would be a goal that can be spoken of in terms of "if you go back to work, then we can...." rather than "if you go back to work, then I can..."?

 

[WhoDaresWins]

Lots of good suggestions precede me. Possibly you could begin saving for ER by cutting back on a lot of non-essentials as others have already suggested, selling off some things,too, to build your retirement nest further. Explain to you wife what you want to do and get her on board with this effort. Maybe it will come to her on her own that she could contribute with some paid work, but I woudn't push this. I was a SAHM for 12 years, went back to work voluntarily when my son was 12 as I got bored with my life and wanted to do something to grow as a person on my own, and volunteer work a couple of days a week wasn't doing it for me at that period in my life. I had a hard time finding something in my field, so I took civil service tests and got hired by the state in an entirely new area from what I had previously done. I have been at my job 15 years now and have built my own pension plan. My job also provided the paid health insurance benefits for the family from the point I got hired. My DH died of a sudden heart attack almost 7 years ago so I was lucky to have something of my own creation to anchor me during this time, even though he left me with enough resources that I would never have had to work again if I had wanted. One never knows what life will throw at you, and it is a good feeling to be independent. Best of luck. You and she will work things out I am sure whatever is decided.

 

[samclem]

I agree with putting everything down on paper. But putting it down on paper and presenting it to her wil be less effective than if you work through the problem together--using real numbers. I wouldn't start with the investments, but with the desired post-retirement monthly budget. Then, apply your expected income stream to it and see what the gap is.

I agree that reducing overall spending is more likely to be successful (less stress on the marriage and better $$ return) than getting her into the workforce. If you cut spending, you'll be sharing the sacrifice. The spending cuts will be far more palatable if you both "see" the goal together (more time together--sooner) than if you try to impose these cuts. Cutting spending would have two goals: Allowing you to sock away more now, but more importantly, cutting your "expected spend rate" in ER. Obviously, each dollar you can cut your monthly spending in ER is about $50 less that you have to have in your nest egg to generate that dollar.

 

[ziggy29]

So you work all day and she gets to stay home doing as she pleases and that makes you the bad guy? She should feel guilty for being at home while you're working. With no little kids to take care of it sounds like freeloading to me. People tell me that marriage is supposed to be a partnership.

Maybe, depending on household dynamics and what the partners want. But for me, for quite a few years my wife wasn't working -- either staying home or going to school -- and we don't even have any kids. To be blunt, her earning power was relatively inconsequential relative to mine, and I liked an arrangement where I had almost none of the housework (except mowing the lawn and such) and she ran almost all the household errands. When you factor in higher taxes and other expenses of working, what she'd bring in was negligible relative to the feeling I got from being liberated from all that housework and errand-running.

It wasn't until this crappy "new economy" took hold that we had a wakeup call telling us we needed "redundancy" in terms of at least a small additional paycheck and health benefits. To be honest, if I weren't concerned about my job security, it wouldn't have bothered me to preserve the status quo since the status quo didn't come with roughly half of the household chores. This is why I said before that in the OP's case, I'd look at the wife getting job more as insurance against economic disaster in case of OP's job loss than in terms of accelerating FIRE.

I guess people can feel "cheated" if they want to, and if they want to "keep score," they can certainly find reasons to be highly resentful of a so-called "freeloader." But some of us prefer not to keep score. If that means some of us bear most of the responsibility, so be it -- but if I'm happy with her, that barely registers on my radar. And yes, the thought has occurred to me that if she continues to enjoy her job past the date I can FIRE, maybe I can get off the hamster wheel in a few years and between 72(t) on my retirement accounts and her health insurance benefits, we'd be fine. For those keeping score, it may be lopsided now but there is a chance it could even out in a few years. It's still early in the third quarter here.

 

[FUEGO]

Tell your DW you are interested in a sabbatical. Taking a year or two off to pursue some interests to which you have not had the time to devote during your hectic working career. Maybe see if she can help you with your dream. Perhaps discuss cutting expenses out of your budget to make ends meet while on your sabbatical.

 

[SarahW]

I'm glad I'm not married to some of you.

 

[lhamo]

Why not sit down and discuss with her what your JOINT goals are for a retirement together. Do you want to do a lot of traveling, have a vacation home, etc. Does she agree that it would be great for you to be able to RE so that you can enjoy these things together while you still have good health, etc. A few well-placed stories about people who faced unexpected illness or death at an early age that ruined similar plans might be helpful (if you want, you can use my dad as an example -- had planned to retire from a career at aerospace megacorp at 55, but was killed by a sudden heart attack at age 52, which also killed his pension (no survivor benefit before retirement). Try to make this about BOTH of you, and not just you, and you might find that she is more willing to make some changes now in order to reach a common goal sooner.

lhamo

 

[samclem]

A correction (bad math):

. . . Obviously, each one dollar you can cut your monthly spending in ER is about [-]$50[/-] $300 less that you have to have in your nest egg to generate that dollar.

So, reduce your monthly spending in retirement by $100 and you've reduced your required nest egg by $30,000 (and possibly much more than that if you include the effects of taxes)

 

[John Galt III]

Muir,

Jumping in here, although I haven't read all the preceding posts. I feel your pain. You're in a bad situation. Your spouse ( I'm projecting from my own experience) thinks you "do not love her" if you resent the fact the she loafs while you slave. Your minister or rabbi will hand you a pamphlet entitled "the Gift of Inadequacy" and send you on your way ( you are the inadequate one, not the wife) if you go to him for advice.

She will not feel any pity or empathy for you. The only way out is to just quit working, or better yet, get laid off or just get fired, and not get another job. When the bills pile up, and HER lifestyle suffers, she will think about going back to work.

Caveat : if you end up making the little princess mad or sad, you risk losing 50 to 60 percent of all the assets YOU have earned in a miserable self-flagellating way for year after miserable year, if she files for divorce. Plus enormous child support payments.

You've got to make her feel the pain too, but don't make it look like you are doing it on purpose.

 

[bbbamI]

Egads.

 

[clifp]

Wow talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Well one can't complain about not getting a diverse mix of suggestions.

 

[JustNtime]

Obviously, following John's advice would be idiotic. Why NOT just sell/mortgage everything you have, max the credit cards, move the money off-shore, and disappear to a tropical paradise?

On a more serious note, why NOT let her enjoy her 'ER' and give yourself a serious attitude adjustment to do your best to enjoy it too. Put some serious constraints on pre-ER spending, use a sharper pencil with your ER spending plan, and see if you can all get on the same page. Have your son work to save/pay some of his college expenses (when he's old enough)... He'll appreciate it more if he pays part anyway.
I retired when my youngest was just starting college and it really wasn't that bad a hit each year(each child was responsible for their personal expenses at a minimum). Originally, I was going to wait until they all graduated, but the more I looked at my spreadsheets and projections -- the more I saw it was possible to bail early... Good Luck!

 

[MuirWannabe]

Thanks everyone. I think it boils down to just slowly keep trying to make ER a shared goal for both of us. If it happens it will only happen through communication. If it's honestly a shared goal then things like going back to work or LBYM will more naturally fall back into place.

It requires great patience on my part. Something I often lack and look forward to learning and practicing more in my post ER years. My sense of urgency is not hers on this goal. But perhaps in time it can develop that way.

Your thoughts have been helpful. Some have stung. Some have been downright shocking. Some have been very practical and encouraging.

It's pretty cool to be able to get this type of feedback. I like this little forum of ours.

MuirW

 

[Lusitan]

Assuming you've answered the whole can-we-leave-our-youngest-home-for-a-couple-hours-in-the-afternoon thing ...

Should your wife look for other work now that the job of raising the kids during the day is over? Absolutely, she should. Unless of course the "deal" was that she would work at raising the kids and then ER while you worked for another 20 years. I know that "raising" kids doesn't stop when they hit high school, but the reality is that the day-to-day requirements of being a stay-at-home parent are long-ended by that point. You and her will continue to "raise" your kids through high school, but you don't need to be home during the work day for that.

As to whether she actually could find a job, and how much she'd make, she won't know until she looks. Thinking that she won't find anything isn't an excuse to avoid looking for something. I suspect you'd be happy if she tried but couldn't find a job, and perhaps she would be more successful in a year or two if things improve.

The key point I see is that you both had an agreement whereby you'd both be working -- you worked for income, she worked at home to raise the kids. Now that the kids are all (or almost) in high school or older, her "job" has essentially been phased out and it's time for her to find another job to continue the equitable arrangement of both working and contributing toward the marriage. This would be no different than if you lost your job because your company moved overseas -- you'd be expected to find a new job.

You should not fault her in any way for whatever income she earns, even if she only earns very little and much less than you think she can. She's been out of the paid-workforce for a while and will not have as much earning capacity as someone who has been working for money the whole time. The point is that she should be making the effort to work at some job on a full-time basis, and unless you have another baby, it ain't going to be raising children.

 

[JustNtime]

Wannabee, NO sympathy for self-inflicted wounds. You talked her into ER as a SAHM and now are regretting it. I'm sure, if you put your mind to it, you might be able to convince her to come out of retirement for semi-retirement or even full-time work. But think first. Who takes off when your teenager is sick, has a day or half day off. What about the summer and school vacation periods? Having a new job and taking off to care for the sick, etc. is a good way to lose a new job. OR Fair is fair 50-50 split of these responsibilities. Is a latch-key teen really a good idea? How will he react to the 'sudden' abandonment? Are you going to pick up some household duties? Consider carefully, because when you both retire, there will be a tendancy to keep the status quo division of household chores. A short term gain for a long term commitment... At this point you probably feel you shot yourself in the foot originally. My suggestion is to be careful not to shoot the other one and keep the status quo for the high school years. With any luck - you can retire - have your son live at home while going to college - giving you a built in house-sitter for when you want to travel. Good luck...

 

[toofrugalformycat]

Thanks everyone. I think it boils down to just slowly keep trying to make ER a shared goal for both of us. If it happens it will only happen through communication. If it's honestly a shared goal then things like going back to work or LBYM will more naturally fall back into place.

It requires great patience on my part. Something I often lack and look forward to learning and practicing more in my post ER years. My sense of urgency is not hers on this goal. But perhaps in time it can develop that way.

Your thoughts have been helpful. Some have stung. Some have been downright shocking. Some have been very practical and encouraging.

It's pretty cool to be able to get this type of feedback. I like this little forum of ours.

MuirW

Wow, I want to be like you when (if) I grow up.
But one other issue sprang to mind. DH and I were DINKS with similar jobs and incomes, quite different from you. But one recurring theme during our 20-odd years of working lives was "I wish we had a wife". Just be aware that if it turns out your wife goes to full-time work, you will have to engage in a whole new set of negotiations on how the housework gets done. I remember fantasizing that if I had a "wife" I could actually eat lunch on my lunch hour instead of running errands that had to be done during working hours. I could come home to a clean(er) house and dinner, and not have to do grocery shopping, cooking and cleaning on the evenings and weekends. I wouldn't have to take precious leave to be home to meet a repairman. In our case, I'm happy with the decision we made because it turned out well (so far) but it did take considerable "communication" with DH for him to understand that just because he's male, didn't excuse him from doing a fair portion of the work at home. What is fair is open to interpretation and discussion, but trust me, it's likely that the amount of housework you already do (if any) must go up if your wife spends 40+ hours a week working outside the home.
But if you communicate and share the same goals, it'll work out.

 

[LOL!]

Maids are cheap. Get one or two.

 

[Moemg]

In this economy I think part time jobs are easier to find . That would ease her into the workplace yet still give her some freedom .