life is good....for her

[MuirWannabe]

I'm still 8 years away from ER at 55. But I'm getting very focused on this goal and the savings needed to achieve it. I've spoken with DW and she understands my goal but is not openly as supportive as I'd like. I do feel as though it is my goal and not hers (ours).

Years ago when our kids were born I had to convince her to quit working. She did so but now I fear I've created another problem. She loves not working and doing the things she enjoys. But our two daughters are now in college and my son is in 8th grade. The stay at home mom thing is not as critical at this point.

Bottom line. I want her to go back to work. We could sock her entire paycheck into our savings thus greatly helping the ER goal. I guess she may not be as motivated because her ER already began years ago. She seems less motivated to LBYM as well.

I know this is a communication thing and I've got to keep trying to make this a shared goal between us. Or else I'm doomed to megacorp well beyond 8 more years.

Anyone else experience this type of situation or have any advice? Anything is appreciated although I'm glad Dr. Phil is not on this forum

 

[JustNtime]

I'm still 8 years away from ER at 55. But I'm getting very focused on this goal and the savings needed to achieve it. I've spoken with DW and she understands my goal but is not openly as supportive as I'd like. I do feel as though it is my goal and not hers (ours).

Years ago when our kids were born I had to convince her to quit working. She did so but now I fear I've created another problem. She loves not working and doing the things she enjoys. But our two daughters are now in college and my son is in 8th grade. The stay at home mom thing is not as critical at this point.

Bottom line. I want her to go back to work. We could sock her entire paycheck into our savings thus greatly helping the ER goal. I guess she may not be as motivated because her ER already began years ago. She seems less motivated to LBYM as well.

I know this is a communication thing and I've got to keep trying to make this a shared goal between us. Or else I'm doomed to megacorp well beyond 8 more years.

Anyone else experience this type of situation or have any advice? Anything is appreciated although I'm glad Dr. Phil is not on this forum

Tread softly friend...

So let me get this straight, you want your spouse to end her highly successful ER and go back to the meaningless grind of a wage earner -- JUST so you can escape your servitude a little sooner? What's next, are you going to ask her to curb her spending or even be frugal? LBYM??!! OH, the humanity?!!

Well, after 25yrs in the USAF with DW faithfully performing the duties of military spouse and SAHM for 3+me; I was able to ER at 48. The last kid was just starting college, middle just finishing, and the first born graduated, employed, and flown the coop. YES, I could have ER'd sooner, if she had obtain employment in those last few yrs. I thought about it, but tried not to mention it... She and the rest of the inlaws were the ones most concerned about my being able to retire the military and not seeking transition to a civilian job. Our situation was unique, none of us knew anyone retiring at such an early age OR any military retiree that didn't at least try to get a civilian job. The military transition folks just shaked their heads, said it couldn't be done, and gave me about 6months to change my mind or go broke. They tried to keep me away from the other retirees, fearing whatevery delusions I was suffering from might be contagious... After 7+ years, many older retirees continue to tell me I'm too young to be retired. Of course, when I suggest to my DW that 'WE' are retired -- she usually reminds me she retaines unpaid duties as chief cook, cleaner, and bottle washer in 'MY' retirement.

Although, suggesting a part time job for her while your son is in school (and she has all that 'free' time), sounds like a really profitable idea to meeting your ER goals; be prepared for some discussion on rolls & responsibilities leading to places few choose to willingly go. You do know that you could retire sooner, if you were willing to take on a part time job after you retire to help fill in all your 'free' time.

 

[ziggy29]

This is a very touchy subject that has the potential to blow up. Tread very carefully.

I can understand why you feel as you do -- perhaps being a mom isn't the full-time job it used to be -- and I was in this situation when my wife wasn't working for a while, too. (But in our case there were no kidlets in the picture.)

I think you have it right in wanting to get her on board with your desire to pull the plug on the corporate crap before suggesting she get a job, but still -- "my work sucks, honey, so I want you to endure it too so I can get out sooner" might not be a good sell. Suggesting you'd have more years of the rest of your life to share with her might be a better place to start (assuming she likes having you around).

Having said all that, if there's room for compromise I'd think a part time job for a few hours a week while your 8th grader is in school might be a place to start, and then let things play out for a while from there.

 

[W2R]

Maybe she is not confident that she could find a decent job, given the severe unemployment resulting from this recession and given that she apparently has not worked for many (20+?) years.

Another thing to consider is that your youngest is in 8th grade, which I presume would be 13 years old or so. I know that in one state in which I lived, it was illegal to leave kids at home alone until they were 14. So, that might be on her mind as well. It's hardly worth working at a minimum wage job if one has to pay for child care. Minimum wage might be all the salary that she could command right now, until she has built up her resume again.

Perhaps working would be advantageous to her future Social Security situation, and possibly that could motivate her.

 

[MuirWannabe]

Our 8th grader is 14. I'm pretty sure there is no law aginst him being at home alone for an hour or two in the afternoon. I'll probably not win on this but it won't be because the law is on her side.

DW is college educated with past experience in IT. She would never want to get back into the IT field. But I would think she could find a job as an admin assistant, office manager, etc to bring home $40-50K a year. Over 8 years that is a lot more for our nest egg.

I appreciate the tread carefully advice. It is a touchy subject under our roof already. Maybe I am the bad guy here. That's usually the way it ends up with disagreements with the DW. I am lucky to have her and I am typcially the one in the wrong.

But dang I want to ER. Ziggy is right about how to try to sell this. It can't be 'I hate work so much so you should go back to work'.

 

[FinanceDude]

Our 8th grader is 14. I'm pretty sure there is no law aginst him being at home alone for an hour or two in the afternoon. I'll probably not win on this but it won't be because the law is on her side.

DW is college educated with past experience in IT. She would never want to get back into the IT field. But I would think she could find a job as an admin assistant, office manager, etc to bring home $40-50K a year. Over 8 years that is a lot more for our nest egg.

I appreciate the tread carefully advice. It is a touchy subject under our roof already. Maybe I am the bad guy here. That's usually the way it ends up with disagreements with the DW. I am lucky to have her and I am typcially the one in the wrong.

But dang I want to ER. Ziggy is right about how to try to sell this. It can't be 'I hate work so much so you should go back to work'.

What does SHE like to DO? Does she do volunteer work and things like that? A lady I know went back to work as the executive director for the non-profit she did a lot of volunteer work for. She makes low 40's with some decent benefits, and more importantly, LOVES her work.

If you get resistance, the LAST thing I would do is lay abunch of guilt on her. Being a SAHM is not as easy as it looks on paper.........

 

[JustNtime]

Perhaps working would be advantageous to her future Social Security situation, and possibly that could motivate her.

Hmm... A novel approach to bringing the subject up. Use her SSN to request one of those report of benefits from SSA. When it comes, let her chew on it awhile, then helpfully point out she doesn't have any disability coverage and doesn't even have enough credits to get retirement payments(without you). Gee, you know a part time job could really help YOU out... (OH if only I could have kept a straight face...)

I would then like to patent this approach and then study results among blonds, brunettes, and red heads to see what kind of correlation is possible. OF course, with red heads some kind of bodily injury insurance/waivers might be required.

 

[W2R]

DW is college educated with past experience in IT. She would never want to get back into the IT field. But I would think she could find a job as an admin assistant, office manager, etc to bring home $40-50K a year.

OK, I have identified the problem.

Have you told her that you think she could walk right into a job as an administrative assistant or office manager, paying $50K/year, immediately after a 20+ year gap in her resume and being seriously overqualified like that and with no experience in these jobs, in the middle of a huge nationwide crisis in unemployment?

I think a reality check is in order, here. I wouldn't want to go back to work either, if I were put into a situation where nothing short of a miracle on the level of the loaves and fishes would be considered as a successful outcome of a job hunt.

 

[FIREd]

The problem with this type of threads is that we don't know about the spouse's point of view. So it's impossible for me to give you any worthy advice and I won't even try.

But, this was my first impression when I read your post:

It seems like you "had to convince" her to quit working. That says she didn't really want to in the first place. She may feel like she has sacrificed her career for you and the kids and she may not take too kindly to the fact that you are now asking her to re-enter the workforce (at the worse possible time for someone who has been out of work for years) so that you can retire a few years earlier. She might see it as having to sacrifice herself for, yet again, something that YOU want since she is not on-board with the whole FIRE/LBYM thing.

 

[W2R]

I would then like to patent this approach and then study results among blonds, brunettes, and red heads to see what kind of correlation is possible. OF course, with red heads some kind of bodily injury insurance/waivers might be required.

OK, I admit that before my hair turned white/grey I was a brunette with a very calm disposition...

 

[freebird5825]

Well, I'm going to stand up and be a target for the rotten tomatoes.

In a rare case of blatant modern female opinionation...here goes...

My mother w*rked with 5 kids (I was last). She was born in 1927.

I w*rked with no kids. I was born in 1958.

Any questions ?

 

[ziggy29]

But I would think she could find a job as an admin assistant, office manager, etc to bring home $40-50K a year.

I think this might be wishful thinking, particularly in this economy, with such a long gap in the resume. I doubt too many places are paying $20-25 per hour (which is what $40-50K would be with a 2000 hour work year) for these kinds of jobs today, even with recent relevant work experience.

If she's amenable to it, *perhaps* she could work a part-time schedule (again, probably while the kids are in school) in an office environment like this, and maybe at some point in the future, if she's ready for a full-time position and she's good at what she's doing, she could then look for a full-time position in that field (with current experience) or even put herself into position to get full time hours (and maybe even a promotion, who knows) where she currently was.

Unless she suddenly gets enthusiastic about your FIRE goal, I think it would likely be a mistake to suggest anything more than part-time at first. It could always grow from there in the future, circumstances permitting.

 

[bbbamI]

You've talked to her, but I suggest you put it on paper...in black and white. Discuss the financial spreadsheets and perhaps she can understand what it will take for you to FIRE. Compromises can be made...

That's the only way I could convince DH that he needed to ease up on his spending. There was no good/bad guy. The spreadsheet spoke for itself.

 

[MuirWannabe]

I knew I was the bad guy. Just needed help being reminded.

Perhaps it is unrealistic for her to make that type of money although the admins where I work do. Including my admin. What's wrong with testing the waters and at least seeing what is out there?

15 years ago I did have to talk her into being a SAHM. But far from resenting that, she has long since come to relish it. She volunteers as a lead childcare director with a major womens bible fellowship group. She is doing the things she wants...just like I'd hope to some day.

But I get it. I won't push on this. Maybe my index funds will surprise me.

 

[ziggy29]

I knew I was the bad guy. Just needed help being reminded.

No, I don't think there's a "bad guy" here; I just think that a suggestion that she go "all in" to the workforce might be a little dicey given so many years out of it and the current job market. Like you, my wife wasn't working for quite a few years and doing things she enjoyed while I was stuck in the old grind. Yes, there is the potential for unhealthy resentment there, especially as the burden of her "mom duties" decreases over time and yours does not.

That is, of course, what communication is for. Does she understand how much you want out and that a second income could make that happen years sooner? Does she understand that you'd rather have more of the rest of your life free from that burden to spend with her and in other ways you see fit?

Part of the reason my wife decided to start looking for work again last year is because she knows I'd love to be able to do something else with my life eventually. (The other part of it was as "insurance" in case I got laid off into this craptastic economy.) She misses some of the things she used to do during the day, such as her biweekly 10 AM Bible study with the ladies from church. (Fortunately here, her lunch schedule coincides with the time that group goes out to lunch, so she can still be at least a part of it still.) But at some point, she just felt ready to get back into the water.

 

[JustNtime]

Our 8th grader is 14. I'm pretty sure there is no law aginst him being at home alone for an hour or two in the afternoon. I'll probably not win on this but it won't be because the law is on her side.

DW is college educated with past experience in IT. She would never want to get back into the IT field. But I would think she could find a job as an admin assistant, office manager, etc to bring home $40-50K a year. Over 8 years that is a lot more for our nest egg.

I appreciate the tread carefully advice. It is a touchy subject under our roof already. Maybe I am the bad guy here. That's usually the way it ends up with disagreements with the DW. I am lucky to have her and I am typcially the one in the wrong.

But dang I want to ER. Ziggy is right about how to try to sell this. It can't be 'I hate work so much so you should go back to work'.

Hmm... I haven't met too many entry level admin types bringing home that kind of dough around here. NOT to mention required things like typing skills, steno, etc... I'm afraid her 'stay at home' experience doesn't translate well on the job market. Further her age with potential retirement in few years, doesn't exactly scream 'pick me - pick me' either. I suspect her prospects are much more modest than you're hoping for in this economy.

If it helps any to get over the pain of it all, consider after increased taxes, cost of upkeep of 'professional' wardrobe, hair styling, transportation, child care, maid service or whatever other costs are involved in transitioning you to a 2 income family -- how much can really be left to feather your retirement nest... Maybe 20k, if you're real lucky. More like 10k or less, if not... Maybe a year or two earlier retirement at best at the added cost of wear/tear on your marriage/family. Perhaps it just isn't worth it. (OR Just "DON'T WORRY -- BE HAPPY" instead). Easier for me to say now - than when I felt the weight of the world on my shoulders... Good luck.

P.S. Both DW and I had working mothers, with the military moving us every 2-3 yrs we chose a more traditional approach, partly from necessity. Should be interesting to see which our children choose --- if they ever marry.

 

[W2R]

Perhaps it is unrealistic for her to make that type of money although the admins where I work do. Including my admin.

Did your admin just get hired last week, with absolutely zero experience as an admin and after a 20+ year gap in her resume and without being the sister-in-law of the boss or carrying on with him? Really? Impressive and I have never seen that happen even once, ever.

Yes, there are admins where I work that earn that much. These admins are generally well trained with 20-30 years of experience as an admin.

What's wrong with testing the waters and at least seeing what is out there?

What's wrong with unrealistic expectations, you ask? That goes way beyond the scope of this thread.

If she finds a job paying a penny over minimum wage, I think you would do her a disservice to be any less than thrilled and congratulatory.

 

[FIREd]

I knew I was the bad guy. Just needed help being reminded.

Is that what you say when you want to begin an argument with your wife? It would be a sure thing for mine to blow her top off...

Like Ziggy said, there is no bad guy here. You guys need to talk and figure out what each one of you wants. There might be hurt feelings, resentment, and misunderstandings on both sides and unless you communicate better, it's going to fester.

 

[Texas Proud]

I knew I was the bad guy. Just needed help being reminded.

Perhaps it is unrealistic for her to make that type of money although the admins where I work do. Including my admin. What's wrong with testing the waters and at least seeing what is out there?

15 years ago I did have to talk her into being a SAHM. But far from resenting that, she has long since come to relish it. She volunteers as a lead childcare director with a major womens bible fellowship group. She is doing the things she wants...just like I'd hope to some day.

But I get it. I won't push on this. Maybe my index funds will surprise me.

You must work at mega corp.... they pay better... and admin in a small company makes $25k... a good one maybe $30k.... also, they want experience at doing that work... your wife has none (from what I can tell)...

I am not saying she is not smart or could not do the job.... but I can say that if two candidates presented themselves and one had experience against your wife, they win...


Another piece of info against you is that my sister lost her job a few months ago... she is in IT... she is in her mid 50s and said she will probably not be able to find another job as her skills have 'deteriorated'... even though she was working for 20 years.... they would give her the stuff nobody else wanted to do, so she did not keep up with the 'newer' languages etc...


Finally.... trying to get a wife to stop (or slow) spending is a tough road... I know when I mention this to my wife, she says she never buys anything... and what do I want, her not to have underwear And I am talking a nice budget IMO... the problem is all the small things add up over the month which she just does not seem to see... and when I bring it up.... I am the problem... because I don't want to spend money...


OPPS.... sorry, one more thing.... how much do YOU make? Making your wife work 4 or 5 years so you can work 1 less is not going to go over well... and if she can only make in the low $20s... that might be the case... remember... her income is on top of yours for tax purposes.. so the take home is not as much....

 

[ziggy29]

OPPS.... sorry, one more thing.... how much do YOU make? Making your wife work 4 or 5 years so you can work 1 less is not going to go over well... and if she can only make in the low $20s... that might be the case... remember... her income is on top of yours for tax purposes.. so the take home is not as much....

I don't know how secure the OP's job is, but to me the most important thing might be that if he were laid off while she wasn't working, they might have to tap into savings and investments and add several years to the final FIRE date. In other words, instead of being 8 years away, such an event could push it back to (say) 10-12 years away without any other income or source of health insurance.

Avoiding that with a second paycheck and a redundant set of benefits might be more important than shaving a year or two off the current FIRE date if all goes well.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the primary reasons my wife started working again earlier this year was as a little extra security in case I got laid off and lost my paycheck and health insurance. It certainly wasn't for the pay. And that she might wind up with a small pension out of it if she sticks it out for a few years is gravy.

 

[Sue J]

I'm in a situation similar to your wife. I didn't work for 22 years while I was a SAHM. It worked very well for all of us. I loved it, DH liked me being home with the kids and getting everything done so that he had his weekends free. When we look back we all agree (even the kids) that me not working was the right thing to do for our family.

Three years ago I started a very minimal part time job. It was specifically to complete my Social Security credits since when I left to raise a family I had only 33 credits and you need to have 40. I've continued this job because I still enjoy it and the little bit of money is nice, all going toward savings. We live on about 3/4 of my DH's take home pay so we live very LBYM.

Like your wife I was out of the workforce for a large block of time. I knew this would be an issue if I ever returned to work but I didn't realize how big of an impact this would be. Right now I'm not looking for anything else as I started working for H&R Block about a year ago and have been taking additional classes for the tax season. But last year I did look for a larger part time job and it was very discouraging. Our area is hit hard by the recession. Unemployment is high around here so anything that I'd apply for had plenty of younger candidates with relevant and recent experience. I'm very competent, detailed, a fast learner and a good worker, but my relevant experience is from the [SIZE=-1]previous[/SIZE] century.

So for now I'm sticking with my little part time job that pays well hourly (just not a lot of hours) and continuing with the tax prep education and seasonal work. It may not be the ultimate career but these are the jobs I HAVE vs the job I don't have yet.

One difference to your situation is that I am very motivated to LBYM. I have always been the home economist and handled all the money, monthly budget and finances. DH was always good at earning it and felt like he should be free to spend it. Then a few years ago we looked at upcoming retirement and I showed him how by cutting back on extras and paying off debt he would be able to retire in 2013 (if his job holds out that long). This got him very motivated to cut back on extras and concentrate on the goal.

Maybe she would be willing to cut back on spending rather than get a part time job. I know that worked for me when my kids were young.

Do you track spending? We found it very helpful to keep track of every expense for a few months just to see where it's all going. I don't see shopping as entertainment. I shop when we need something and the fun for me is shopping efficiently and getting a good deal on something. Then the other part of the fun is using it well at home. My own version of sport. Yes, I realize I'm different than many people.

 

[toofrugalformycat]

You've talked to her, but I suggest you put it on paper...in black and white. Discuss the financial spreadsheets and perhaps she can understand what it will take for you to FIRE. Compromises can be made...

I second this emotion. I found it much easier to cut back even more on spending once I saw the model DH showed me. A little cut in ongoing monthly spending forever, makes as big a difference as a few more hundred thousand dollars, at least in our situation.
If she was in IT (like me) she might also be into seeing a model and dealing with numbers.
I also wonder if you have an adequate model yourself of how much sooner you could retire if she managed to get a job with a realistic salary, minus the additional taxes you'd pay and expenses you'd incur. You may find that cutting back on monthly expenses by even a little, on a permanent basis, would more than make up for the money she would make in the few years before your ER. You should both have access to a realistic model of the tradeoff - lower expenses or additional job.
BTW my parent's marriage broke up, partly because of this very issue and their inability to communicate with each other about it.

 

[Texas Proud]

I don't know how secure the OP's job is, but to me the most important thing might be that if he were laid off while she wasn't working, they might have to tap into savings and investments and add several years to the final FIRE date. In other words, instead of being 8 years away, such an event could push it back to (say) 10-12 years away without any other income or source of health insurance.

Avoiding that with a second paycheck and a redundant set of benefits might be more important than shaving a year or two off the current FIRE date if all goes well.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the primary reasons my wife started working again earlier this year was as a little extra security in case I got laid off and lost my paycheck and health insurance. It certainly wasn't for the pay. And that she might wind up with a small pension out of it if she sticks it out for a few years is gravy.

I don't disagree with your post... I was just trying to show that trying to talk a wife that has not worked for 20 years into going back to work is not as easy as it might sound... even with the extra security it will bring...

 

[ziggy29]

I don't disagree with your post... I was just trying to show that trying to talk a wife that has not worked for 20 years into going back to work is not as easy as it might sound... even with the extra security it will bring...

Right. But that's not a good reason to not even try to re-enter the work force. It is a good reason to set expectations properly, especially in this economy. Good, decent-paying full time work will be hard to find now. But if you can start small and prove yourself once in the door, it can lead to something more. Based on what I'm hearing (from one side), that's how I think it might best be played.

 

[LOL!]

...
DW is college educated with past experience in IT. She would never want to get back into the IT field. But I would think she could find a job as an admin assistant, office manager, etc to bring home $40-50K a year. Over 8 years that is a lot more for our nest egg.

In my neck of the woods, an admin assist or office manager would probably start at about $15K a year for a 40 hour week. I think that's about the minimum wage nowadays.