"Navy standard workweek"

[Nords]

Google that phrase and get your eyes opened.

I spent 24 years carrying around a green ID card and I've been retired for over five years, but I'm still learning new concepts. I stumbled over this phrase in the Naval Institute's "Proceedings" magazine, and my first reaction was "I never knew that" followed immediately by "Of course BUPERS has defined a standard workweek!" Maybe this nugget should be filed under "Things I really didn't care to know":

"Both officer and enlisted workload, by definition are based upon a standard of individual work referred to as the Navy standard workweek. This work is further refined to describe the minimum skill level required to satisfy the task, the minimum necessary pay grade or experience level and finally the minimum quantity of personnel required to fulfill these duties while at sea. [...] The Navy Manpower Analysis Center (NAVMAC) reviews the ROC/POE documents and unit configuration, collects and analyzes data, and uses algorithmic modeling which applies to various pay grade distribution tables and manpower staffing standards to determine workload which is expressed in terms of 'man hours.' For enlisted requirements, NAVMAC applies the CNO-directed net of 70 hours of productive time per week. However, for officer requirements this algorithmic model and application of a standard workweek consisting of 70 hours is not applied."

Of course I've known this for years and personally verified it many times:
"There currently exists no formalized and approved process for the development of officer specific manpower requirements. Pieces of the process are evident in the formulation of pay grade specific data and definitions. However, there is no concrete evidence that a system exists on which to base the officer manpower requirement."

"SHIP’S OFFICER STAFFING GUIDE"

I'm thinking that I've missed out on thousands of hours of overtime. Do you vets from the other services have to put up with this crap?

 

[Gumby]

Who knew? I thought it was 168 hours (at least while underway)

 

[tightasadrum]

I just always assumed that it was "at the pleasure of" the CO, since my workload seemed to change with the changing of the guard.

 

[FinallyRetired]

I'm thinking that I've missed out on thousands of hours of overtime. Do you vets from the other services have to put up with this crap?

Only 70 hours a week? When I was in SAC our timeline ended at 16 hours per day. At that point we could check into a military facility and get a bunk and GI chow for the next 16 hour timeline. We didn't do the 16 hour max every time, but it was very pleasant to know that SAC expected us to go 16 hours per day during our work week. During our days off we all disconnected our phones just in case the CO got a wild hair up his ...

But today the Air Force, in all its wisdom, does things much better. They track work online to see how hard the troops are working. According to this link,

"Air Force leaders wanted to know the causes of long hours and the kinds of additional duties that workers perform on overtime, Miller said. For example, a network manager at a small base might also be required to do extra custodial and building maintenance chores. "

Air Force tracks work online

Of course, these leaders would not be expected to actually know why the guys on the flight line and the missile holes are working overtime. To do that, they may have to put in some overtime themselves, so they do it online so they can get back to the [-]golf course[/-] office.

 

[Milton]

When I was in the navy there was a maximum duty limit for engineering watchkeepers but not for bridge watchkeepers. Of course the engineers, not being commissioned, had a much better 'trade union'.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Nords,

You are obsessing. You are retired, remember?

 

[Nords]

You are obsessing. You are retired, remember?

Just looking out for the next generation. Our kid seems to think this is the family business.

Can't help feeling a little paranoid about all the bullets that whizzed by my head...

 

[FinallyRetired]

Just looking out for the next generation. Our kid seems to think this is the family business.

Since it's for the younger generation, they should understand that one of the rights of us [-]old geezers[/-] retired military is to selectively remember and accentuate the worst that we went through in the military, and ignore the good times.

 

[LeBlanc]

There's no such thing as tracking work hours/time in the Air Force, at least not in the aircraft maintenance business. Granted I'm on a remote assignment I work no less than 84hrs per week. Current Air Force Instruction (AFI) 21-101 states "during normal operations, maintenance personnel will be scheduled for duty based on a goal of a 40-hour work week." Then further states "do not schedule personnel for more than 12 hours of continuous duty time....limit up to a maximum of 16 hours" Everything is waiverable.

 

[OAG]

In my "old" Army we "work until the mission is done". "You just keep working, the CO will come by sometime and tell us when the mission is done". If the CO was well educated or a General Officer they used the term "accomplished" instead of "done".

 

[USK Coastie]

USCG, you gotta go out on the call. You're done when you're back at base, everything else is variable . Many 24 hour duty days ran 36 hours plus, working a SAR. Duty is usually 1 in 3 days, but a lot of the time it was port and starboard due to short staff.
I understand that CG HQ now limits SAR boat assignments to 8 yrs total in 20 due to the battering the human body takes on the SAR Boats.

 

[deserat]

24X7 - as I told my civilian friends - when I'm on military time, if I get told to be somewhere at 0200 - I better be there in uniform, looking sharp with a smile on my face - very different concept than my civilian job - I'm exempt, but they still pay me an 'hourly' figure for 40 hours a week - I get to donate hours, if I want, beyond that.

When I do my Reserve weekends now, it's a blur - doesn't help that I'm the commander and they work even more than everyone else (leaving paperwork in the commander's inbox on Sunday at 1830....they had all weekend, but I didn't....yeah, gotta love it). I feel hungover on Monday and I'm supposed to hit the ground running for the civilian side - man, I can't wait to retire!

 

[Milton]

There's no such thing as tracking work hours/time in the Air Force.

I am confident that such records are strictly kept regarding aircrew's flight time. But feel free to correct me.

 

[LeBlanc]

I am confident that such records are strictly kept regarding aircrew's flight time. But feel free to correct me.

I 100% agree that flight crew hours are tracked to the hour, but we were talking about work.

 

[Nords]

I am confident that such records are strictly kept regarding aircrew's flight time. But feel free to correct me.

I interpreted LeBlanc's comment as an assessment of the competence (or lack thereof) of whoever's in charge of figuring out the USAF's billets & manpower structure.

I'd been in the Navy for over a decade before I learned the sacred secrets of manipulating the manpower system, and what a load of crap that was. I don't have a very high opinion of my former service's manpower staff, and I'm not sure that I'd hold the AF in much higher regard.

Ironically, given our interservice rivalry, I suspect that the Army has figured out exactly how many soldiers they need to do things.

 

[Urchina]

I understand that CG HQ now limits SAR boat assignments to 8 yrs total in 20 due to the battering the human body takes on the SAR Boats.

No kidding, the first time I saw footage of the CG boats that roll over and right themselves in heavy seas, I realized that "extra hazardous duty" could be had right off the Columbia Bar. Not to knock the sacrifice and work of the other armed forces (I've got a couple of Marine cousins) but man, those SAR missions look intense.

 

[Milton]

I 100% agree that flight crew hours are tracked to the hour, but we were talking about work.

Competent and mature aircrew and groundcrew are invariably respectful and appreciative of each other's labours. The above catty remark does you no credit.

 

[Rustic23]

Aircrew flight time is tracked. Well it use to be and I assume it still is. However, with regards to the work day, it is usually up to a squadron scheduler to know when an aircrew lands and schedule his next take off. For the most part we tracked it ourselves. We knew the rules on crew rest and it was up to us to say if we were in violation. However, while 12 hours of crew rest is the norm, it says nothing about how long they can keep you in the squadron after you land. I have seen 8 hr missions, 12 if you include brief and debrief, then 24 hours or so of additional duties before you get to go to bed.

 

[deserat]

What Rustic23 said - I spoke with my pilot buds and if they need you to fly a lot, you are going to fly a lot.....my dad would tell me hair-raising stories about long cross countries...really long ones around the world. Add on the 'additional duties' and it goes beyond..bottom line: all of the services expect 24X7 and depending on the task at hand it can truly be that. I juggle between the two right now and the concepts of 'manpower' and 'resource management' are worlds apart based on the 'going-in' positions. I see the benefit to both based on the missions....but I'm much more tired when doing my military duty - there's an edge to it that I don't have in my civilian job. Hard to explain.

 

[Nords]

...but I'm much more tired when doing my military duty - there's an edge to it that I don't have in my civilian job. Hard to explain.

Overstimulation! I always had a terrible time settling down on the first underway day. Ambient pressure changes, pitch & roll, PA system announcements, lots of different background noises, different smells, different diet, and a much smaller volume in which to sleep. There was also the constant thrill of 110+ people re-establishing proficiency on ship-integrity skills that they [-]thought they knew[/-] hadn't practiced for a while.

After about 36 hours the CO2 levels would be a lot higher, the O2 partial pressure would be a lot lower, and a couple of drill sets would have worn the edge off everyone. Sleeping wasn't much of a problem after that...

 

[trixs]

I have actually never tracked the hours I put in for the Air Force. My schedule is not fixed and fluctuates all the time - especially when deployed. When I think about it one flight can easily go over 20 hours: 4 hours prior + 14 hour flight + 2 or so hours debrief time. Granted after that sortie is complete you generally have around 36 hours off until the next flight.

 

[TonyBear]

HAH! Sorry the whole concept of a standard workweek is bewildering. Apparantly they never took in to consult those of us on the sub side of the house.

 

[randyman65]

"After about 36 hours the CO2 levels would be a lot higher, the O2 partial pressure would be a lot lower, and a couple of drill sets would have worn the edge off everyone. Sleeping wasn't much of a problem after that..."

I don't recall more than one or two days of not being able to sleep underway. Of course, being underway 300 days a year, port and starboard watch rotation, weekly ops when we had to come in at midnight for reactor startup, and stay til midnight on Friday for shutdown and maintainance may have had something to do with that. Of course, there's always the joy that is ORSE workup. Six hours on watch running drills, six hours after watch as part of the emergency response team, and six hours before watch to as part the team conducting drills.

I think that in my eight years in the Navy, I worked an average of 90 hours per week. Of course, on the boat, your manpower is limited not only by how many sailors you get, but how many racks you have for them.

 

[lets-retire]

When we worked a normal "8" hour shift we averaged 42 hours in a week when I was in the AF. This did not include any scheduled training, because it was rather sporadic some months we'd have 2-4 hours every week others every other week, yearly four month deployments (where we worked an average of about 100 per week), or the "12" hours shifts we seemed to go into every couple months.