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Old 08-13-2014, 03:39 AM   #21
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I think you would be well advised to accept that you made a mistake and immediately seek alternative employment. Sticking around for another six months, in the hope that things may somehow become better due to factors entirely outside of your control (new leadership, more support from management, lower co-worker turnover), isn't terribly prudent.

Continuing into 2015 will effectively preclude robinplunder's suggestion that you simply omit reference to Company 4 on your résumé: thus aggravating your 'job hopping' concern. And perhaps more importantly, when you are frustrated, bored and disengaged you are unlikely to do your best work, and so run the risk of permanent damage to your professional reputation (most industries are 'small worlds', and word does get around).

"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive". Robert Louis Stevenson, An Inland Voyage (1878)
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Old 08-13-2014, 11:16 AM   #22
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The best way to get a higher salary is to jump ship. Internal promotions are a joke.

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Old 08-31-2014, 12:26 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
In my industry, EPC, (Engineering, Procurement, Construction), senior management is overwhelmingly populated by people who have been exceedingly disloyal to their previous employers (i.e., serial job-hoppers).

So, it's all industry-dependent.

Me, being a wage-slave with 25+ years of service at the same company, some people look at me like I have a 3rd eye growing out of my forehead ("WTF is wrong with that old guy?"). If you consider 51 as old.
Were in similar industries, my experiences (and path) was to move to new positions to advance my knowledge, professional growth and salary.

During your 20's & 30's its natural to want to work yourself up the corporate ladder, and if your current situation isn't fulfilling you should move on. However, after too many moves, new employers seem to frown upon a candidate who cant seem to stay in one place too long

After many moves I find myself in what could be the last job I ever hold. Although it is higher paying, its also one of the most intense positions I've held, I was recently recruited by a head hunter and excepted a job interview...just to talk... that particular manager picked my resume apart and asked for reasons for leaving each and every job.
Funny some companies can churn through 10-15 employees over a 30 year span but frown upon a candidate having 10-12 jobs over the same time period

Jump while your young, stay and plant yourself when you find a home.....the grass isn't always greener
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Old 12-23-2014, 08:48 AM   #24
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I figured I would post an update on this situation since we are a few months down the road.

I am still in the same position, although I did take the advice presented in these forums to try and find alternative employment with the intention of leaving the current position off my resume. Admittedly I did not search as hard as I have during other job searches, but I feel I did look around enough to have given a solid effort. Part of the reason I probably did not search harder was because I did have an opportunity at another firm present itself through a pretty good connection that I have and I felt good about my ability to land that role. Unfortunately that position did not work out. So ultimately I am still in the same role I was in earlier this year.

As for the job itself, it has improved, although I think my plan has changed a bit based on what has happened over the past few months.

Our new Director started in August and quit less than two months later. If that isn't a bad omen then I don't know what it is. It makes me also think that my perceptions about how this department is run are fairly accurate as in my experience people do not take that level of role and leave just 8 weeks later very often. But I am not sure if it just ended up not being a good fit for him. Either way, it caused some additional chaos within the group.

As part of the fallout of that move, I am now reporting to my former bosses boss, and that will be a permanent role. That has brought some stability to the job as she has been with the firm for 33 years and is very well respected in the organization. She is smart and in my opinion a reasonable manager. Probably a little bit too laid back, but I would rather work for someone too laid back then too high strung and controlling. So all in all, I have ended up with a pretty good boss out of all of this. In addition, because of the attrition on the team this year it benefited me by getting a performance review that scored in the highest ratings HR allows. My current boss felt that as a team we all rallied despite the adversity and she enough clout in the organization to avoid being forced to rate her team on the forced curve. I personally don't feel I earned that, but I will take it.

In addition, due to the turnover the company has offered a retention bonus to everyone on our team to stick around. The bonus is 15% of base salary. 10% is paid out by July 2015, the remaining 5% is paid out in July 2016. At this point there's no way I am leaving prior to July of this year because the retention bonus is substantial. The retention bonus is obviously very nice but has me wondering. I am assuming retention bonuses aren't handed out at my level unless you are really worried about attrition.

The job itself has been up and down. It is better than where I was 6 months ago. However, the instability in the role (essentially 4 bosses since February) is something I haven't dealt with in my professional career, but I think we have stabilized some in that regard which has given some direction to the role. During my performance review my new/current boss outlined what her expectations were from me and we had a discussion about some of the things I think we should be looking at "bigger picture" to build our department and program. This is big for me as one of my biggest issues is that I did not feel my position was well defined or explained to me when I started. The manager who hired me was very vague about expectations. My current boss is supportive and essentially given me free reign to accomplish my performance goals however I feel is necessary. To me this is a good thing as one of my primary issues with this job has been (as I mentioned before) lack of management support. Plus, the freedom she has given me will allow me to work on some projects that I think can help the team that I raised with some of the other managers I worked for in this role, but ultimately did not get supported on.

My team itself has been split into two groups essentially. My side (more business related) and the quantitative side (PhDs with technical backgrounds in statistics, mathematics, economics, etc). The quant side has a new manager now (new role that did not previously exist), and I think he is a good fit for the team and has brought another degree of stability to the group. I personally have not gotten along well with my coworkers as I feel there is no accountability among them and they don't care about whether or not they meet deadlines......our team is constantly missing deadlines. So I think the new manager on the quant side will help with that. He seems to get the bigger picture and he and I have had some discussions on how to coordinate our job functions better since we interact regularly.

So in a nutshell, for better or for worse I am stuck in this job still, although I think we have more stability than we did 4-5 months ago. Going in to 2015 I am more optimistic about the work itself and think I have the opportunity, support and freedom to work on some projects that are going to help me professionally. I think at this point I am going to stay in this role until at the very least next Oct/Nov. I am getting married in September and want the stability this role brings up until the wedding at least, plus the majority of the retention bonus comes pre-wedding.

I am still skeptical of the position, but feel there is legit reason for optimism. Plus I really do not want to add another "black mark" on my resume. I think there are enough professional and financial reasons to stick around in this role for most of this year. After that I plan to stay with the company, either in this role or in another position for another year or two. Obviously things can change if another opportunity comes up that is just too good to pass up, or if I get laid off, but that's the current plan. It's a rocky road and not perfect, but I think that things have turned a corner for now in this role. It has been a learning experience if nothing else.

Thanks for reading and sorry for the long post!
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Old 12-26-2014, 06:04 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by onebigdummy View Post
The best way to get a higher salary is to jump ship. Internal promotions are a joke.
I can attest to that. I was given a retention bonus, but I wasn't making squat. the best retention bonus with that company was the one I gave myself when I jumped ship and earned a 47% raise.
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Old 12-27-2014, 03:58 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Socal Tom View Post
I agree with Robinplunder. I would also toss your resume if I got it. As I hiring manager I've found that most recent college grads think that work should be exciting and fun all, the time, and after two years they should be promoted to CEO. They often leave their first job after two,years looking for the job where that is true. Then at the second job they figure out work is not all sunshine and butterflies, so they start to contribute. Some people never figure that out. The 4 years at company three helps, but you need to stay at least 2 years.Either get out now, and don't discuss this job, or stay for at least 3 years.

My suggestion to the OP:

1). Suck it up and build some resume stability...I don't directly hire more junior folks anymore, but if one of my directs showed up with your resume as a finalist warning bells would go off as it would strike me as someone who is simply prone to being unhappy and then run away

2). If/when you do move, make sure you're running towards something and not merely away from what you currently have...and ensure that what you're running towards isn't the illusion of an always-fulfilling, stress free work environment

Good luck. Sounds like you've got good education and good skills...just keep your chin up and keep moving forward!
Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity.
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Old 12-28-2014, 10:40 PM   #27
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Good luck Klubbie, Im struggling with a very similar work situation. Same phase of my career as you as well.

Thank God for FIRE, I don't understand how people can put up with working the same job for 35 years. Or even 5 years.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:57 PM   #28
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Back in mega corp I hired many SW engineers .... problem we faced was a 2 year training period before you made an iota of contribution. That's not to say those in training didn't THINK they were contributing.

So any resume with multiple jumps less than 2 years went to the round file.
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Old 12-30-2014, 01:31 AM   #29
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My view was that one job hop was allowed if it was followed by 3-4 years at a company.
So if the OP had left after one year, it wouldn't be a red flag, but if the next company didn't work out, I would have been a round filed also.
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Old 12-30-2014, 04:52 AM   #30
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Times have changed. My father worked for the same MegaCorp for over 40 years. The longest tenure I had with a company was 11 years. Recently I read the current US average is about 4 years.

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Old 12-30-2014, 10:40 AM   #31
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Times have changed. My father worked for the same MegaCorp for over 40 years. The longest tenure I had with a company was 11 years. Recently I read the current US average is about 4 years.
It also seems to depend on the industry. In high tech, we see lots of resumes with 1-2 years in a series of jobs. It is off-putting to employers because the person is likely to move on again after only a year or two after we hire them. I'd rather hire someone who has at least one job in the history with a longer tenure and more is even better.

I've had engineers tell me they were happy in their current job but "need" to move on because they have been at the same employer for almost two years. It seems to be an expectation that if they do not change jobs and technologies every couple years they will get stale and miss out on future opportunities.
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Old 12-31-2014, 08:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by robnplunder View Post
This type of resume is the 1st one to throw into reject file. Putting in another short stint in your resume will close the door more for companies who otherwise may consider you.

I think I'd update my resume to say you worked odd/temp jobs through grad school and then maybe start out with the 2009 summer intern job.
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Old 12-09-2016, 07:42 PM   #33
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I thought I would provide an update on this since I received so many thoughtful replies when I first posted. I am still in the same position and coming up on three years in the role in February. It has been an up and down ride. Needless to say the red flags I initially saw when I first took the role have turned out to be largely true. But I can't say that it has been all bad. So I will start with the good first.

My role expanded substantially and this job has been very good for me financially. The short and sweet of it breaks down like this - my income in 2016 is 64% higher than when I left my last firm. I initially took about an 18% raise in base pay to join my current firm. I received another 17% raise in base pay about 15 months ago as well as a formal promotion. I manage a team of 3 (4 including me). I also have a 15% target bonus (from base salary) that gets paid out as long as the company is performing well and I am an "average" employee. No issues there. In 2014 our department was struggling so badly and people leaving left and right that my current boss gave me a $15,000 retention bonus that was paid out over 18 months. The last payment on that was July of this year. In addition, the promotion I received led not only to an increase in salary but also for restricted stock units for the company. They do not vest until 2019 and 2020, but it is great to have them as I will either still be with the firm or will be able to use them to negotiate compensation at another company. So financially I can't complain at all about this role. It has been a blessing and in my opinion has set me up well for future roles. I didn't even ask for any of these things. My boss came to me with every one of them.

The other positives have been that there have been some projects that have come up that I have enjoyed and the fact that I was moved into a position where I manage a team again has been great. One of my fears taking this role was that I was giving up managing to be an individual contributor again. So to be back in a position to manage has been great. There are some corporate dynamics that have limited my ability to hire some talent I would have liked to bring on, but overall I have some younger folks on my team and I enjoy coaching them and helping them grow. Having the control over a number of aspects of my role has been great and it has allowed me to do a lot of things my way. I have also made some positive relationships with a number of senior leaders throughout the firm and have been recognized as a strong employee. This is very important to me as I think our departments reputation has continued to remain poor, so I am glad I have been able to at least do work at a level that has been recognized as higher quality. I was offered a position to join another team a few months back based on the reputation I have developed and ultimately turned it down because I felt I would just be running away from my current role into something I am not very interested in doing. But I guess the point is that I have had enough success that I have made that type of positive impression on senior leaders at the firm. These are all positives.

But there have been a number of negatives as well. In my last post I noted how my job function was split into a qualitative role (what I manage) and a quantitative piece. I also referenced that someone new had been hired to manage the quantitative team and that I thought he would help stabilize things. I couldn’t have been more wrong. He has only made the accountability issues worse than they were before. He will not commit to anything, misses every deadline and does so almost blatantly. He will say everything is on target and then at the last minute everything is in red status. He openly talks about how lazy he is. This is not a joke or exaggeration either. He thinks it’s a joke and part of his charm, but it’s ridiculous. He will openly talk on the floor, where other departments work close to us, and say how lazy he is and how he doesn’t want to have to do anymore work. We are a highly regulated industry so spend a lot of time meeting with government officials, and his demeanor in meetings is just completely unprofessional. He refers to the work that his team does as a “hack job” and alludes to “all quants being lazy” in meetings with our regulators. Lately, people in the bank and externally have gotten very critical of the work that he and his team have done and started to poke holes in it. He gets offended and emotional in meetings and starts yelling and being combative with our business partners and superiors. It’s just a bad look for the department.

It has reached the point where I can’t really do my job as effectively as I should be able to because he is a roadblock to everything and my boss will always support him. Any idea presented to him he shoots it down because he doesn’t want to do more work. Most of the discussions we have about these things include our boss and she doesn’t enforce anything or hold him or his team to any standards. He has hired a team of young graduates with no experience and conditioned them to not respect anyone’s time but their own so we have a team of 25-30 year olds who come and go as they please and have done nothing to integrate themselves into company culture.

To add to this, I really don’t think this guy is smart. He has some fancy degrees attached to his name, but I really believe that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His job function is heavily quantitative and every other job function we work with across the bank has similarly skilled people in it. They have questioned his work from day one and think he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Our department’s reputation has not improved at all. We are still considered to be a low performing department across the firm (and quite frankly we are), and our reputation is getting worse it seems. I may be overreacting about our reputation getting worse, but it is certainly not improving. We are now starting to get similar feedback from our government regulators who were incredibly critical of a report his team generated. They called it ineffective and unreliable and during our meeting with them said they think the math his team applied is wrong and inaccurate.

It’s a very weird situation to be in. I think my team has been able to separate ourselves from the quantitative team that we work with and has developed a decent reputation, but I still feel we are dragged down a bit by association. I think the department is a total mess and lacks accountability, and has since day one. I blame my boss because she lets it occur. The only way I can describe it is that it is like watching someone enable an alcoholic. I don’t say that lightly either because alcoholism runs in my family and I have had to deal with the effects of it in my own life. The behavior of my boss with this peer is just comparable to the enabling I have seen in my own family dealing with it.

I can’t be mad at my peer or his team because he is allowed to get away with the nonsense that he is. I have had multiple conversations with my boss this past year about my issues with the department and she has done nothing. And it has not been for lack of information. I have been very blunt with what I perceive to be the problems. She is just incredibly passive and I think her mindset is that we need to work it out between us, but it’s beyond that. For change to occur she needs to take action and she has proven she is unwilling to do so.

The plus for me is that despite all the things I have just described it has made for a very easy work environment for me during some major life changes. I got married in September last year. My wife and I bought a house in May. And our daughter was born a week and a half ago. So despite the flaws, this job has worked out very well during some major life events, and provided some financial stability that has allowed us to get through these major events without incurring any debt (except for the mortgage on our home). But I have reached the point where I need to move on and plan to start looking for something new both internally and externally. Bonus payout is in March so I am targeting that for when I would make a change. I am not particularly challenged in this role and don’t really feel like I am utilizing my skills in the best possible way. I have a pretty good idea of what I am looking for and plan to apply for roles that fit that idea. I am open to staying at the firm if a position opens up, but I don’t want to make a move just to make a move internally. My job is easy and I can ride it out until I get the right fit.

This has been a very interesting experience to say the least since I came to this company to get away from a bad situation only to walk into one that has never been all that good, at least from the standpoint of being part of a strong department and doing challenging work. A learning experience for sure, but I am glad I have stuck it out for three years, if only for the resume stability. My next position will definitely be one that I take because it’s the right fit rather than just to get away from something.
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:47 AM   #34
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Thank you for the update. Great to read about the many positives you've reported.

I think you are 100% right about your peer's performance issues being the responsibility of your boss: sounds like she is the one who should be looking for another job, i.e. one without any management responsibilities. Anyway, your attitude about it all seems realistic.

Best of luck with the job search next year.

"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive". Robert Louis Stevenson, An Inland Voyage (1878)
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