The perils of job hopping

[Klubbie]

Hi all, I am looking for some feedback on potentially "job hopping". A little about my work history to provide context.

I am 32 years old and graduated from college in 2005 at age 23. Here is my work history to date:

2005-2006 - Company 1
2006-2008 - Company 2
2008-2010 - Full time Graduate School (this included consulting projects which I have left on my resume but am considering removing or shrinking as they are not as relevant now)
2009 - Internship (summer between year 1 and 2 of grad school)
2010-2014 - Company 3 (this tenure included 2 promotions and management experience)
2014 - Present - Company 4

Company's 1 and 2 are not really relevant to my work experience at this point as my career has changed dramatically since grad school.

I fear I am getting close to job hopping if I change jobs again too soon. I left my company in 2014 because the manager I reported up through was a sociopath, and I was miserable and underpaid. The current job looked good on paper and hasn't been bad. But the work has largely been boring and the department has not had any stability. There is no strong leadership, and I do not feel challenged in what I do.

I have been with Company 4 since February and our entire team is 8 people (we are hoping to grow to 10). Since February, 4 people have left including the manager who hired me. We have a new manager coming in at month end who I am optimistic about, but it has still been a little unsettling seeing all the turnover. People have not been fired, but left of their own decision. Most of the people leaving are doing so because of work visa issues.

As you can tell the department I am in has had a lot of turnover. It is also very unorganized (it is a newer department that is still maturing) with minimal management support right now since our manager left. I believe though that this is due to my boss leaving and once a new manager is in place, this will change. The leadership over us since our manager left has been pulled in many directions and they are doing the best they can, but bottom line is there are only so many hours in a day, and I get that. That doesn't mean it isn't frustrating.

I am not convinced the work is going to turn into what I expected it to. I do feel that I am working hard and doing all I can to make the most of the job. I have received positive feedback from my manager before he left, as well as the interim manager's handling things in his absence. I have even been commended for taking a leadership role during the turnover and turmoil we have had. I just think I may have gotten the wrong impression about how much I would have liked the work when I took the position, as even with the positive feedback I am not feeling very engaged in my work.

I am also struggling with the lack of leadership. I am not someone who needs to be micromanaged, but I believe I work best in an environment where I have a strong leader with a vision that needs someone to execute on. I hate admitting that, but I think if I am being honest about my skill set that is reality.

It was by far the right decision to take this job because my old position had run its course, but I am wondering how long is it appropriate to give a new job a chance to flesh out? At what point do I just admit that the work isn't what I thought it would be and move on? If I leave in a year (give or take a few months) will I look like a job hopper? Or is it wise to let things mature a bit more over the next year due to all the change?

My plan at this point is to wait until the new manager comes in and give that at least 3-6 months to see how the department and position flesh out with new leadership as that could make a big impact. I am just thinking ahead because I would have thought by now I would have felt more comfortable in this role. I don't want to jump to conclusions though due to the turmoil we have had in the group. But at the same time I don't want to stay in a job that is boring just to stay and keep hoping I find myself more interested in the work at some point.

I welcome to any thoughts and input.

 

[Brat]

My opinion:

If you are considering leaving start searching NOW. Better to have a couple months to explain than a year and a half. More important than the length of employment are promotions/development in your field.

Don't leave off jobs 1 & 2 from your resume, it shows that you were working. If the work itself isn't relevant consider whether or not there are accomplishments to mention. Otherwise dates of employment, title. Likewise the consulting projects during grad school.

Feature your work, and promotions, at Company 3.

Reason for wanting to leave Company 4, discuss during interview.

 

[athena53]

With 4 years at Company 3, a potential employer might be willing to overlook your short tenure at Company 4, especially since you've got some solid, objective reasons for wanting to leave (high turnover, lack of management direction). Is your field small enough that the issues at Company 4 will be well-known? That could make it easier.

I have a niece who's a real fireball, and she's on her 3rd job since graduating college in 2008. One lasted less than a year; she realized it was a mistake and was approached by people she'd worked with before about another opportunity. She's been at her current job 2.5 years (thanks, LinkedIn!) and is making over $100K. (Her major was Marketing and she sells software to hospitals and other healthcare providers.)

So, you could do well despite a short tenure at one place. Just choose your next move carefully!

 

[footenote]

You're right to be worried about appearances. While the old days of working 35 years for MegaCorp are long dead, a defensible career narrative can be eroded by a perception of hopping.

If I were you, I'd work really hard at:

1) Finding a way to stay sane and stick with this gig at least a decent way into 2015. Part of this can be...

2) Networking in your industry. Research and write about hot industry topics, allowing you to post articles on LinkedIn, build a professional Twitter presence, etc. (If you can't plausibly work this into your 9-5, do it on your own time.)

Being a sector / niche rock star, you will also be more valuable to your current firm. Who knows - a dynamic leader somewhere else within your company might discover you this way and lift you off to a better berth.

P.S. If you are already active on social media (likely given your age), you may need to forge a distinct and separate professional social identity. And I'm sure you already edit and maintain your personal social online identity so internal and external recruiters see nothing objectionable.

 

[onebigdummy]

I would not worry at all. I'm in my 40s and my resume has more jumps than yours and it's never been an issue. I'm in tech field so not sure if that matters, as it is very common.

 

[Papa bear]

As a recruiter, know that most managers are ok with a lot of changes in companies as long as you have a good story for each. However, the recruiter/hr person may skip your résumé before even getting to the manager!

You can drop years of graduation off your résumé and drop jobs 1 and 2 and "hide" that portion of your career tract.

Your résumé is only as good as it can get you an interview. Manipulate it any way you see fit to get you in the door. (Omission is reasonable. Lying about having experience is a no no)

 

[MRG]

Most former employers will not divulge any more than your start and termination date. If your first two j*bs are not relevant to your current experience nobody will know, unless you tell them. Long gaps in employment you need to be able to explain. Sounds like you have plausible explanations for your last position. As a former hiring manager, your history would not be a concern to me.

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[athena53]

Another thought on this: I used to work with a guy who would ask "If we hire this person and they don't work out, will they quit?" when we were on the fence about a candidate. His thinking was that we could take a risk on someone who would realize their mistake, cut their losses and leave. We might not want to take that chance on someone who would hang on through counseling and paper trails to the bitter end when you fire him/her.

So, when I was still employed, and I saw an applicant who had short tenure someplace but whose explanation was "I saw that it was a bad fit so I left" (with some objective reasons and minimal drama), I didn't consider that a big minus. A string of such jobs would have been.

Early in my career they were interviewing someone who had a resume of 1.5 years here, 2 years there, over about 10 years. I think his longest tenure was about 2 years. I thought that was a red flag but hey, I was only 25, what did I know? They hired him and about 4 months later he went out to lunch, leaving a resignation letter on his desk.

 

[Senator]

As a person who jumped jobs many times early in my career, don't worry about it. Every two years is fine.

Technical people advance fast, much faster than Megacorps can keep up with and pay the correct salary. Early in your career, the megacorps should be giving 10%+ raises every year. But they give 2%. You need to move to get paid more.

Job jumping early in a technical career looks better in a resume than 10+ years at the same location. You have more experience and knowledge that you can bring to the table. The 10+ year guy only knows his niche, and likely was not good enough, or motivated enough, to get a job paying more.

Once you get a solid salary, it's time to stay. Lateral moves are not as 'pretty'.

 

[kgtest]

Once you get a solid salary, it's time to stay. Lateral moves are not as 'pretty'.

I say move when you are legitamately not challenged anymore. I am 33, on my fourth job in a eight year tech career and I feel that directly contributed to landing my latest job. You see, the company that hired me had enough with stale resources. Moving around keeps you agile which I feel a lot of companies like in a person. It shows they are willing to adapt to change which is a key component of success.

You can do anything you want, you already proved that. Now its doing what you need to do. For me and my family that means making the appropriate salary relevant to my skills and not being bored at work.

There is always a great reason why you changed jobs...just don't let your future prospective employer know those not-so-great reasons you left. Market yourself properly.

As for the resume, I would show that you were employed for jobs 1 and 2 but try to relate how you grew with those experiences...there might be directly relevant comparisons but for instance I moved from construction (framing homes) to now working on Software Development projects...to relate the two, I show the comparisons of making a mistake early in the home building process to making a mistake early in the software development and draw the comparison that both have similar consequenses in the end. I also do not include much info on the first 2 "contractor" jobs, just a one sentence blurb on my resume that I was not just a construction worker, but a leader within the construction industry.

 

[robnplunder]

Hi all, I am looking for some feedback on potentially "job hopping". A little about my work history to provide context.

I am 32 years old and graduated from college in 2005 at age 23. Here is my work history to date:

2005-2006 - Company 1
2006-2008 - Company 2
2008-2010 - Full time Graduate School (this included consulting projects which I have left on my resume but am considering removing or shrinking as they are not as relevant now)
2009 - Internship (summer between year 1 and 2 of grad school)
2010-2014 - Company 3 (this tenure included 2 promotions and management experience)
2014 - Present - Company 4

I've been hiring manager for years. This type of resume is the 1st one to throw into reject file. In my line of work (Silicon Valley engineering), people can't make serious contribution in their 1st year. Basically, we are paying 1 year salary for about 1/2 year of productivity. They have so much to learn, and adjust in the 1st year. Putting in another short stint in your resume will close the door more for companies who otherwise may consider you.

One thing you can do ... quit now and don't show the current company employment in your future resume.

 

[Brat]

robinplunder's approach is smart. Apply for other jobs immediately and don't mention your current employment.

 

[dallas27]

Job hopping - adj. def. - term employers use to scare their employees from leaving. Alternative def. - noun. - closet consultant.


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[Socal Tom]

I agree with Robinplunder. I would also toss your resume if I got it. As I hiring manager I've found that most recent college grads think that work should be exciting and fun all, the time, and after two years they should be promoted to CEO. They often leave their first job after two,years looking for the job where that is true. Then at the second job they figure out work is not all sunshine and butterflies, so they start to contribute. Some people never figure that out. The 4 years at company three helps, but you need to stay at least 2 years.Either get out now, and don't discuss this job, or stay for at least 3 years.
Tom

 

[eridanus]

I've had 9 jobs in 10 years. The longest stay was 4 years, and there was a year of travel, which means 8 jobs in 5 years.

I have no problem getting jobs in tech. It helps that many of my jobs are project-based contracts.

 

[ls99]

I keep mis-reading the thread title as job hoping.

 

[Bestwifeever]

DS has almost the exact same work history including grad school in the middle, 3 years, 2 years, 2 years full time grad school, 3 years (plus internship at same employer during school), and going on 1 year now. He would jump tomorrow to get a job with no travel, as they have a baby now.

I think the op stepping up leadership wise during the no-manager period at this new job is commendable and telling, if he enjoyed the experience. Maybe his company is big enough that he could move up and out of the current department?

 

[Rusty]

In my industry, EPC, (Engineering, Procurement, Construction), senior management is overwhelmingly populated by people who have been exceedingly disloyal to their previous employers (i.e., serial job-hoppers).

So, it's all industry-dependent.

Me, being a wage-slave with 25+ years of service at the same company, some people look at me like I have a 3rd eye growing out of my forehead ("WTF is wrong with that old guy?"). If you consider 51 as old.

 

[Klubbie]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Seems to be some differing opinions with a good portion of those who have no issue with my work history being in the IT/tech industry.

Employer 3 and employer 4 on my resume are in the same industry. Both firms are large. Employer 3 was around 200K + employees and Employer 4 is 12,000 employees. There are a few other firms in the area I live in that are the same industry that are fairly large as well. So there are potential opportunities there. I can't move internally until February next year, but I haven't ruled that out as a possibility if turnover and leadership don't stabilize.

One thing I learned working at Employer 3 is that it was common practice to work at Employer 3 for a few years, leave for a year or two then come back. So there is some "back and forth" between some of the companies in the market I work in. But that said I don't want to play that game just to play it.

As I hiring manager I've found that most recent college grads think that work should be exciting and fun all, the time, and after two years they should be promoted to CEO. They often leave their first job after two,years looking for the job where that is true. Then at the second job they figure out work is not all sunshine and butterflies, so they start to contribute. Some people never figure that out.

This is not me. In fact, the last thing I want to be is CEO. My first job out of college was my only opportunity at the time so I took it. My second job was a geographical move to take a bit of a risk. I knew it would only hold me over to grad school though as that was on my radar. If I hadn't planned to go to grad school I would have stayed there for a few more years.

I have valued career progression, but never felt or thought I was entitled to anything. My mentality is to do the best I can, work hard, contribute, and try to improve where I can.

As a person who jumped jobs many times early in my career, don't worry about it. Every two years is fine.

Technical people advance fast, much faster than Megacorps can keep up with and pay the correct salary. Early in your career, the megacorps should be giving 10%+ raises every year. But they give 2%. You need to move to get paid more.

Job jumping early in a technical career looks better in a resume than 10+ years at the same location. You have more experience and knowledge that you can bring to the table. The 10+ year guy only knows his niche, and likely was not good enough, or motivated enough, to get a job paying more.

Once you get a solid salary, it's time to stay. Lateral moves are not as 'pretty'.

I struggle with this a bit. Money isn't everything, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around getting 1.5% raises staying put at the same company for 3-4 years. I saw it all the time at Employer 3 (and experienced it). You succeed and do well (and get the highest possible performance rating), but get rewarded with a 2-3% raise at best. There was always an excuse why there was no money for raises (even when we were making record profits every year, billions upon billions of dollars). This may be specific to the department I worked in, but it was my experience.

But then when it comes to hiring from the outside for positions the Scrooge McDuck vault of gold coins opens up and money is free flowing. I saw it all the time at Employer 3. If we tried to fill a position with an internal candidate who was getting promoted, they would get a small raise or sometimes no raise at all. Bring in someone from the outside though and they would be willing to pay that person sometimes as much as 10k more per year than the internal candidate who was more qualified than the external. But because one person is external they have more flexibility on salary. It makes no sense and demotivated a lot of people, and did not help in retaining good employees.

This is somewhat off topic, but it baffles me that companies operate like this and definitely factors into some of my decision making from a career standpoint at this stage in my career. I don't expect a large raise every year, but from what I have seen when one reaches the point where they actually do deserve a real raise (beyond 2-3%) it takes leaving a firm to do it.

 

[growing_older]

Have you considered just dropping Employer #1 and #2. Your resume starting at grad school, followed by 4 years with promotions is good. A short stint at current employer is explained as a bad fit and doesn't look so bad if previous position was 4 years.

 

[Milton]

I think you would be well advised to accept that you made a mistake and immediately seek alternative employment. Sticking around for another six months, in the hope that things may somehow become better due to factors entirely outside of your control (new leadership, more support from management, lower co-worker turnover), isn't terribly prudent.

Continuing into 2015 will effectively preclude robinplunder's suggestion that you simply omit reference to Company 4 on your résumé: thus aggravating your 'job hopping' concern. And perhaps more importantly, when you are frustrated, bored and disengaged you are unlikely to do your best work, and so run the risk of permanent damage to your professional reputation (most industries are 'small worlds', and word does get around).

 

[onebigdummy]

The best way to get a higher salary is to jump ship. Internal promotions are a joke.

 

[Mtek]

In my industry, EPC, (Engineering, Procurement, Construction), senior management is overwhelmingly populated by people who have been exceedingly disloyal to their previous employers (i.e., serial job-hoppers).

So, it's all industry-dependent.

Me, being a wage-slave with 25+ years of service at the same company, some people look at me like I have a 3rd eye growing out of my forehead ("WTF is wrong with that old guy?"). If you consider 51 as old.

Were in similar industries, my experiences (and path) was to move to new positions to advance my knowledge, professional growth and salary.

During your 20's & 30's its natural to want to work yourself up the corporate ladder, and if your current situation isn't fulfilling you should move on. However, after too many moves, new employers seem to frown upon a candidate who cant seem to stay in one place too long

After many moves I find myself in what could be the last job I ever hold. Although it is higher paying, its also one of the most intense positions I've held, I was recently recruited by a head hunter and excepted a job interview...just to talk... that particular manager picked my resume apart and asked for reasons for leaving each and every job.
Funny some companies can churn through 10-15 employees over a 30 year span but frown upon a candidate having 10-12 jobs over the same time period

Jump while your young, stay and plant yourself when you find a home.....the grass isn't always greener

 

[Klubbie]

I figured I would post an update on this situation since we are a few months down the road.

I am still in the same position, although I did take the advice presented in these forums to try and find alternative employment with the intention of leaving the current position off my resume. Admittedly I did not search as hard as I have during other job searches, but I feel I did look around enough to have given a solid effort. Part of the reason I probably did not search harder was because I did have an opportunity at another firm present itself through a pretty good connection that I have and I felt good about my ability to land that role. Unfortunately that position did not work out. So ultimately I am still in the same role I was in earlier this year.

As for the job itself, it has improved, although I think my plan has changed a bit based on what has happened over the past few months.

Our new Director started in August and quit less than two months later. If that isn't a bad omen then I don't know what it is. It makes me also think that my perceptions about how this department is run are fairly accurate as in my experience people do not take that level of role and leave just 8 weeks later very often. But I am not sure if it just ended up not being a good fit for him. Either way, it caused some additional chaos within the group.

As part of the fallout of that move, I am now reporting to my former bosses boss, and that will be a permanent role. That has brought some stability to the job as she has been with the firm for 33 years and is very well respected in the organization. She is smart and in my opinion a reasonable manager. Probably a little bit too laid back, but I would rather work for someone too laid back then too high strung and controlling. So all in all, I have ended up with a pretty good boss out of all of this. In addition, because of the attrition on the team this year it benefited me by getting a performance review that scored in the highest ratings HR allows. My current boss felt that as a team we all rallied despite the adversity and she enough clout in the organization to avoid being forced to rate her team on the forced curve. I personally don't feel I earned that, but I will take it.

In addition, due to the turnover the company has offered a retention bonus to everyone on our team to stick around. The bonus is 15% of base salary. 10% is paid out by July 2015, the remaining 5% is paid out in July 2016. At this point there's no way I am leaving prior to July of this year because the retention bonus is substantial. The retention bonus is obviously very nice but has me wondering. I am assuming retention bonuses aren't handed out at my level unless you are really worried about attrition.

The job itself has been up and down. It is better than where I was 6 months ago. However, the instability in the role (essentially 4 bosses since February) is something I haven't dealt with in my professional career, but I think we have stabilized some in that regard which has given some direction to the role. During my performance review my new/current boss outlined what her expectations were from me and we had a discussion about some of the things I think we should be looking at "bigger picture" to build our department and program. This is big for me as one of my biggest issues is that I did not feel my position was well defined or explained to me when I started. The manager who hired me was very vague about expectations. My current boss is supportive and essentially given me free reign to accomplish my performance goals however I feel is necessary. To me this is a good thing as one of my primary issues with this job has been (as I mentioned before) lack of management support. Plus, the freedom she has given me will allow me to work on some projects that I think can help the team that I raised with some of the other managers I worked for in this role, but ultimately did not get supported on.

My team itself has been split into two groups essentially. My side (more business related) and the quantitative side (PhDs with technical backgrounds in statistics, mathematics, economics, etc). The quant side has a new manager now (new role that did not previously exist), and I think he is a good fit for the team and has brought another degree of stability to the group. I personally have not gotten along well with my coworkers as I feel there is no accountability among them and they don't care about whether or not they meet deadlines......our team is constantly missing deadlines. So I think the new manager on the quant side will help with that. He seems to get the bigger picture and he and I have had some discussions on how to coordinate our job functions better since we interact regularly.

So in a nutshell, for better or for worse I am stuck in this job still, although I think we have more stability than we did 4-5 months ago. Going in to 2015 I am more optimistic about the work itself and think I have the opportunity, support and freedom to work on some projects that are going to help me professionally. I think at this point I am going to stay in this role until at the very least next Oct/Nov. I am getting married in September and want the stability this role brings up until the wedding at least, plus the majority of the retention bonus comes pre-wedding.

I am still skeptical of the position, but feel there is legit reason for optimism. Plus I really do not want to add another "black mark" on my resume. I think there are enough professional and financial reasons to stick around in this role for most of this year. After that I plan to stay with the company, either in this role or in another position for another year or two. Obviously things can change if another opportunity comes up that is just too good to pass up, or if I get laid off, but that's the current plan. It's a rocky road and not perfect, but I think that things have turned a corner for now in this role. It has been a learning experience if nothing else.

Thanks for reading and sorry for the long post!

 

[kgtest]

The best way to get a higher salary is to jump ship. Internal promotions are a joke.

I can attest to that. I was given a retention bonus, but I wasn't making squat. the best retention bonus with that company was the one I gave myself when I jumped ship and earned a 47% raise.