What do you desire?

[FinanceDude]

Darn, in answer to the post, I was just going to say DW..........

 

[HFWR]

Darn, in answer to the post, I was just going to say DW..........

She looking over your shoulder?

 

[veremchuka]

Is the messenger dead yet? Jeeeeeez...

I wasn't being critical of the op and if that was how anyone saw it I apologize, it was the dopey message in the video that got me so po'ed.

 

[azphx1972]

Until we live in a Utopian society, it's not practical to ignore money while making education/career decisions. I think the book "Your Money Or Your Life" delivers the message better, and I highly recommend reading it if you haven't done so.

 

[bondi688]

Wonder what the guy posing the question is doing for a living and who is paying him?

He is advocating living the wet dream. Reaility has way of intruding, like food, shelter and other diddly stuff.

Alan Watts is long dead. He died in his 50's back in early 1970's. He called himself a philosophical entertainer. He was known for writing and lecturing about Zen and Eastern philosophy. He advocated free love, the counter-culture, "expanding" the mind with LSD and mescaline.

The 60's mindset, somewhat of an extended adolescence of the hippie culture, may appear quaint, naive or irresponsible to some today.

 

[ls99]

Alan Watts is long dead. He died in his 50's back in early 1970's. He called himself a philosophical entertainer. He was known for writing and lecturing about Zen and Eastern philosophy. He advocated free love, the counter-culture, "expanding" the mind with LSD and mescaline.

The 60's mindset, somewhat of an extended adolescence of the hippie culture, may appear quaint, naive or irresponsible to some today.

Sorry, I have no idea of who or what Alan Watts was. In 65 I arrived in the US, then was kept busy by the Army for several year.

 

[Milton]

RE: GSMAN and his part-time band -

Very much agree. In the home-brewing world, there is a very active and well respected hobby-brewer. People are always telling him - 'man, you should start your own brewery!' He always answers - 'then it would be a JOB, and I'd end up hating it! Why ruin a great hobby?'.

There were a couple of decent articles on this issue in the May 21, 2012 edition of The Wall Street Journal (page R7):

Rob Johnson, "Point. Set. Match. I Lose"

Tom McNichol, "Do What You Love? Maybe Not"

 

[audreyh1]

He kinda glossed over the point where you have to do a bunch of things that you don't like to do in order to get to the part you like to do.

If "money was no object" when I was working, then I would have spent all of my workday doing the things I enjoyed... and paying someone else to go to department head meetings for me.

Even my boss who really enjoyed running his own company said "there is no job, no matter how great, that doesn't have some sh!tty parts."

I think when someone else is paying you to do something, even if you are doing what you dream of and love, there will always be some aspect that you won't like or some hassles.

Personally I find that not having any customers, clients, co-workers or bosses to deal with is what really eliminates the crap. But you can't do that until you are FIRE'd!

 

[EvrClrx311]

I take no offense to anything posted here. As an INTJ I love to see other perspectives on things. Debate is awesome for my psyche.

I'll say one thing. I see a common denominator in what people here posted that is negative. You feel the narrator is labeling what they did or do as a job as the wrong thing - boring and bad? I think you guys are putting too much into the skydiving, horse riding, mountain climbing. Those are emotional triggers for the disengaged... you know, those people sitting in a dead end retail job just to pay bills.

I see the opposite. If you valued financial security... and picked a job that gave you that. You did what the narrator is suggesting. You took control of your life and had a plan to live a happy one. Even if the actual job you did wasn't enjoyable... you maximized that positive (security) by setting aside money to get to what you wanted to do. Most people in life cannot do that. They need a video like this to snap them out of their paycheck to paycheck lives.

Its one thing to get paid well for something you don't like and to set aside to get out of it asap. Its another entirely to get paid poorly for something you hate, that is what this video is speaking about. At least in my view.

This video rings true for me because I both have a job I love and opportunity to use the security, financially, from it to do things in life that make me happier.

I'd like to think that if I hated engineering... I wouldn't have put myself through the misery of this just to get a paycheck. I'd try to find the maximum earning potential from a job that I could enjoy.

The message isn't about ignoring money... its about trying your best not to let it control you. Anyone who has FIRE'd or plans to, is already light years ahead on that front.

just my 2 cents...

 

[ERD50]

I take no offense to anything posted here. As an INTJ I love to see other perspectives on things. Debate is awesome for my psyche.

.... If you valued financial security... and picked a job that gave you that. You did what the narrator is suggesting. You took control of your life and had a plan to live a happy one. ....

Its one thing to get paid well for something you don't like and to set aside to get out of it asap. Its another entirely to get paid poorly for something you hate, that is what this video is speaking about. At least in my view.

....

The message isn't about ignoring money... its about trying your best not to let it control you. Anyone who has FIRE'd or plans to, is already light years ahead on that front.

just my 2 cents...

Good to get your feedback on the responses.

I can go along with you that if we chose a balance between job satisfaction and financial security, that we are 'doing what we desire'. But I don't see how you get that from this video.

I watched again, and I'll quote as closely as I can (the captions are off a bit).

First, he is guiding students with these words, this isn't just a message for people already 'trapped' in a dead end job they don't enjoy. So I'll stick with my earlier comment that this could be dangerous advice.

He says (emph mine)... ' If money were no object, ... what do you love, do that, forget the money, ... if you love what you are doing, no matter what it is, you can become master of it, and you will be able to get a good fee for it...'

Sure, that will work for some people, but I think it is foolish to say 'forget about the money'. One should be well aware of what the financial outcomes are likely to be, and think about how that would be for them.

The other thing I'll stand by, and object to, is his black & white view. It's just really biased, and unhelpful. He says... ' If money is the most important thing, you will completely waste your time...', he refers to a 'miserable life'... (edit/add: ) It's not like it has to be one or the other, money was not 'the most important thing' for me, but it was a consideration. One that I am glad I thought about.

And then something about us raising our children to (apparently) live the same 'wretched life' we lived? 'all retch and no vomit'? Is that what he said?

I think he would be better serving those students if he offered some real perspective on different careers, the typical earnings, and ask each individual to consider how happy they might be in that career, and balance that against financial rewards.

Maybe the current massive student loan debt we read about is partially an outcome of the kind of approach this video encourages? I don't see how you can say that 'The message isn't about ignoring money... ', when he comes out and says 'forget about the money... if money was no object'?

If the video is really about 'trying your best not to let it (money) control you.', I think he did a lousy job. That would be a worthwhile message (again, balance is key, IMO), but I didn't hear that, and the words don't seem to match that.

Actually, DW went through some of this 'do what you love' approach. The post is already too long, so I'll just say she ended up switching careers, and neither of us would use words like 'miserable' or 'wretched' to describe our lives so far. Heh, heh, now I'm actually starting to get PO'd all over - at the arrogance of this guy!

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

OK, I can't help myself....

After re-reading my post, I also have to say - is this really a 'problem'? Really, how many young kids are looking to get into a high paying career, just for the money, even though they expect to hate it? Most high paying careers take a lot of effort to attain. I bet most in that path have thought pretty hard about it.

I'd expect the opposite to be far more likely - that students are following their dream with no awareness of the economics, or demand in that field. Their 'dream' turns into waiting tables to make the rent. Dream, dream, dream.

Maybe some kids allow themselves to get pushed into the family business, or follow a career that their family pushed on them. But that's really a different problem. That could be any combination of high/low pay, and high/low job satisfaction. It's an individual thing.

-ERD50

 

[azphx1972]

I see the opposite. If you valued financial security... and picked a job that gave you that. You did what the narrator is suggesting. You took control of your life and had a plan to live a happy one. Even if the actual job you did wasn't enjoyable... you maximized that positive (security) by setting aside money to get to what you wanted to do. Most people in life cannot do that. They need a video like this to snap them out of their paycheck to paycheck lives.

You're talking about making sacrifices early on in order to have a secure future, which is what most of us here can relate to. I don't see that in what Alan Watts said at all:

You do that, and forget the money. Because if you say that getting the money is the most important thing, you will spend your life completely wasting your time. You’ll be doing things you don’t like doing in order to go on living that is to go on doing things you don’t like doing. Which is stupid! Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way. And after all if you do really like what you’re doing it doesn’t matter what it is, you can eventually become a master of it. The only way to become a master of something is to be really with it.

I would venture to guess that if we took a poll here, the majority of us did not pick our career out of a passion for it, but because of some other factor. Speaking for myself, if I loved my job so much, I would not care about achieving FIRE because I wouldn't want to stop doing it.

 

[Milton]

I also have to say - is this really a 'problem'? Really, how many young kids are looking to get into a high paying career, just for the money, even though they expect to hate it? ... I'd expect the opposite to be far more likely - that students are following their dream with no awareness of the economics, or demand in that field.

Absolutely correct.

 

[Mulligan]

Absolutely correct.

My daughter is certainly following yours and ERD's viewpoint. Driving straight of the cliff to reach her goal of a "starving artist degree". I have done everything I can to persuade her differently but it isn't going to happen. It is her life, but I had to make sure she knew living in a refrigerator cardboard box with saran wrap serving as the vinyl siding will not be an enjoyable lifestyle. I have also told her to develop her "barista" skills as that part time job will be needed to subsidize her career job. Totally have wasted my breath the past 2 years, but oh well, still love her though.

 

[ERD50]

More reflecting on this.... when I think back to the things I hated about my job, the things that made it miserable from time to time - those had little/nothing to do with the career I chose. They were the bureaucratic brick-walls, the politics, etc., that most of us seem to run into (else Dilbert cartoons would have been a flop).

So I might go to lunch with a mechanical engineer, a production sup, a line tech and guy in finance, and we'd all be beefing about basically the same things.

I read the articles that Milton posted below. Same thing - these guys might have their 'dream job', but the 'stuff' that we hate creeps into those too. This ties back to doing what you love as a hobby, so it doesn't get 'corrupted' by office politics and such.

A slight aside - some of the people who tell you they just 'love their jobs' are lying. I think it makes them feel good, and maybe superior to say it, like 'hey, my life is great, so sorry you are stuck and sad'. One friend of ours is like this, and I've known others. While she has a job, she talks about how great it is. She moves on, and a year later she's telling you how bad that old job sucked.

There were a couple of decent articles on this issue in the May 21, 2012 edition of The Wall Street Journal (page R7):

Rob Johnson, "Point. Set. Match. I Lose"

Tom McNichol, "Do What You Love? Maybe Not"

Here's the links - looks like they are on-line in their entirety:

Entrepreneurs are told to follow their passion. That may kill your passion. - WSJ.com

The hard reality of teaching tennis - WSJ.com

-ERD50

 

[Milton]

ERD50, thanks for posting the links (I used to be able to do that, but don't know if if is possible via an IPad, or am too lazy to learn).

Mulligan, my father had similar discussions with my sister. She is intelligent, outgoing and multi-talented, and would almost certainly have done well in the business, IT or engineering careers he advocated. Instead, she was determined to follow her bliss as a musician. That ultimately went nowhere, but she enjoyed herself and has always been self-supporting through a variety of contract positions in various industries. While she leads much more of a hand-to-mouth existence than I would be comfortable with, she seems to be happy ... so it can work out. I hope for a similar result with your daughter.

 

[Milton]

I'm just reading the book So Good They Can't Ignore You: Why Skills Trump Passion in the Quest for Work You Love (2012), by Cal Newport. He makes a convincing case that "follow your passion" is very bad career advice.