Cholesterol Levels and Carbs

[HFWR]

Now your talkin'...

 

[twaddle]

Low-carb guy checking in after a few days on the diet.

So, I thought a little a bit about the changes in my diet. Nothing radical really. I basically dropped bread, tortillas, crackers and all other refined carbs. Also dropped starchy veggies like potatoes. And I added cheese as a snack.

Cheese! I formed a hypothesis that cheese was the culprit with my digestive problems, and so far dropping cheese looks like a winning solution!

Speaking of hypotheses, remember that Atkins dude? He died of heart disease and that made a lot of low-carb bashers snicker. So, the fine folks at Harvard said "we wonder if low-carb is associated with increased risk of heart disease." And they looked at the data they collected for the long-term nurses health study. I'm not a huge fan of observational studies, but here's the press release:

Healthy Long Life - News - Researchers find vegetarian low-carb diet is associated with lower risk of heart disease

Basically, it says the following:

1) A low-carb diet has no more risk than a low-fat diet

2) A low-carb diet with most of the protein and fat coming from vegetable sources significantly reduces risk

3) A diet with a high glycemic load significantly increases risk

 

[peterj]

My experience with low carb

I went low carb last November after reading this article-http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=health&category=other.diseases.ailments&conitem=4a935e4e40fae010VgnVCM20000012281eac____
I have lost 50 lbs and my chronic heartburn completely disappeared. Try googling Gary Taubes article What if has been a big fat lie. It ran in the NY times Sunday section a while ago.

 

[windsurf]

I went low carb last November after reading this article-http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=health&category=other.diseases.ailments&conitem=4a935e4e40fae010VgnVCM20000012281eac____
I have lost 50 lbs and my chronic heartburn completely disappeared. Try googling Gary Taubes article What if has been a big fat lie. It ran in the NY times Sunday section a while ago.

I've got Taubes book on order from Amazon and it should be released next week. He was a science major and is one of the best journalists reporting medical issues. I will provide a review of the book a week or so after I receive it. There is a measure of off-handed fluff floating through this thread. I'll probably start a new thread.

 

[twaddle]

There is a measure of off-handed fluff floating through this thread.

This is a fluffy forum. What'd you expect?

FWIW, here's the Taubes article:

What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie? - New York Times

And here's a rebuttal:

Big Fat Lies (pdf link)

 

[kitty_37]

Atkins did not die of heart disease.

He fell on the ice in NYC and was unconscious in the hospital for sometime and died of these injuries. At the time of his death in the hospital his weight was about 10 lbs over his regular weight due to being on iv fluid/bloating- He was in his 70's and did not have heart disease.

kitty

 

[Khan]

Atkins did not die of heart disease.

He fell on the ice in NYC and was unconscious in the hospital for sometime and died of these injuries. At the time of his death in the hospital his weight was about 10 lbs over his regular weight due to being on iv fluid/bloating- He was in his 70's and did not have heart disease.

kitty

Thank you for quashing this ugly lie.

 

[ERD50]

Atkins did not die of heart disease.

He fell on the ice in NYC and was unconscious in the hospital for sometime and died of these injuries. At the time of his death in the hospital his weight was about 10 lbs over his regular weight due to being on iv fluid/bloating- He was in his 70's and did not have heart disease.

kitty

Thank you for quashing this ugly lie.

Robert Atkins (nutritionist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Around 2000, Atkins started to develop a heart condition, cardiomyopathy, which he claimed was unrelated to his diet.[1][2] On April 18, 2002, Atkins suffered a cardiac arrest. He made a recovery and returned to work.

OK, so he had a heart condition and cardiac arrest a year before he fell on the ice. Glad we cleared that up.

-ERD50

 

[windsurf]

Robert Atkins (nutritionist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK, so he had a heart condition and cardiac arrest a year before he fell on the ice. Glad we cleared that up.

-ERD50

This type of exchange foucsing on superficial ego points adds nothing to the discussion of an incredibly important and interesting topic.

 

[ERD50]

This type of exchange foucsing on superficial ego points adds nothing to the discussion of an incredibly important and interesting topic.

You are right, and I did think about that a while after I posted, but didn't get back to edit or add to it. Now I am sorry that I didn't. I guess I just fell into a trap from the other comments that seemed to make something of it. Sorry.

For the record: Whether Atkins had heart disease or not is a sample of one and means nothing to the topic.

I do remember reading something from Taubes years ago, and my recollection of it was that he was really stretching with his observations, and used a lot of poor logic. But I need to refresh myself on the topic from the links provided.

From what I recall from reading Atkin's book years ago, was that I really felt he was showing one side of the story. It bothered me that he seemed on this anti-carb crusade, but never addressed the great health of the Okinowans, who ate a lot of (unrefined) carbohydrates and had a low fat diet. He also seemed to attack the modern 'low fat' diets, but I think the problem with those is people substituted refined carbs/sugars for the fat. But he seemed to want to just blame the 'low fat' part of it.

When I detect a lack of balance, it sends up flags, and I remember a lot of flags when I read Atkins, but it was years ago.

It also seems to me that everyone and his brother was talking up the low-carb diet a few years back. 'Hey, it's easy, I can eat all this steak and butter, it's great!'. So how come I still see so many fat people?

Again, I need to do some more reading to get up-to-date, but I really think there is something in the info that twaddle provided links to. The glycemic index seems to go a long way towards tying these refined/unrefined carbs ideas together. Animal/vegetable protein/fat may play an important role in it all also.

Looking forward to getting back to a good discussion on it - thanks.

-ERD50

 

[twaddle]

So how come I still see so many fat people?

That's one of the arguments against 20+ years of low-fat diets, too. Bottom-line is that obesity and diabetes are increasing in this country and have been for a while.

In terms of weight loss, I think the evidence is strong that low-carb diets work. Even if two groups have the same caloric intake, those on a low-carb high-protein/fat diet report being more satiated. Studies have also shown that the peptides responsible for the satiation response are present in higher quantities in response to fat and protein compared to carbs.

From a long-term health perspective, I think a lot of questions are still unanswered. Maybe there's more than one answer due to genetic variation.

I wouldn't try to sell anybody on the idea of a low-carb (or low-GI/GL) diet, but if they have high triglycerides, a low-carb diet is a fairly non-controversial approach to lowering TG.

My biggest gripe is that there's no great way to get a handle on your cardiovascular health. Cholesterol levels really aren't that great of a predictor. CRP isn't that great, either. A fairly new one -- a peptide called BNP -- may be a better biomarker.

It'd be nice to know how healthy I am before I start experimenting on myself to improve my health.

 

[ERD50]

That's one of the arguments against 20+ years of low-fat diets, too.

Understood, but not too many people ever looked at a low fat diet as 'easy'. That always seemed to be the sales pitch with the low carb. I know I had friends tell me ' I eat steak and butter, I eat a nuts, I eat all this stuff, it's great - why wouldn't you want to do this?'.

Bottom-line is that obesity and diabetes are increasing in this country and have been for a while.

I think that is simply because we have relatively inexpensive, high calorie food in front of us at all times. And we are programmed to eat, our bodies still think we may face a 'lean winter' soon, but it does not come for most of us. It's an unintended consequence of our success.

I wouldn't try to sell anybody on the idea of a low-carb (or low-GI/GL) diet, but if they have high triglycerides, a low-carb diet is a fairly non-controversial approach to lowering TG.

Could be, but mine also came down with a diet pretty high in unrefined carbs, and watching the fat (but not low fat - I shoot for 25% of calories from fat). The 'bulk' from a lot of unrefined carbs, coupled with eating bulky snacks between meals and drinking a lot of water kept me from feeling hungry.

But it was work. The biggest thing I did was pay attention to EVERY bite of food I ate. I figured, if I'm going to take in 1800 calories, I want to enjoy every single one of them. So I did the thing where you put the fork down between each bite, and stop and appreciate the flavor of the food. Never eat 'junky' food - I would say 'that is not worth the calories', I want really good food for every bite. Some of those habits stuck a bit, but it is hard to keep it up completely. I was surprised just how many times in the past that I would gulp down 200 calories, and I never even really tasted the food. So I try to change that.

My biggest gripe is that there's no great way to get a handle on your cardiovascular health. Cholesterol levels really aren't that great of a predictor.

Agreed. It's frustrating, a lot of shooting in the dark.

-ERD50

 

[twaddle]

I was surprised just how many times in the past that I would gulp down 200 calories, and I never even really tasted the food.

I think this is key. In my mind, there are at least four factors at work:

1) how easy is it to consume

2) how full does it make you feel

3) how many calories

4) what's the metabolic pathway

If I eat two small chocolate-chip cookies, that's about 400 calories, and I'm still hungry. Plus, they come packaged a bunch to a box, so access to more is easy. And they are digested immediately, so my blood sugar spikes, and an insulin reaction signals my body to store the excess energy.

Cookies lose on every metric.

If I eat a double cheeseburger without the bun, that's about 300 calories, and I'm full. Digestion probably takes days.

Either way, to burn that many calories, I'd need to jog for 1-2 hours!

Calories are too hard to burn via exercise. Calories are too easy to consume from carbs. But protein seems just right.

 

[dumpster56]

I think this is key. In my mind, there are at least four factors at work:

1) how easy is it to consume

2) how full does it make you feel

3) how many calories

4) what's the metabolic pathway

If I eat two small chocolate-chip cookies, that's about 400 calories, and I'm still hungry. Plus, they come packaged a bunch to a box, so access to more is easy. And they are digested immediately, so my blood sugar spikes, and an insulin reaction signals my body to store the excess energy.

Cookies lose on every metric.

If I eat a double cheeseburger without the bun, that's about 300 calories, and I'm full. Digestion probably takes days.

Either way, to burn that many calories, I'd need to jog for 1-2 hours!

Calories are too hard to burn via exercise. Calories are too easy to consume from carbs. But protein seems just right.

So true, I have seen distance runners actually GAIN WEIGHT while running 40 miles a week. Now I just got back from a 2 hour run this morning, probably burned 2200 calories during the 14 mile run. Now I may drink 3 beers today boom got 500 calories back in the body like that!

The older you are the less we must eat. The older we are the more exercise you must do. At 51 I am now running more per week than I was at 41 yes the miles are slower but I know what I must do to keep the doctor away.

 

[haha]

The older we are the more exercise you must do. At 51 I am now running more per week than I was at 41 yes the miles are slower but I know what I must do to keep the doctor away.

NewGuy, your exercising is really impressive. I don't know how your body can get up and do it day after day.

Now how about some political postings? I get some vicarious enjoyment out of the way you flout the PC canon and tell us how it is out there.

Ha

 

[dumpster56]

NewGuy, your exercising is really impressive. I don't know how your body can get up and do it day after day.

Now how about some political postings? I get some vicarious enjoyment out of the way you flout the PC canon and tell us how it is out there.

Ha

I ask that question about my running a few times a week at 4:30am when I am out on a morning run before a day of work, Yes I have those two part time teaching days now. I teach Kindergarden and 2nd and 3rd grade physical education classes down here in North Carolina. A great gig! But I wonder if all this running is doing
me any good, and then I remember that cardiac cath 6 years ago when I had viral pericarditis and the doc said wow your arteries are clear as a bell, no heart disease for you and my family history is awful! Got to keep moving or we get rusty and break..

Political postings? Hummmm, Nope this is the health forum section....

I will not go political nope not gonna do it, nope not gonna ........ Bush that %8&(_&566........

 

[twaddle]

Mini review of Taubes new book in the NY Times:

Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus - New York Times

 

[Buckeye]

Twaddle - I bought Taubes book but it's going to take awhile to get through since it's over 500 pages! I think it will be worth it.