Choosing to not have insurance

[Brat]

RandyMan65 is spot on!

 

[toofrugalformycat]

I agree with Hobo's sentiment in that 1) I/we didn't create the bogus health care system we have 2) I/we have little or no control over it 3) people getting paid millions/billions of dollars of year design a system that is currently geared towards maximizing profits at the expense of better care 4) I don't know what the solution is and wouldn't know how to implement it even if I did and 5) there is so much fraud in the system from both companies and patients gaming the system that the average hard-working person who needs to pay for everything out-of-pocket (or pays there own premium) is getting screwed.

1) We didn't create it, but we are responsible, in that the majority of us have chosen to vote for representatives who listen to industry lobbyists and fight reform
2) See #1. Have you contacted your reps yet? Who did you vote for?
3) agreed
4) Why can't we do what every other civilized country in the world has already done in some fashion? Why not the Swiss model as a first cut?
5) agreed

We all need to take responsibility. End of lecture.

 

[Hobo]

I think a salient point was specifically that Hobo explicitly advocates outright lying and cheating to avoid paying for medical services he consumes.

Absolutely wrong. My primary point is to put oneself in a position where they can choose to not pay for medical services they don't need. Why should I pay a doctor to write a prescription for thyroid hormone medicine when I do not have a thyroid? Should we all just roll over and pay whatever the doctor/ hospital/ pharmacy chooses to charge us?

There are certainly ways in which one can control the costs of living in a relatively safe, orderly society. I can choose to live in a house with lower property taxes to control how much I pay for police, fire, and education. I can structure my income in such a way that my income tax burden is reduced. And I can protect my legally in my house, my IRA or my 403(b). But what Hobo advocates is fraud. I suppose he'll next rebel against the corrupt fatcats at the Olive Garden and refuse to pay once his check arrives.

Look at the incongruity in your statement. You advocate taking advantage of every opportunity to control your cost of living, such as tax avoidance and choosing low cost options in your life. If we are hungry, both of us have the option of eating at the Olive Garden. I can go in, look at the menu, choose a cheap or expensive meal - all of these are my choice and I willingly pay the bill.

The doctor's office is the complete opposite. If I need medical care, the system gives me no choice. If I wanted something as simple as a deep splinter removed from my finger, the US gives me only one option... go to doctor's office and have a doctor remove it. There is no effort to save costs. A nurse can't do the job. The doctor will use a "single-use minor surgery packet" which contains many instruments the doctor doesn't need. You will be charged extra for the use of the doctor's surgical room because it is equipped with all the latest high-tech equipment. Then I will be given a pharmacy prescription and perhaps a tetanus shot. The bill will certainly be in excess of $500.

This is my only option; other than staying at home and having my wife dig the splinter out with an Exacto knife.

I have no option like going to nurse's office in a pharmacy. Someone who is set up to take care of small medical problems such as safely and inexpensively remove a splinter, stitch up a cut, write a prescription for an antibiotic, check out a sick kid, etc. - and pay a bill of maybe $50. Our medical expenses are so expensive because we, as a nation, think the doctor's office or the hospital are the best in the world... and the only way we can recover from an illness. This notion is flat wrong!

BTW, everything I suggested to make me appear poor are perfectly legal providing you execute them properly. My approach is no more of a fraud than your use of the tax code to your best advantage.

 

[randyman65]

BTW, everything I suggested to make me appear poor are perfectly legal providing you execute them properly.

Umm, no they are not. You advocated fraud. I advocated keeping my income low enough that I was not in group which is/will be taxed at a higher rate. I did not advocate hiding assets off shore. I did not advocate the theft of services. And I certainly did not advocate impersonating anther individual (perhaps construed as identity theft?) with the express intent of the theft of services.

If you truly don't value the quality or quantity of the medical services in this country, some of which are spectacularly good and well priced, others not as much, then don't avail yourslef of them. No one is decrying your right to remove yourself from the healthcare system in the US. What I - and others - have found most repugnant is your stated intent to use these services for which you have no intention of paying simply because you're cheap and you feel others should pay for the care you don't wish to.

You're certainly welcome to avail yourself of the care available in other countries at typically more affordable rates. Of course, you don't expect to use those services for free. You could also receive a modicum of medical education to be able to remove your own splinter. But thats not the choice you have made.

 

[Hobo]

You're certainly welcome to avail yourself of the care available in other countries at typically more affordable rates. Of course, you don't expect to use those services for free. You could also receive a modicum of medical education to be able to remove your own splinter. But thats not the choice you have made.

Just to push this topic along, I am curious if you are satisfied with US health care system. Setting aside my feelings (and actions) for the moment, do you see any flaws in the current system of employer provided insurance, the way insurance companies do business, or the system where doctors and hospitals have a monopoly on how health care is delivered?

The original post of this threat talked about a man who decided to take complete control of his health care by avoiding insurance companies and negotiating with doctors face to face. He obviously saw problems with the health care system.

Do you have enough experience with the system to form a valid judgment? In other words, have you had any serious illnesses that allow you to see what is right and what is wrong?

As an example of what I am talking about, I have met many people who think credit cards are great. It's not until someone has mischarged you or stollen your identity that you can really see how poorly they function when you need them on your side.

 

[teejayevans]

Just to push this topic along, I am curious if you are satisfied with US health care system.

It comes down to 2 kinds groups of people:
1. You work for a company and have group coverage for which you pay very little, you're probably pretty happy and are scared the govt is going to screw it up.
2. You work for a very small company with no health care coverage, or you are out of work trying to deal with the insurance companies on a individual basis. All the horror stories are in this category.

Group 1 is happy, group 2 is not. I've been in both groups, so I know.
TJ

 

[ERD50]

It comes down to 2 kinds groups of people:
1. You work for a company and have group coverage for which you pay very little, you're probably pretty happy and are scared the govt is going to screw it up.
2. You work for a very small company with no health care coverage, or you are out of work trying to deal with the insurance companies on a individual basis. All the horror stories are in this category.

Group 1 is happy, group 2 is not. I've been in both groups, so I know.
TJ

It overstates it to say group # 1 is happy, IMO. There are many people *in* group #1 who are smart enough to realize they could end up in group #2. So not so happy.

-ERD50

 

[Hobo]

It comes down to 2 kinds groups of people:
1. You work for a company and have group coverage for which you pay very little, you're probably pretty happy and are scared the govt is going to screw it up.
2. You work for a very small company with no health care coverage, or you are out of work trying to deal with the insurance companies on a individual basis. All the horror stories are in this category.

Group 1 is happy, group 2 is not. I've been in both groups, so I know.
TJ

Group 1 may be superficially happy. Either "ignorance is bliss" or "I know we have problems but I choose ignore them". Either way, the fundamental rule for a democracy to function properly is the need for an informed public. This issue is very much on the table now and anybody who is thinking of retiring early should have a well-informed opinion. Right now all I read about is health care programs that are long at giving more people health insurance, but short on cutting expenses.

From the looks of things, the special interests which collectively make up the health care system, are making every effort to make sure they keep their portion of a big, fat, expensive pie.

If more people are covered by some type of government sponsored program, without a significant effort to cut costs, we are going to have a very expensive government entitlement system piled on to a rapidly growing national debt.

The US is a power house economy, but every economy has its limits. This health care issue may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Even Group 1 should be worried about that - it doesn't bode well for future of the country where most people in this forum hope to someday retire.

 

[teejayevans]

It overstates it to say group # 1 is happy, IMO. There are many people *in* group #1 who are smart enough to realize they could end up in group #2. So not so happy.

-ERD50

I'm going to guess that most people in group 1 aren't looking that far
into the future, I based this on the numerous polls showing the lack
of savings by most american workers.
TJ

 

[samclem]

Polls indicate 80+% of Americans are happy with their health insurance. I just think that's a little misleading.

"I hate this job--the work is terrible, I am underpaid and there's no future here. I want to leave, but I can't now that my husband has diabetes and I might not be able to get coverage. My health care coverage is good here."

So, this gets recorded as a "satisfied with medical insurance" when clearly she does not like the results of the present system.

"Sir, a report from below decks. We've done a quick poll and the galley slaves are satisfied they are getting sufficient exercise. No need to ask more questions I suppose, eh, if morale is that good?!"

 

[unclemick]

12 years no health insurance.

The dog pee'd on my Passport.

As time has marched on - now over age 65 and time in the market via balanced index funds allows Medicare supplemental insurance.

Interesting thread.



heh heh heh - you do know that after George Washington put down the Whisky Rebellion and the non taxpayers fled Pennsylvania to Kentucky - it took a while to get NASCAR respectible with legit drivers. .

 

[lets-retire]

Perhaps if the government took reasonable steps to implement programs that have the effect of reigning in the costs of health care it would be much more affordable for people to buy. Perhaps if they took that approach and were moderately successful more people would be supportive of legislation that looks to have a component that could lead to the complete take over of the health care system by the government. Perhaps if the government didn't make it illegal for people to not spend their money more people would support changes.

 

[Gone4Good]

For me, the main medical risk is being hit by a bus or cab, or falling off my bike. But even if I bought a policy, there are no guarantees that the insurance company would pay, that it wouldn't try to weasel out of the obligation.

This is my main fear now that I'm looking into buying an individual health insurance policy. I wonder what exactly I'm paying for and whether the insurance company will actually stand up to a large claim when the time comes. Unfortunately, there is no way to know in advance. That is a huge problem in my view.

So what good is insurance you can't be sure will pay a big claim? How much should I be willing to pay for that insurance?