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Old 04-19-2012, 11:10 AM   #41
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FWIW -- longevity is not the same as healthy. The final years of an obese person's life will not be the same as that of an active, healthy person. (At the same time, it is true that a small percentage of the obese can be metabolically healthy.)
I take issue with the "will not" part of this statement. No way to tell. The final years of an obese person could be happily spent stuffing their faces while watching Dr. Phil until zap! Massive heart attack. On the other hand the healthy active person could sink into a long battle with cancer, Alzheimers, or whatever, and spend their last years suffering. No way to tell. I suspect if you want to play the odds, healthy and active is a much better choice. But people tend to forget that some things just aren't ours to control.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:07 PM   #42
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The Met Life table only goes up to 6'4". Does that mean I can weigh as much as I want since I am off the chart?
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:15 PM   #43
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The Met Life table only goes up to 6'4". Does that mean I can weigh as much as I want since I am off the chart?
Yes. I suggest ridiculously large quantities of chocolate.

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Old 04-19-2012, 02:23 PM   #44
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I take issue with the "will not" part of this statement. No way to tell. The final years of an obese person could be happily spent stuffing their faces while watching Dr. Phil until zap! Massive heart attack. On the other hand the healthy active person could sink into a long battle with cancer, Alzheimers, or whatever, and spend their last years suffering. No way to tell. I suspect if you want to play the odds, healthy and active is a much better choice. But people tend to forget that some things just aren't ours to control.
The good news is, there really isn't another sensible choice...

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Old 04-19-2012, 02:46 PM   #45
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I haven't read the whole thread, but as far as women are concerned, to me, it makes sense that overweight women have less problems with osteoporosis since estrogen plays a big role in this disease. (My layman understanding is that overweight women have more estrogen - estrone (old person's estrogen past menopause) within their fat cells or something like that. Skinny women have less since they have less fat.) But this type of estrogen can be a cause of breast cancer too (overweight women on no hormone therapy can have tons of this bad estrogen.)

I am not sure if my understanding is a mainstream theory or not, but it's something I am sticking with.

What are the risk factors for breast cancer?
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Being overweight or obese: Being overweight or obese is linked to a higher risk of breast cancer, especially for women after change of life or if the weight gain took place during adulthood. But the link between weight and breast cancer risk is complex. The risk seems to be higher if the extra fat is around the waist.
Menopause, Estrogen, hormones, hormone replacement therapy, HRT, progesterone, menstrual cycles, sex, sexual development, reproductive system

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At menopause the ovaries stop producing estrogen. However, the other sources continue to produce estrogen. But the total quantity available to the body is much smaller as the major contributor to the estrogen production, viz., ovaries, are not producing anymore. The important point to remember is that due to these other sources, the body does not just stop producing estrogen at menopause. Also, because of the estrogen converted by androgens in fat cells, over- weight women may suffer less from menopause-related problems, such as hot flashes and osteoporosis, which are related to estrogen depletion. Yet they can be more at risk for diseases that have been linked to estrogen output, such as endometrial and breast cancer. Researchers have shown that because overweight woman have less of the protein SHBG (sex hormone-binding globulin) which serves as a carrier for estrogen, less estrogen is bound to SHBG. Therefore more estrogen remains more active or potent within their systems.
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:40 PM   #46
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DW is 56 and weighs 116 with a BMI of 21.75. She has osteopenia and started doing strength training 6 years ago when it was first diagnosed. Kept it in check until 2 years ago when bone density slipped a little so she kept up the strength training and added Actonel, once per month. Bone density scan 2 weeks ago and density has actually incresed.
That is great to hear that your DW's density actually increased. I am going to continue the strength training and do a better job taking my calcium.

I would not care if I were to put on a little weight, except it seems to go straight to my belly, which is the dangerous area. I hate the way it looks too and would never be caught wearing that above outfit with a muffin top showing that way!
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:41 PM   #47
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Thanks for the compliment - -it is me in 1974, back in Hawaii. That is the happiness of youth with my whole life ahead of me, not the happiness of the newly retired. Had I known how much fun retirement is, and how long it would be until I could retire, maybe I would have looked a little glum.
That is a very lovely picture!
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:56 PM   #48
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Studies are done on large groups and the results if interpreted correctly only apply to populations as a whole. Applying a finding from a study to an individual is folly. They show trends, not absolutes.

Additionally, your personal experience/observations are not scientific. Just because you haven't seen 90 year old fat women, for instance, doesn't mean they don't' exist.

Fat folks tend to die younger than non fat folks. Not necessarily because they are fat, however. They die from complications of the lifestyle that makes them fat. Not all fat people live a lifestyle that results in those complications. Those individuals can and do live as long as people that aren't fat. They might even live longer.

The study that started this thread seems to be saying being fat is not bad for you. The lifestyle that makes many people fat (poor diet, overeating and being sedintary) is bad for you. Some fat people do not live that lifestyle and therefore are at no more risk of dying that thin folks.

Studies like this need to be taken for what they are. This one doesn't mean being fat is a good thing, just that some fat people are still healthy and they can expect a lifespan similar to thin people. I didn't read it, but does it address quality of that life? If not, then those healthy fat people might suffer from other issues that don't affect lifespan. Knee and back issues, mobility issues, etc.

Honestly, I think the worst thing about these studies and health care in general anymore is we are not treated as individuals. We belong to some group and are treated that way. Not just in the manner of care, but in how we feel about it. Just in this thread people have indicated preferences in their desire to live long or not. I'm from the enjoy it while you got it camp. I'd rather die at 65 from a heart attack and enjoy life along they way, than live till I'm 95 but spend my life constantly denying myself.

I like to eat and I am OK being fat. I might die young, but I am healthy and every test they take confirms that. That should be OK. I should be able to make that choice. It's my life and my body I should be able to do what I want with it, study or no.
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Old 04-19-2012, 06:49 PM   #49
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Fat folks tend to die younger than non fat folks. Not necessarily because they are fat, however. They die from complications of the lifestyle that makes them fat. Not all fat people live a lifestyle that results in those complications. Those individuals can and do live as long as people that aren't fat. They might even live longer.

The study that started this thread seems to be saying being fat is not bad for you. The lifestyle that makes many people fat (poor diet, overeating and being sedentary) is bad for you. Some fat people do not live that lifestyle and therefore are at no more risk of dying that thin folks.

Studies like this need to be taken for what they are. This one doesn't mean being fat is a good thing, just that some fat people are still healthy and they can expect a lifespan similar to thin people. I didn't read it, but does it address quality of that life? If not, then those healthy fat people might suffer from other issues that don't affect lifespan. Knee and back issues, mobility issues, etc.

Honestly, I think the worst thing about these studies and health care in general anymore is we are not treated as individuals. We belong to some group and are treated that way. Not just in the manner of care, but in how we feel about it. Just in this thread people have indicated preferences in their desire to live long or not. I'm from the enjoy it while you got it camp. I'd rather die at 65 from a heart attack and enjoy life along they way, than live till I'm 95 but spend my life constantly denying myself.

I like to eat and I am OK being fat. I might die young, but I am healthy and every test they take confirms that. That should be OK. I should be able to make that choice. It's my life and my body I should be able to do what I want with it, study or no.
I agree with you. The study does not address "quality of life." This usually winds up being a catch-all for the investigators prejudices- like we don't like fat people, therefore they must be unhealthy. Otherwise, the balance of our universe is threatened. At many places in society, there is almost a visceral loathing of overweight people. It is one of the last safe prejudices, and people need prejudices to maintain their tenuous self respect.

I do not myself like to be overweight. I likely associate it with the pain of trying to make weight for sports. But I respect others who are different- fat men are often very strong, and surprisingly quick. Most of them could knock the crap out of me, and a man typically sets some store by this. And fat women are hot, as long as being overweight does not destroy their self confidence. Who wants a woman who looks like a boy or man?

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Old 04-19-2012, 07:38 PM   #50
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Me, I prefer "Strong = beautiful," no matter the weight.

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IAnd fat women are hot, as long as being overweight does not destroy their self confidence. Who wants a woman who looks like a boy or man?

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Old 04-19-2012, 08:11 PM   #51
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Wooooo hooooo...break out the pizza and Buffalo chicken wings and beer.

I am considered "overweight" at 5'6" and weighing in at 183 lbs, but my fitness level has always been good except between 1994-97 when I had to give up my favorite sports (volleyball, raquetball, softball, tennis) due to carpal tunnel and upper body RSI issues. I lost muscle mass and gained way too much flab weight during those years.
My bone density tests 3 years and 1 year ago showed very good results, a result of a lifetime of physical activity of all kinds.
I am 53 now and staring menopause right in the face. I am looking at any kind of activity (strength building and aerobic) I can manage without further injury to my hands and wrists. I am rebuilding my muscular system bit by bit and feeling great.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:17 PM   #52
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"It is one of the last safe prejudices"

+1

And the viewpoint is usu. justified with some phalanx of health claims. Maintaining health is good, right? So nobody can assail my prejudice... because fat people compromise their own health.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:02 PM   #53
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Something to ask may be: Why are these people who exercise regularly and eat 5+ servings of fruits vegetables each day still obese?

The study is interesting, but a little messy since it groups not-smoking together with eating a lot of veggies.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:57 PM   #54
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Something to ask may be: Why are these people who exercise regularly and eat 5+ servings of fruits vegetables each day still obese?

The study is interesting, but a little messy since it groups not-smoking together with eating a lot of veggies.
Why is that messy? the study is not trying to find the cause of overweight and obesity, or poor health. It simply asks, given certain simple health habits, will overweight and obese people as a group have normal longevity? And this study finds, yes, they will.

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Old 04-19-2012, 11:55 PM   #55
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Why is that messy? the study is not trying to find the cause of overweight and obesity, or poor health. It simply asks, given certain simple health habits, will overweight and obese people as a group have normal longevity? And this study finds, yes, they will.

Ha
Maybe. For example, eating veggies is equivalent to not smoking in this study. The 5+ servings thing is a number pulled out of the air by the produce industry. It isn't a scientific finding. The health benefits of not smoking are clearcut and there's lots of evidence involved.

I guess I just prefer a study with one simple independent variable. Mortality versus smoking: simple. Mortality versus smoking, eating, exercise, drinking, and BMI: messy.
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:13 AM   #56
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Maybe. For example, eating veggies is equivalent to not smoking in this study. The 5+ servings thing is a number pulled out of the air by the produce industry. It isn't a scientific finding. The health benefits of not smoking are clearcut and there's lots of evidence involved.

I guess I just prefer a study with one simple independent variable. Mortality versus smoking: simple. Mortality versus smoking, eating, exercise, drinking, and BMI: messy.
More complicated perhaps, but so is life. Anyway, this addresses a completely different question from "is smoking bad for your health, or is exercise good for longevity?"-the answers to which which everyone already knows. If I were overweight or obese, it would be a question that I would be interested in, as these habits are all possible, if not, as in the case of not smoking, necessarily easy.

On the other hand, simple observation proves that for the great majority of people, losing weight and keeping it off is far from easy, and may not even be possible.

Ha
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:13 AM   #57
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... ridiculously large quantities of chocolate.
That's absolutely, completely, and irrevocably wrong.

The correct statement is "large quantities of chocolate". I take my chocolate seriously. There's nothing ridiculous about it!
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:54 AM   #58
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That's absolutely, completely, and irrevocably wrong.

The correct statement is "large quantities of chocolate". I take my chocolate seriously. There's nothing ridiculous about it!
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:28 AM   #59
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That's absolutely, completely, and irrevocably wrong.

The correct statement is "largesatisfying quantities of chocolate". I take my chocolate seriously. There's nothing ridiculous about it!
Now we can all be as subjective about the amount as we want
Chocolate: The Fifth Food Group!
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:33 AM   #60
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Chocolate: The Fifth Food Group!
You mean alongside the classic four: fat, sugar, caffeine and alcohol?
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