GM Suspends Dividend Payments..........

[al_bundy]

i priced out a Vibe and a Matrix a few years ago. The Matrix was cheaper even if i used my GM card points to help with the Vibe. same options

 

[rs0460a]

For all you that are bagging on GM, do you actually own a GM car?

I'm not going to get on the argument against US badged cars vs. non-US (Euro or Far East) vehicles, but in answer to the question:

Currently have 4 vehicles (DW-2, me-2)

Hers:
- 2001 Chevy Impala (purchased new)
- 2002 Olds Auroa (1 owner used)

Mine:
- 2002 Ford Mustang GT vert (purchased new)
- 2005 Cadillac SRX (1 owner used)

With all four cars, I've never had a single "non-normal" maintenance problem.

Oh BTW, the last car we got rid of was an '89 Olds Ciera, drove for 18 years (well over 100k miles) and never had a problem other than normal maintenance.

Not to say that a "US" badge is superior, but just to say that some of us still buy "domestically". Yes, I still remember the early "Jap trash" of the early '70's, but then all vehicles (regardless of where they were made - I had a '71 Vega ) had problems.

Why do I still buy "American made"? Just my age (since I'm an early boomer).

Just my comments on the discussion at hand.

- Ron

 

[Art G]

Sorry, but you all are victims of the hype machine. Believe me, I spent many years in the auto industry and heard time and again from the car snobs who buy a BMW or Volvo because of what they read in a car magazine, even though after driving the Cadillac, they could feel the superior ride. I challenge anyone to convince me that a 300 series BMW is a better car than a Caddy CTS. Not even close in ride!
I'd bet that I've owned more cars over the last 20 years than any of you, and while the Japanese cars have had solid engines, I can't tell you how many times the cheap plastic parts inside the car have broken off.
Sorry, but this is a really big pet peeve of mine.
Basing your decision on rental cars?? You mean the cars that are base models driven by people who do nothing to care for the cars, use inferior gasoline because it's cheaper, and drive them like they would never drive their own vehicles?
I've dealt with customer service problems, gone to too many ride and drives, and compared side by side. For overall value, give me the American built car.

 

[Milton]

Believe me, I spent many years in the auto industry and heard time and again from the car snobs who buy a BMW or Volvo because of what they read in a car magazine, even though after driving the Cadillac, they could feel the superior ride. I challenge anyone to convince me that a 300 series BMW is a better car than a Caddy CTS. Not even close in ride!

"Superior ride" is somewhat subjective. I've never driven (let alone) owned either make, but would imagine that most BMW suspensions are probably stiffer than most Cadillacs? In any case, there is far more to any vehicle than the quality of the "ride".

I'd bet that I've owned more cars over the last 20 years than any of you

I'm sure you're right. I've only owned two cars in that period (both Toyotas) ... I haven't needed more.

I've dealt with customer service problems, gone to too many ride and drives, and compared side by side. For overall value, give me the American built car.

You are entitled to your opinion, and should definitely base that opinion on your personal experience.

My own experience has been that Japanese cars offer excellent quality and value, so I'm not tempted to try anything different ... particularly when American cars are union-made (I never choose a union-made product, when I have a choice).

 

[Texas Proud]

Sorry, but you all are victims of the hype machine. Believe me, I spent many years in the auto industry and heard time and again from the car snobs who buy a BMW or Volvo because of what they read in a car magazine, even though after driving the Cadillac, they could feel the superior ride. I challenge anyone to convince me that a 300 series BMW is a better car than a Caddy CTS. Not even close in ride!.

It is according to what you mean by 'ride'.... if you are talking about driving on the edge of the limit of your tires... the BMW wins hands down... the CTS is a 'luxury' car... and the ride is 'softer'...

I can tell you that my Acura TL can out handle a CTS (but the V8 version is faster than mine).... and my ride is very nice... could I beat a BMW on curves? I don't know... but I doubt I could all else being the same...

NOW, I don't know why someone would want to buy a BMW because of the PRICE and their repair record.... wasn't even on my radar.. (BTW, the CTS was, just got beat out by the TL... maybe the newer one would win today, but I bought in 2004)...

 

[samclem]

Apparently, at Consumer Reports there's some kind of conspiracy going on against these American cars! Open the reliability ratings to the pages with the American cars and the page is filled with back ink indicating below average reliability. Go to the pages of the Asian car makers and the pages are largely red ink, indicating above average reliability. It is there in "black and red", visible to anyone who wants to look, and based on the actual experiences of the people who own these cars. Sure, each brand has a few especially good models and a few stinkers, but the overall trend is very clear. The American cars, in general, have poor reliability and quality compared to the Japanese, and even now the Korean, brands.

GM is reaping what they have sewn, and it is a sad day.

 

[Texas Proud]

....the Japanese cars have had solid engines, I can't tell you how many times the cheap plastic parts inside the car have broken off....

This is why I did not buy Japanese cars until recently.... just the sun visor was enough to keep me away.... they were very cheap thin plastic that would warp in the Texas heat... I bought a 95 Monte Carlo (and still have it) back then.... but the TL had it all IMO...

The newer cars are not the same... in fact, I would never have looked at a Hyundai... but they have gotten a lot of good press on their new and improved cars... and I went with a friend to test drive and was impressed... very nice cars... we will see if they hold up over the long term...

BTW, I did buy my BILs Explorer even though I swore off Fords.... my sister needed the money and I needed a family vehicle.... we will see if they can change my mind about Fords.... but probably not...

 

[Bestwifeever]

There is a cachet component imho. The car we drive all the time now is a very unsexy second-hand 11 year old Ford Escort in perfect condition with fabulous mileage--our kids would not be caught dead driving it. A friend drives an old Saab--guess who thinks his car is cool? I told him from the inside I can pretend my car is a Minicooper....

 

[omni550]

I know someone who has a 240Z sitting in their underground parking. He moved from the East Coast, lost the title and can't seem to get a new one. He'd sell the car for $2k, but you can't get license plates for the thing! The car has 32k miles on it. Not sure of the year.

If the owner wants to, he can get another title. Their state's version of the Secretary of State/Motor Vehicle Registration can do a title search and then contact the original owner to see if he wants the car. The owner would be able to get the title, but he would probably have to be there in person. If someone buys it, they would have to sit on it for a while for the title search to complete before they issued a new title.

 

[Art G]

Apparently, at Consumer Reports there's some kind of conspiracy going on against these American cars! Open the reliability ratings to the pages with the American cars and the page is filled with back ink indicating below average reliability. Go to the pages of the Asian car makers and the pages are largely red ink, indicating above average reliability. It is there in "black and red", visible to anyone who wants to look, and based on the actual experiences of the people who own these cars. Sure, each brand has a few especially good models and a few stinkers, but the overall trend is very clear. The American cars, in general, have poor reliability and quality compared to the Japanese, and even now the Korean, brands.

GM is reaping what they have sewn, and it is a sad day.

Find a different product in Consumer Reports that you feel you know quite a bit about and see if you agree with their assessment. What I've found is like AAA, Consumer Report is now an advertising tool. I've rarely agreed with their opinions, but so many use them to make their decision.

 

[Art G]

If the owner wants to, he can get another title. Their state's version of the Secretary of State/Motor Vehicle Registration can do a title search and then contact the original owner to see if he wants the car. The owner would be able to get the title, but he would probably have to be there in person. If someone buys it, they would have to sit on it for a while for the title search to complete before they issued a new title.

The original owner still owns the car. He's tried contacting his current state and the previous one, with no success. It's really a whacky situation. I'd love to own the car.

 

[Marquette]

Find a different product in Consumer Reports that you feel you know quite a bit about and see if you agree with their assessment. What I've found is like AAA, Consumer Report is now an advertising tool. I've rarely agreed with their opinions, but so many use them to make their decision.

Yeah! They didn't rate Dyson the best.

Oh wait... I owned a Dyson.

My friends disagree with CR because Dyson costs the most so it should be the best so CR is wrong.

But, all I need to do is buy a Caddy to get good build quality, ignore FD's first-hand accounts (he probably doesn't know what he's talking about anyway, he's in the financial business) and listen to the guy that's never lost money on a car and even makes money when he sells his cars.

I'm guessing the fact that I had all of the problems with my GM car that CR said I would, even though I experienced them before the CR reliability report came out, proves my recency bias and brainwashing.

I'm sure it's different this time, though.

 

[samclem]

What I've found is like AAA, Consumer Report is now an advertising tool. I've rarely agreed with their opinions, but so many use them to make their decision.

I doubt it. There are a lot of things I don't like about Consumer's Union (the folks who put out Consumer reports), but I don't suspect them of receiving kickbacks from companies for their recommendations. As you may know, they don't take any advertising. They also specifically prohibit companies from using references to "Consumer Reports" to sell their products, and they have taken companies to court over this (and won). So, do you think all those people who tell CU about their car repair experiences are lying?

Now, you did say that American cars offer good value. If your case is that they are not well built, fall apart at a higher overall rate than Japanese brands, but they are cheap enough that they are still a good value, that could be a defensible position. I think GM is now finding out just how much shoddy design, poor workmanship, and substandard components are going to cost their company.

 

[Texas Proud]

Find a different product in Consumer Reports that you feel you know quite a bit about and see if you agree with their assessment. What I've found is like AAA, Consumer Report is now an advertising tool. I've rarely agreed with their opinions, but so many use them to make their decision.

Since CR has NO advertising in their magazine and REFUSE to take any money from companies and also REFUSE to evaluate a product they do not buy in the open market.... and will take companies to court IF they try and use the CR ratings in their advertisements.... well, yea... it is an advertising tool....

 

[unclemick]

99 Chevy Silverado V6 1/2 ton traded in on a 2006 V6 Chevy Equinox - go back to a wimpy Toyota Corolla, I doubt it.

Now some falling knives even I don't try to catch - like GM stock.

Nor will I say never - on say maybe Toyota pickup.

heh heh heh -

 

[Midpack]

I for one, was contending that Honda's and Toyota's, not other countries or makes, are (still far) superior to any GM, Ford or Chrysler. I have owned a BMW and and Audi, great cars but nowhere near as reliable as Honda or Toyota and the BMW and Audi repair costs were ridiculous. My Dad owned a Mercedes, even more of a joke...

I hope buy an American car one day, but I am not giving them my money until they provide a remotely equal value. And unfortunately with their horrible but improving track record, they are going to have to establish a record for reliability before I will give them another chance.

 

[Marquette]

Now, CR is also stating that GM (and Ford) build quality is getting much better... I trust them on that as well.

 

[Marquette]

Since CR has NO advertising in their magazine and REFUSE to take any money from companies and also REFUSE to evaluate a product they do not buy in the open market.... and will take companies to court IF they try and use the CR ratings in their advertisements.... well, yea... it is an advertising tool....

If you give a large enough grant to the parent company then you get pick of the year ;-) And it's tax deductible too!

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Wow, stop reading this thread for a day or two and you miss the switcheroo over to why american cars suck.

Which they do. I think theres a huge perceptual issue with a lot of car owners about what constitutes a "problem" and once inured to a set of issues one considers them 'ordinary'.

I've found people who praise american cars as being relatively trouble free upon further questioning mention the leaky radiator, wheel trim rings that fell off, and the door handle that came off in their hand...you know...the stuff that always happens with cars.

After years of ridiculous brand swapping...lets see...ford/chevy/plymouth/ford/nissan/mercedes/mitsubishi/mazda/isuzu/ford/infinity/bmw/toyota/lexus/honda? I had nothing but trouble with every one except the nissan, mazda, isuzu, infinity, toyota, lexus and the honda.

Among the japanese cars, some owned for 7+ years and few for less than 2 years, not a thing fell off, rusted, sprung a leak or required even a significant warranty repair the entire time I owned them. My last Ford almost disintegrated with less than 50k miles on it.

I think the defining moment was when after almost 2 years of owning our honda, it occurred to me that I hadnt even opened the hood since the day I bought it, and I wasnt even 100% sure how big the motor was.

That was pretty amazing to me.

 

[Nords]

That was pretty amazing to me.

What's most amazing to me is that the success of Japanese automakers is based upon the teachings of Americans like Drucker and Deming... and maybe even Sloan. Aided by the American revolutions in computers and industrial manufacturing techniques.

So it's not as if American automakers were totally blindsided. They just had all the pieces in their hands and kept fumbling them.

 

[rs0460a]

A friend drives an old Saab--guess who thinks his car is cool?

Just a note -

Saab is "owned" by GM
Volvo (car) is "owned" by Ford

I suspect that some of the idea of the Swedes have been picked up by the US manufacturing folks.

My SRX has the dash from the Saab crossover. Rumor has it the "next" SRX will actually be the Saab (question on the Northstar - if offered).

Volvo (car) had given their CVT transmission (design) to the Ford line.

Just to comment that you have a lot of transfer of ideas being picked up by the Euro manufactures to the US design.

Hey, Nissan is partly owned by Renualt (car) and even has a Renault guy (Carlos Ghosn) as president (although I believe he's originally from Brazil). When you look at the Nissan Murano, you will note the styling input from the folks at Renault.

You have a lot of "mixing" of model/ideas/sourcing all around the globe these days.

- Ron

 

[mb]

What's most amazing to me is that the success of Japanese automakers is based upon the teachings of Americans like Drucker and Deming... and maybe even Sloan. Aided by the American revolutions in computers and industrial manufacturing techniques.

So it's not as if American automakers were totally blindsided. They just had all the pieces in their hands and kept fumbling them.

In the early 90s I was working for a small company that was partnered with GM. We worked with a "team" of GM engineers, including a "quality engineer" and at one point he gave us a "course." This guy was pretty good and he included a lot of information on the things that GM was doing wrong and Toyota for example was doing right including all the philosophies and methods that Nords mentioned above.

At least on that level GM knew what they needed to do to build a better product and I think that they have actually implemented much of it and improved their quality by a huge amount since then (although I agree with most in that I don't think they are even with Toyota and Honda yet). The problems is just they dug themselves into such a deep hole (versus the Japanese) and then focused so much on large vehicles that now it is going to be really tough getting out.

CA is frequently a leader in these sort of trends and in CA the US big 3 now have a market share of less than 20%. Not a good omen for the future of the big 3.

MB

 

[Moemg]

Just read this thread and I have to say I bought a Geo prism in 1994. I gave it to my daughter in 1998 and the thing is still running . Of course it's a GM body but a toyota engine . My cousin has a Toyota SUV that has 300,000 miles on it and looks like new and runs great .

 

[al_bundy]

In the early 90s I was working for a small company that was partnered with GM. We worked with a "team" of GM engineers, including a "quality engineer" and at one point he gave us a "course." This guy was pretty good and he included a lot of information on the things that GM was doing wrong and Toyota for example was doing right including all the philosophies and methods that Nords mentioned above.

At least on that level GM knew what they needed to do to build a better product and I think that they have actually implemented much of it and improved their quality by a huge amount since then (although I agree with most in that I don't think they are even with Toyota and Honda yet). The problems is just they dug themselves into such a deep hole (versus the Japanese) and then focused so much on large vehicles that now it is going to be really tough getting out.

CA is frequently a leader in these sort of trends and in CA the US big 3 now have a market share of less than 20%. Not a good omen for the future of the big 3.

MB

6 or 7 years ago i read a WSJ article of how Ford hired a new quality control exec. he would go to plants and try to get people to change small things so they wouldn't go on disability or to increase the percentage of cars that came off the line that would go straight to dealers instead of having to be fixed. Toyota and Honda it's less than 10% and Big 3 something like 75% of cars need to be fixed before going to dealers.

he was told they like doing it this way and that making better cars would cost jobs

 

[clifp]

Having recently spent $1500 to replace 3 component of an AC on Accura, 5 months after the warranty expired, I am not going to bash American cars. Mostly cause I have not owned one since 1982.

One thing I have read (in Consumer Reports even) is that is that reliability and service of all cars has increased dramatically over the last few decades. The problem is as Detroit catches up, Japan has run ahead. I don't know if the quality gap has widen or shrunk, but clearly the perception that American cars are junk persists, as we can see from this thread.