Roundabout Hate & Related investment Idea ?

[ownyourfuture]

Maybe you should just avoid the roundabouts, that way everyone would be safer and you would be less frustrated.

What an incredibly intelligent statement. Michael, you are a genius

 

[ownyourfuture]

Exactly, stoplights.

Thanks Jack

 

[ownyourfuture]

Another recent innovation (yes, I know roundabouts have been around a long time) is the "urban single point" interchange. They look like this:

and they work very well. We had one built at I-270 and Sawmill Parkway and it improved a pretty horrible interchange. They are now building them in a few other places around central Ohio.

Very interesting

 

[ScottRAB]

I saw the MythBusters episode too. Have they taken in account the adverse health effects of blood pressure elevation every time one approaches one of these? Not to mention the expense of reconstruction and the expense of the upkeep of the plantings in the center of these things. How can a pedestrian ever cross one of these if the traffic never stops?

I do not like them at all.

It's curious when people say this. It's curious because you clearly trust a signal more than a modern roundabout as a form of traffic control and your trust in misplaced. The safety of either depends on you and the other person obeying the rules, except that in a modern roundabout the typical operational speed is about 20 mph. Your chances of surviving a crash at 20 mph are over 90%, but drop really fast and go to nearly zero around 50 mph.

First cost is the wrong way to compare projects. It would be like buying a car without knowing the fuel economy or safety of the thing, just its price to buy.
Present Value Life Cycle Cost Analysis (LCCA) is the best way to compare two or more choices. When comparing modern roundabouts to signals for a 20-year life cycle (the standard period), modern roundabouts usually cost less. Costs to compare include: first cost (design/land/construction), operation and maintenance (electricity, re-striping, upgrades, etc.), crash reduction (what’s your/your family’s safety worth?), daily delay (what’s your time worth?), daily fuel consumption (spend much on gas?), point source pollution (generated by stopped vehicles = health cost), area insurance rates (this costs more where it is less safe to drive). Each of these things, and others, can be estimated for any two choices and everyone near or using the project area will pay some portion of all of these costs.

 

[ScottRAB]

My first encounter with a rotary was in the Boston area many years ago. Once I got unto it I got in the inner lane. Traffic was so heavy I couldn't get back into the outer lane to exit. Signaling did no good. I think I went around over 10 times before I escaped. My city has been putting them in like crazy. 5 years ago I don't think we had any. Now it is hard to plan a route to avoid them. I hadn't heard of the term "traffic circles" before but now I am seeing them sprout up in new housing developments, schools, and parks. I am guessing if it is one lane it is a circle and multi-lane is a roundabout/rotary? My problem is with people who don't yield and pull in front of you in the roundabout so you have to brake for them. People everywhere drive like their passenger is ready to give birth (do I sound old?). Anybody ever seen any statistics about accidents in roundabouts. Hopefully with slower speeds there will be fewer fatalities.

All modern roundabouts, regardless of number of circulating lanes, operate the same.
The rules for modern roundabouts have been the same for years, and are unlikely to change, since most of them are related to the signs and markings, so they are the same everywhere. Yield means prepare to stop, and do so if the cross street (left of entry in a North American roundabout) has oncoming traffic. A solid white line means you cannot change lanes. A skip line means you can. Pedestrians usually have the right of way at legal crossings if it's safe for them to start crossing.

Specific to Modern Roundabouts are these four rules for motorists:
1. Slow down,
2. Yield to pedestrians,
3. Look left and yield to drivers already in the circular roadway (all lanes if more than one),
4. Signal your exit (keeps things moving).

Signaling left until you’re ready to exit will also help motorists not jump in front as you go around. At a multi-lane modern roundabout, like any other multi-lane intersection, motorists should watch for the lane use signs that tell you which lane to be in based on where you want to go. Like other complex intersections, sometimes only the left lane can turn left, sometimes it can turn left and go through, and sometimes it can go left, through or right. With multi-lane roundabouts entering drivers should yield to all lanes approaching them and not change lanes inside the roundabout. Single lane modern roundabouts are a lot simpler than signals and modern roundabouts work the same even when the power is out.
Picture diagrams from the MUTCD: http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part3/part3c.htm

 

[pb4uski]

In Portland one lane roundabouts are being used as traffic calming tools in residential areas wit a lot of commuter traffic. Works well for that purpose however multi-lane roundabouts are a nightmare IMHO.

Ours are one-lane and work well. I'm familiar with multi-lane roundabouts and concede they are much trickier.

 

[ScottRAB]

Pedestrian Safety at Modern Roundabouts

How can a pedestrian ever cross one of these if the traffic never stops?

All modern roundabouts have median islands separating incoming and outgoing auto traffic. Pedestrians don't have to find a gap in two directions of traffic, just one. This is safer for pedestrians, especially for younger or older ones, because they only have to concentrate on one direction of traffic at a time. This is what is meant by two-phase. Cross the first half, pause if you need to, then cross the second half. On multi-lane crossings pedestrian beacons or signals are often added if the auto (or pedestrian) traffic is too numerous. The signals can also be two phase, requiring the pedestrian to push a second button when they get to the median. The median can also have a Z path to reorient the pedestrian to view oncoming traffic. Also, the signals usually rest in off, so they are only activated if a pedestrian needs the help crossing. This way only motorists that need to stop are delayed.

Modern roundabouts are the safest form of intersection in the world.
The safety comes from the ‘slow and go’ operation instead of the ‘stop or go fast’ way a stop light works. The smaller size of properly designed modern roundabouts is what makes them safer and keeps speeds in the 20 mph (30 kph) range. This makes it much easier to avoid a crash or stop for pedestrians. It also means that if a crash happens the likelihood of injury is very low.
Safety is the #1 reason there are over 3,200 modern roundabouts in the US today and many more on the way.

 

[ScottRAB]

Know your circular intersections.

In Portland one lane roundabouts are being used as traffic calming tools in residential areas wit a lot of commuter traffic. Works well for that purpose however multi-lane roundabouts are a nightmare IMHO.

Portland, Oregon, has only three modern roundabouts. One at Lewis and Clark College (Terwilliger/Palater), one at Airport long term parking, and one at the end of Yacht Harbor Drive. Everything else is a neighborhood traffic circle. Portland hasn't built any new neighborhood traffic circles in over ten years.
Many people confuse other and older styles of circular intersections with modern roundabouts. East coast rotaries, large multi-lane traffic circles (Arc D’Triomphe, Dupont Circle), and small neighborhood traffic circles are not modern roundabouts. If you want to see the difference between a traffic circle, a rotary (UK roundabout) and a modern roundabout (UK continental roundabout), go to http://tinyurl.com/kstate-RAB to see pictures. And here’s another site that shows the difference between an older rotary and a modern roundabout: http://tinyurl.com/bzf7qmg

 

[W2R]

All modern roundabouts have median islands separating incoming and outgoing auto traffic. Pedestrians don't have to find a gap in two directions of traffic, just one. This is safer for pedestrians, especially for younger or older ones, because they only have to concentrate on one direction of traffic at a time. This is what is meant by two-phase. Cross the first half, pause if you need to, then cross the second half. On multi-lane crossings pedestrian beacons or signals are often added if the auto (or pedestrian) traffic is too numerous. The signals can also be two phase, requiring the pedestrian to push a second button when they get to the median. The median can also have a Z path to reorient the pedestrian to view oncoming traffic. Also, the signals usually rest in off, so they are only activated if a pedestrian needs the help crossing. This way only motorists that need to stop are delayed.

Modern roundabouts are the safest form of intersection in the world.
The safety comes from the ‘slow and go’ operation instead of the ‘stop or go fast’ way a stop light works. The smaller size of properly designed modern roundabouts is what makes them safer and keeps speeds in the 20 mph (30 kph) range. This makes it much easier to avoid a crash or stop for pedestrians. It also means that if a crash happens the likelihood of injury is very low.
Safety is the #1 reason there are over 3,200 modern roundabouts in the US today and many more on the way.

Hi ScottRAB, and welcome to the Early Retirement Forum.

I notice that all four of your posts (or is it five now?) so far have been rapidly posted in this one thread about roundabouts. Please introduce yourself to our members in the "Hi, I Am" part of the forum, so we can get to know you a little bit. Thanks.

 

[ScottRAB]

Modern Roundabout Safety

Anybody ever seen any statistics about accidents in roundabouts. Hopefully with slower speeds there will be fewer fatalities.

Modern roundabouts are the safest form of intersection in the world (much more so than comparable signals). Visit http://tinyurl.com/iihsRAB for modern roundabout FAQs and safety facts. Modern roundabouts, and the pedestrian refuge islands approaching them, are two of nine proven safety measures identified by the FHWA,http://tinyurl.com/7qvsaem
The FHWA has a video about modern roundabouts on Youtube, or check out the IIHS video (iihs dot org).

http://priceonomics.com/the-case-for-more-traffic-roundabouts/

 

[Jack_Pine]

Modern roundabouts are the safest form of intersection in the world (much more so than comparable signals). Visit http://tinyurl.com/iihsRAB for modern roundabout FAQs and safety facts. Modern roundabouts, and the pedestrian refuge islands approaching them, are two of nine proven safety measures identified by the FHWA,http://tinyurl.com/7qvsaem
The FHWA has a video about modern roundabouts on Youtube, or check out the IIHS video (iihs dot org).

http://priceonomics.com/the-case-for-more-traffic-roundabouts/

Have read all your posts. They are only safe if people know what to do in them. It has not been my experience and have used them a lot. YMMV

 

[ScottRAB]

Have read all your posts. They are only safe if people know what to do in them. It has not been my experience and have used them a lot. YMMV

Have you been in a crash before? Have you been in a crash in modern roundabout?

 

[W2R]

Have you been in a crash before? Have you been in a crash in modern roundabout?

I've sure seen plenty of crashes in roundabouts (though they might not meet your personal definition of "a modern roundabout", but then I am not a "modern person" and have seen crashes regularly on them for some time). They aren't pretty.


Thank you for responding in the "Hi, I am" section.

 

[ScottRAB]

Modern Roundabout Safety

I've sure seen plenty of crashes in roundabouts (though they might not meet your personal definition of "a modern roundabout", but then I am not a "modern person" and have seen crashes regularly on them for some time). They aren't pretty.
Thank you for responding in the "Hi, I am" section.

Modern roundabouts are a very specific subset of the world of circular intersections. They are low speed, usually not operating over 20 mph. You have to slow down to enter the circular roadway (deflection). All entering traffic has to yield to all traffic in every lane of the circular roadway.
Here’s a quote:
Captain Jeremy Geiger with the Minnesota State Patrol says, "We will respond to property damage crashes all day, as long as we don't have to see the serious injury and fatal crashes. That's the goal of the roundabouts."

 

[aaronc879]

Have you been in a crash before? Have you been in a crash in modern roundabout?

I haven't been in one yet since i'm a very good defensive driver but i've been close many times. There were 5-6 accidents in one of the "modern roundabouts" when it was first put in a couple years ago. Too many people don't yield. They go right thru at 30+ mph.

 

[jazz4cash]

OK, I don't like this as a premise for buying GT stock, but if OP is really adamant, maybe a tire retailer.

As for roundabouts, they have taken over here in the MD suburbs of DC and I hate, hate, hate them. Keep in mind traffic circles are very common in DC proper where I grew up and learned to drive. Folks from out of town always cursed them and frequently complained that they couldn't figure out how to get out of the circle once they got in.

These new "roundabouts" which is a term I only know from the New England area are terrible for a number of reasons. They are typically too small and there is insufficient visibility between vehicles already in the circle and vehicles that are just entering. That means you may have to stop before entering the circle because you can't tell what the other driver will do. They put these things willy nilly where they don't belong. We have one that was put at the end of an exit ramp of a divided highway. It was causing a backup onto the highway so they added a traffic signal!


In many instances they have dual roundabouts on either side of of a major intersection. There was one by the airport that was completely re-vamped within one year to eliminate both roundabouts (talk about waste). You can see from this thread people have different ideas of how to negotiate these things, especially if it is a new layout. The lack of signage can add to the confusion.


My theory is that this is a conspiracy by the construction contractors (my former customers) to scale up their contracts.

We have many single point interchanges as well. They do work well once you figure them out....better signage would help there as well.

 

[swakyaby]

Ok, I have no pride. Our city put 3 roundabouts in last year when previously there had been zero, that I noticed anyway. I think I know how they are supposed to work, but in a moment of inattention 3 months ago, I entered a roundabout and went right over the center median circle. When I put my car in for routine service, they had to do a realignment. No doubt due to going over a curb. Now I feel a bit of high anxiety entering a roundabout.

 

[48Fire]

I grew up in a small town, 15,000 people with a major roundabout, which intersected four major highways, so eight entries. It is so large that there is a church and the police station in the center. Cars could be 3 wide at times, but 2 was normal. The only issues are when people hesitate entering the roundabout, and then the person behind rear ends them. Also, the occasional white hair driving the wrong way. Either way I love them. Our driving training included teaching us how to enter, travel, and exit them.

 

[aaronc879]

I grew up in a small town, 15,000 people with a major roundabout, which intersected four major highways, so eight entries. It is so large that there is a church and the police station in the center. Cars could be 3 wide at times, but 2 was normal. The only issues are when people hesitate entering the roundabout, and then the person behind rear ends them. Also, the occasional white hair driving the wrong way. Either way I love them. Our driving training included teaching us how to enter, travel, and exit them.

Being hesitant is much better than not yielding. The person who rear ends the other person should have their license suspended.

 

[48Fire]

Being hesitant is much better than not yielding. The person who rear ends the other person should have their license suspended.

I agree, but the collision is at 10 or 15 mph - a minor fender bender, and not worthy of a license suspension. The nice thing about roundabouts is that they tend to mitigate the 45 mph tee bone collisions which can cause serious injury or death.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

We had a roundabout put in at a nearby intersection where a fairly busy local road meets a busy state highway. It replaced a basic stop sign.

Prior to the roundabout, the spot would average about one fatality a year. Once a guy pulled into the path of a bus carrying residents of an assisted living facility. The crash killed eight people.

There have been no deaths since the roundabout went in.

 

[48Fire]

We had a roundabout put in at a nearby intersection where a fairly busy local road meets a busy state highway. It replaced a basic stop sign.

Prior to the roundabout, the spot would average about one fatality a year. Once a guy pulled into the path of a bus carrying residents of an assisted living facility. The crash killed eight people.

There have been no deaths since the roundabout went in.

+1, as a minimum, they slow down the traffic

 

[Gumby]

People IN the roundabout have the right of way. Coming into the roundabout must yield.

As with many other things, this is not universal. I drive into Hartford every weekday around Pulaski Circle. All the entrances must yield to traffic in the circle, except the people coming in on the Whitehead Highway (Exit 29A off of I-91), who have the right of way on entering. People in the circle regularly blow by the yield sign at that point and it is very dangerous.

I'm also very familiar with the traffic circle in Flemington NJ, where Rte. 31, Rte 12 and Rte 202 come together. The people entering the circle on Rte 202 always have the right of way over the people in the circle. The people entering on 12 and 31, however, must yield to traffic in the circle.

 

[karen1972]

I know Wisconsin is peppered with them now. My sister-in-law works at the 911 center and is a huge fan as there are minor accidents at intersections now but not the T-bone type that causes death or disability... so she claims they are MUCH safer.

Now of course nothing is safe if people don't understand how to use them...and I know that causes issues. I can hope that people will get use to them and it will settle down.

Just be glad you don't have J-hooks. I call them like death traps, they are forcing you to make a U turn on the highway..with no graceful entry lane, your just "on" the highway. See how tiny the turn area is in the lower left hand corner.. btw, its a 65mph highway.

 

[Amethyst]

In MD we call the roundabout "circles" ["traffic calmers" are those horrid bumps that you have to walk your car over, and that I want to attack with a jackhammer] and they get mixed reviews. Small, single-lane circles cause few problems and are more popular than intersections with lights.

As lanes and exit choices are added, however, it gets harder for drivers to know when to enter, and which lane to enter. It can be scary for a timid driver who wants a completely clear entrance, and is getting honked-at by impatient drivers behind him.

At least with a light, you always know what to do, even if some people don't always obey.