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Old 05-29-2013, 09:23 PM   #61
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+1, but I would delete the word "probably."
With a lifetime of travel behind me, I firmly believe that the range of possible social environments is unlimited.

Here in the USA, you could even divide it in half along the Mississippi River and find the whole spectrum in each half.

IMHO there is no real reason to have to emigrate; those folks simply haven't taken the time to investigate the possibilities at home.
Yep, Denver and subrban Jersey might as well be different countries. The people I work with in Kansas City would be another country entirely.
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:27 PM   #62
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:28 PM   #63
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Ah. Find a community without any TV reception or cable service. That'll help.

And for those who do have cable, think of what happens when folks are raised seeing the residents of "Jersey Shore" or "Myrtle Manor" as successful people in life. They've got their own TV series, so they must be doing really well, right?
More disturbing to me is the fact that people watch, not that the programs are on...
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:20 PM   #64
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I do defer sometimes if they look like they are capable of kicking my butt even if I am in the right.
Thats an excellent strategy..........
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:08 AM   #65
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And for those who do have cable, think of what happens when folks are raised seeing the residents of "Jersey Shore" or "Myrtle Manor" as successful people in life. They've got their own TV series, so they must be doing really well, right?
I do believe there are people who view getting a reality show/winning the lottery as real career paths.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:15 PM   #66
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Lots of folks move abroad, for a variety of reasons. A small minority do so bec. of conspiracy theory!
I've read there are a lot of Americans in the Philippines not because it's better there, but because their dollars can buy more quality of life.
Similarly, retired folks live in Mexico, Costa Rica, Nicaragua , Panama and other
countries.

Life is still good in the United states, if one can afford it!
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:58 PM   #67
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I know a few people that after retirement started picking up on conspiracy theories - they did not follow them prior to retirement. One that I have known for over 20 years is pressing our friendship with the depth that he is taking with following and being so out spoken with the topic. He tries to avoid the topics with me, but sometimes just cannot constrain himself and I just have to remind him that our friendship is older than these theories... It always makes him backoff - at least around me. He picked them up through boredom in retirement and needing something to occupy his time and mind...
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:42 PM   #68
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I don't agree with everything done in the USA -- past or present -- but I contend that it is one of the best places to live on the earth. I think the USA embodies the MLK quote:

“The Arc of the Moral Universe Is Long, but It Bends Toward Justice”
Agree but we need to get rid of commercial driven trash tv, hyper consumerism, crime (we have the highest crime rate in the developed world and higher crime rate than china with almost 4x the us population), get to know our neighbors a bit more and have reasonable cost universally accessible health care.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:09 PM   #69
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Agree but we need to get rid of commercial driven trash tv, hyper consumerism, crime (we have the highest crime rate in the developed world and higher crime rate than china with almost 4x the us population), get to know our neighbors a bit more and have reasonable cost universally accessible health care.
I agree with you, but unfortunately it will never happen. Young vibrant cultures have none of the curses that we now have, although they can have their share of crime. But when the Marshall finds the miscreants, the jury convicts them and the judge sentences them to be hung by the neck.

Our society will get steadily worse, or worse in jumps and starts, no matter who says what to the contrary.

When we sentence someone to lethal injection, he lives on average another 14 or 15 years, costing a lot of trouble and money along the way.

I hear the optimists, and I respect their opinions. But civilization is a one-way street, and we done missed our turnoff.

Ha
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:30 PM   #70
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I agree with you, but unfortunately it will never happen. Young vibrant cultures have none of the curses that we now have, although they can have their share of crime. But when the Marshall finds the miscreants, the jury convicts them and the judge sentences them to be hung by the neck.

Our society will get steadily worse, or worse in jumps and starts, no matter who says what to the contrary.

When we sentence someone to lethal injection, he lives on average another 14 or 15 years, costing a lot of trouble and money along the way.

I hear the optimists, and I respect their opinions. But civilization is a one-way street, and we done missed our turnoff.

Ha
I have to agree with you, Ha, but I am a little more extreme in this area than you. I live in a rural area of guns rights and personally have one on the night stand myself. But in all honesty, I am fully cognizant I would be just as safe with a chicken feather on the night stand instead, as there is really no major crime and certainly no murders around my local residence. But if implementing a system of canning, amputations, and hangings would bring back "civil" in civilization, I would not be opposed at all; as I personally do not vandalize, murder, steal, or rape.
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:23 PM   #71
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How do you reconcile this view with the fact that per-capita crime has been dropping pretty steadily for 20 years?

The 24-hour media echo chamber makes it feel like things are going to heck-in-a-handbasket, but by most objective measures crime has been getting better since the early 90s.

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I agree with you, but unfortunately it will never happen. Young vibrant cultures have none of the curses that we now have, although they can have their share of crime. But when the Marshall finds the miscreants, the jury convicts them and the judge sentences them to be hung by the neck.

Our society will get steadily worse, or worse in jumps and starts, no matter who says what to the contrary.

When we sentence someone to lethal injection, he lives on average another 14 or 15 years, costing a lot of trouble and money along the way.

I hear the optimists, and I respect their opinions. But civilization is a one-way street, and we done missed our turnoff.

Ha
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:34 PM   #72
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How do you reconcile this view with the fact that per-capita crime has been dropping pretty steadily for 20 years?

The 24-hour media echo chamber makes it feel like things are going to heck-in-a-handbasket, but by most objective measures crime has been getting better since the early 90s.
I addressed crime because that was part of what was being talked about. It is not necessarily the most salient thing when discussing the health of a society.

I have read statements like yours, but I am not interested enough to really try to track things down. It might be exactly correct. If so, one possible explanation is that a big % of crime prone men spend a large part of their lives in prison. Three=strikes rules have to have made a difference. Ready access to abortions has also been mentioned. But all these things are loaded with controversy, and unless it is the major issue in someone's life, it would not rate the costs to figure out. Plenty of crime enough to keep me on my toes, even though Seattle overall is supposedly a low crime city.

Lastly, I need to make these sorts of statements reasonably often so that I don't lose my Get-Off-My-Lawn status to lesser practitioners. A man must protect his brand.

Ha
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:41 PM   #73
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My very favorite meme on this theme so far:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/peopl...e-of-obamacare

Unclear on the concept...
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:53 PM   #74
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My very favorite meme on this theme so far:

People Who Say They're Moving To Canada Because Of ObamaCare

Unclear on the concept...
If these are real they are filled with multiple misunderstandings, one being that you can't just move to Canada, you'll need a residency visa. Canada is a foreign country not the 51st state.
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:39 PM   #75
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What I find very interesting about the last 20 years of crime statistics is that they have dropped in pretty much every state, regardless of any particular state's policies. So it doesn't appear to be related in a meaningful way to gun laws, three=strike rules, Rudy's New York clean-up, improvements in policing, etc, since these policies are set state by state, and every state regardless of policies has seen a vast improvement. I guess there has probably been an overall trend to incarcerate that might have had an effect.

The nation-wide change in abortion is a possibility best left undiscussed here.

My favorite theory is that the drop in crime rate lags the phase-out of leaded gasoline by 15-20 years. Kids who grew up with the extra lead exposure committed more crimes when they reached the high-crime young adult years. There have been international studies that claim to be able to see this trend at varying times around the world, but I haven't dug into the studies themselves.

I'm hoping that I will always welcome kids on my lawn.

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I addressed crime because that was part of what was being talked about. It is not necessarily the most salient thing when discussing the health of a society.

I have read statements like yours, but I am not interested enough to really try to track things down. It might be exactly correct. If so, one possible explanation is that a big % of crime prone men spend a large part of their lives in prison. Three=strikes rules have to have made a difference. Ready access to abortions has also been mentioned. But all these things are loaded with controversy, and unless it is the major issue in someone's life, it would not rate the costs to figure out. Plenty of crime enough to keep me on my toes, even though Seattle overall is supposedly a low crime city.

Lastly, I need to make these sorts of statements reasonably often so that I don't lose my Get-Off-My-Lawn status to lesser practitioners. A man must protect his brand.

Ha
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:15 PM   #76
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What I find very interesting about the last 20 years of crime statistics is that they have dropped in pretty much every state, regardless of any particular state's policies. So it doesn't appear to be related in a meaningful way to gun laws, three=strike rules, Rudy's New York clean-up, improvements in policing, etc, since these policies are set state by state, and every state regardless of policies has seen a vast improvement. I guess there has probably been an overall trend to incarcerate that might have had an effect.

The nation-wide change in abortion is a possibility best left undiscussed here.

My favorite theory is that the drop in crime rate lags the phase-out of leaded gasoline by 15-20 years. Kids who grew up with the extra lead exposure committed more crimes when they reached the high-crime young adult years. There have been international studies that claim to be able to see this trend at varying times around the world, but I haven't dug into the studies themselves.

I'm hoping that I will always welcome kids on my lawn.
I know the crime rate went down in the nearby metro city. But it was really assisted by more of a statistical accounting strategy, so this could lead to some misleading info. One example is, if a person went one a multiple crime spree in one night, say 5 car thefts in one night, it has now been consolidated to one event instead of separating out the individual offenses by the same person.
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:35 AM   #77
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Interesting thread. As usual, I would respectfully assume that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Oh my though, how the extremes on each end will so fervently defend their beliefs!

I still firmly hold to the opinion that the US is the best place in the world to live. However, the US society in general and certainly our government has indeed lost ground when it comes to honesty, integrity, fiscal responsibility, and respect for freedom. It is far more productive though to focus on positive things and to make improvements rather than theorizing about our future demise (..which I do not believe is imminent). That said, I do not mock nor belittle the right of some to "theorize" and prepare for future contingencies as they see fit.

I am slightly bothered by the connotations attached to some of the labels referenced above. The poplular term of "consipiracy theorist" seems to automatically thrusts one into the category of crazy nut with no merit. Blindly attaching that label to one with ideas other than those held by the mainstream is likely not accurate nor productive.

Similarly, "God, Guns, and Nuts" seems to label one who respects God and/or legally carry a firearms into the "Nut" category. That reminds me of the time where a signifcant world leader theorized about why some may "cling to guns or religion". I personally would fall into this category and to the best of my knowledge, I am neither a nut nor a dreaded "consiparcy theorist".....but then again, it is entirely possible that I may be too delusional to know

Peace to all. I slip off my soap box reiterating the fact that I believe this is the best place in the world and I am grateful for it. Thanks to all who have sacrificed to keep it so.
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:21 AM   #78
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Interesting thread. As usual, I would respectfully assume that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Oh my though, how the extremes on each end will so fervently defend their beliefs!

I agree that this is still the best place in the world to live. However, IMO, the US society in general and certainly our government has indeed lost ground when it comes to honesty, integrity, fiscal responsibility, and respect for freedom. It is far more productive though to focus on positive things and to make improvements rather than theorizing about our future demise (..which I do not believe is imminent). That said, I do not mock nor belittle the right of some to "theorize" and prepare for future contingencies as they see fit.

I am slightly bothered by the connotations attached to some of the labels referenced above. The poplular term of "consipiracy theorist" seems to automatically thrusts one into the category of crazy nut with no merit. Blindly attaching that label to one with ideas other than those held by the mainstream is likely not accurate nor productive.

Similarly, "God, Guns, and Nuts" seems to label one who respects God and/or legally carry a firearms into the "Nut" category. That reminds me of the time where a signifcant world leader theorized about why some may "cling to guns or religion". I personally would fall into this category and to the best of my knowledge, I am neither a nut nor a dreaded "consiparcy theorist".....but then again, it is entirely possible that I may be too delusional to know

Peace to all. I slip off my soap box reiterating the fact that I believe this is the best place in the world and I am grateful for it. Thanks to all who have sacrificed to keep it so.
Pleading guilty for inventing one of the aforementioned labels, it was as much descriptive of the almost laser-like focus of some people on certain topics, to the exclusion of nearly anything else, as a critique of the subject matter per se. And it was specifically referring to a certain segment of my Facebook friends, who rarely post about anything else, and who are forevermore outraged, often about things that are inaccurate, lacking context, or, sadly, completely made up. It's not at all limited to one particular wing of thought, though I guess the majority of my FB friends lean in one direction...

I think people whip themselves into a frenzy, helped by media outlets more interested in attracting eyeballs than disseminating truth.

Assuming that things have only gone to heck in the past few years reflects a poor understanding of US history...

Btw, I happen to own firearms, know how to use them, and fully support legal ownership.
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Old 06-01-2013, 10:08 AM   #79
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It has been my observation that there are a substantial number of people in the world who are not satisfied unless they are unhappy. I try to avoid them.
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Old 06-01-2013, 10:39 AM   #80
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It has been my observation that there are a substantial number of people in the world who are not satisfied unless they are unhappy. I try to avoid them.
Amen!
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