Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-11-2012, 12:50 PM   #21
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birchwood View Post
Anyone for single payer system like Canada?

Everybody is covered, less stress?
Yes me mostly because I am fed up of keeping track of all the medical bills. I don't want to see another piece of paper. I recently had a procedure and I received separate bills from 2 doctors, two labs, an anesthesiologist, hospital, etc. It was maddening. Quite frankly, I don't know how older people keep up with all.
__________________

__________________
Letj is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-11-2012, 01:00 PM   #22
Moderator
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eee Bah Gum
Posts: 21,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letj View Post
Yes me mostly because I am fed up of keeping track of all the medical bills. I don't want to see another piece of paper. I recently had a procedure and I received separate bills from 2 doctors, two labs, an anesthesiologist, hospital, etc. It was maddening. Quite frankly, I don't know how older people keep up with all.
I'm sure many older folks can't keep up with the bills, it's hard enough for us younger folks.

Some while back we would get fliers from our company insurance firm, BCBS, asking us to help them keep costs down by checking all the bills against the Explanation Of Benefits (EOB) forms we'd get. However, it is impossible to do so since the EOB's don't list the individual tests and procedures that have been performed. There was one occaision when I had to pay much more than normal on a co-pay for a new crown and when I talked to our company rep she looked into it and saw that it had been mis-coded and the EOB was wrong. If the EOB would list the codes at the minimum, or at best decscribe each line item, it would help a lot.
__________________

__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Now it's adventure before dementia
Alan is offline  
Old 02-11-2012, 01:36 PM   #23
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Why? You're paying considerably more while 45 million of your fellow Americans go under insured or completely without health care. You don't think most Americans are totally oblivious to what US health care costs them or the various ways they pay dearly - for poorer outcomes?
The point I was trying to make (apparently poorly) is that she didn't see the connection between her taxes and the government paying for the health care.
__________________
marko is offline  
Old 02-11-2012, 01:54 PM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Major Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SF East Bay
Posts: 3,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
I am personally in favor of universal health coverage but think the US would be better served using a universal private insurance system and there are several countries who have this type of system in place.

However, what is common among all the countries that have universal coverage regardless of single payer or competing insurance companies is that the government sets price controls, and all health insurance companies have to be non-profit.
Agreed, and this debate has been so heavily politicized in the US that I think many Americans would be surprised to know that regardless of which political party they support, the majority of UK citizens want their National Health Service. My parents voted Conservative and were big supporters of the NHS.
__________________
ER, for all intents and purposes. Part-time income <5% of annual expenditure.
Major Tom is offline  
Old 02-11-2012, 02:03 PM   #25
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
The point I was trying to make (apparently poorly) is that she didn't see the connection between her taxes and the government paying for the health care.
Understood, and most Americans are equally clueless. Health care to most Americans are their payroll contributions and out-of-pocket costs. In general, that's a small fraction of what they actually pay through taxes and markups in products & services they purchase (funding employer health care contributions). The cost per capita in the UK is lower than the US, if anything US citizens aren't 'seeing the connection.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Tom View Post
Agreed, and this debate has been so heavily politicized in the US that I think many Americans would be surprised to know that regardless of which political party they support, the majority of UK citizens want their National Health Service. My parents voted Conservative and were big supporters of the NHS.
While it has been 'heavily politicized in the US' - the lack of awareness of how much US citizens actually pay (above) seems to me the biggest reason the mainstream population doesn't get charged up about it. Others have made the point here many times before...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is online now  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:27 PM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by james7 View Post
The fact that Italian men live about three years longer on average than American men says more about Italian life and culture than their health care system. We must remember that Italy does not have the epidemics of crime, drugs, and alcohol that we do here in the states, and their cities are not the war zones that ours are.
Sees to me it is a real stretch to think that the above accounts for the difference between 7% of GNP and 15% of the GNP. Perhaps preventative care is more available in Italy to lower income people. That would also be a factor.
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is offline  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:31 PM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by james7 View Post
The fact that Italian men live about three years longer on average than American men says more about Italian life and culture than their health care system. We must remember that Italy does not have the epidemics of crime, drugs, and alcohol that we do here in the states, and their cities are not the war zones that ours are.
On second thought, I guess I need to change my life style. Less criminal activity, and more wine and women. Tough medicine but I will make the sacrifice.
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is offline  
Old 02-11-2012, 07:47 PM   #28
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Brat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
However, what is common among all the countries that have universal coverage regardless of single payer or competing insurance companies is that the government sets price controls, and all health insurance companies have to be non-profit.
Back in the day Blue Cross was non-profit.
__________________
Duck bjorn.
Brat is offline  
Old 02-11-2012, 09:26 PM   #29
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
What could possibly go wrong with this thread?
It's different this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
I am personally in favor of universal health coverage but think the US would be better served using a universal private insurance system and there are several countries who have this type of system in place.
+1.

Nice to hear it from someone who has 'walked the walk' and has perspective from both sides.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline  
Old 02-12-2012, 04:39 AM   #30
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
obgyn65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: midwestern city
Posts: 4,061
I am not sure what's the interest in asking such a divisive question. It is unlikely we find a consensus on this website.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birchwood View Post
Anyone for single payer system like Canada?

Everybody is covered, less stress?
__________________
Very conservative with investments. Not ER'd yet, 48 years old. Please do not take anything I write or imply as legal, financial or medical advice directed to you. Contact your own financial advisor, healthcare provider, or attorney for financial, medical and legal advice.
obgyn65 is offline  
Old 02-12-2012, 07:28 AM   #31
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by obgyn65 View Post
I am not sure what's the interest in asking such a divisive question. It is unlikely we find a consensus on this website.
I can't think of many issues of more importance to retirees than future health care cost/security. Fortunately it has been discussed here several times without devolving into political conflict...though without consensus as you've noted. Still worth comparing "facts" if nothing else? I would love to see someone provide hard evidence that US private health care is worth the huge premium we pay, though we can't collectively afford the current cost anyway.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is online now  
Old 02-12-2012, 07:35 AM   #32
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
On second thought, I guess I need to change my life style. Less criminal activity, and more wine and women. Tough medicine but I will make the sacrifice.
I want to live in Greece: free health care, 30 hour work week, retire at 55 (I'll take a half pension!!), lounge around eating good food and drinking ouzo...live long and live well!

Let the grand kids pay for it!!
__________________
marko is offline  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:01 AM   #33
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Largo
Posts: 1,945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
I'm sure many older folks can't keep up with the bills, it's hard enough for us younger folks.

Some while back we would get fliers from our company insurance firm, BCBS, asking us to help them keep costs down by checking all the bills against the Explanation Of Benefits (EOB) forms we'd get. However, it is impossible to do so since the EOB's don't list the individual tests and procedures that have been performed. There was one occaision when I had to pay much more than normal on a co-pay for a new crown and when I talked to our company rep she looked into it and saw that it had been mis-coded and the EOB was wrong. If the EOB would list the codes at the minimum, or at best decscribe each line item, it would help a lot.
I always try to check the EOB's but as you describe above, they are a bit cryptic and lack detail. By accident? I think not.
__________________
Buckeye is offline  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:11 AM   #34
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Largo
Posts: 1,945
Quote:
Originally Posted by obgyn65 View Post
I am not sure what's the interest in asking such a divisive question. It is unlikely we find a consensus on this website.
It's not very interesting, or informative, if everyone agrees. There's a lot of smart people on this board and, whether I end up agreeing with them or not, I learn from their input.

To me, the "divisiveness" makes the journey interesting and informative on the way to the possible destination of consensus.
__________________
Buckeye is offline  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:16 AM   #35
Recycles dryer sheets
l2ridehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PWC VA
Posts: 126
The biggest reason our health care system is so much more expensive is the legal system. And yes someone will jump on this and say TORT is only 2% of our health care cost. And yes that is almost true. What is does take into consideration is the high cost of Mal-practice insurance and the added cost that EVERY doctor creates by doing so many extra tests to avoid the perception that he made a mistake. Those costs are difficult to measure but have been estimated by some very smart people to be 40% of our total health care cost.

And as to the premise that we have the best health care, a lot of people travel to the US for specialist care. Very few if any travel to the UK or Canada or Norway or anyplace else for specialist care.

The issue of 45 million people with limited care needs to be resolved. However I believe there are better answers then a single payer system.
__________________
l2ridehd is offline  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:21 AM   #36
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by l2ridehd View Post
The biggest reason our health care system is so much more expensive is the legal system. And yes someone will jump on this and say TORT is only 2% of our health care cost. And yes that is almost true. What is does take into consideration is the high cost of Mal-practice insurance and the added cost that EVERY doctor creates by doing so many extra tests to avoid the perception that he made a mistake. Those costs are difficult to measure but have been estimated by some very smart people to be 40% of our total health care cost.
Absolutely!!! Here's another: a doctor friend told me that he had to hire 3 people just to do the insurance forms etc.

Until the 'mandates' talk began, he'd been thinking of not taking insurance, charging a modest fee ($75) and making more money than if he had to pay people to keep track of insurance claims.
__________________
marko is offline  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:27 AM   #37
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by l2ridehd View Post
The biggest reason our health care system is so much more expensive is the legal system. And yes someone will jump on this and say TORT is only 2% of our health care cost. And yes that is almost true. What is does take into consideration is the high cost of Mal-practice insurance and the added cost that EVERY doctor creates by doing so many extra tests to avoid the perception that he made a mistake. Those costs are difficult to measure but have been estimated by some very smart people to be 40% of our total health care cost.
Research by McKinsey, linked a number of times in previous threads on this subject, does not support this conclusion. Do you have any data or studies that do?

Quote:
And as to the premise that we have the best health care, a lot of people travel to the US for specialist care. Very few if any travel to the UK or Canada or Norway or anyplace else for specialist care.
Some feel indicators like average life expectancy are better measures of overall health care.

Quote:
The issue of 45 million people with limited care needs to be resolved. However I believe there are better answers then a single payer system.
please share your ideas on how to address this challenge.
__________________
MichaelB is offline  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:39 AM   #38
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by l2ridehd View Post
The biggest reason our health care system is so much more expensive is the legal system. And yes someone will jump on this and say TORT is only 2% of our health care cost. And yes that is almost true. What is does take into consideration is the high cost of Mal-practice insurance and the added cost that EVERY doctor creates by doing so many extra tests to avoid the perception that he made a mistake. Those costs are difficult to measure but have been estimated by some very smart people to be 40% of our total health care cost.

And as to the premise that we have the best health care, a lot of people travel to the US for specialist care. Very few if any travel to the UK or Canada or Norway or anyplace else for specialist care.

The issue of 45 million people with limited care needs to be resolved. However I believe there are better answers then a single payer system.
While malpractice is significant, from what I've read it's not the biggest reason, arguably higher admin costs are. But it's not one single reason anyway, here's just one summary Why Is Health Care So Expensive? Let Us Count the Conspirators | Moneyland | TIME.com

And I researched the 'lots of people travel to the US' for health care angle too. Indeed people (some wealthy) do, but the numbers are "relatively small, even infinitesimal" compared to health care system usage within other developed countries. I'd welcome hard evidence to the contrary. Furthermore, we've all read stories of US citizens traveling to other countries for major procedures and prescriptions because they can't afford them here. That was unheard of only a few generations ago. What does that say about private US health care?

Again, I'd love to be shown hard evidence (vs opinion or out of date "facts") where we get value commensurate with the huge premiums (50-100%) we pay vs the rest of the world. There are far more knowledgeable folks here and I am not a doctor, but my Dad was an orthopedic surgeon and I dealt with health care providers as an employer for decades. I am very concerned about the cost of healthcare in the US, the cost trend is not sustainable.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 66868441.jpg (79.6 KB, 9 views)
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is online now  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:41 AM   #39
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 844
Not only do I support the idea, I think it is inevitable. I just can't see the math working any other way.
__________________
farmerEd is offline  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:53 AM   #40
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Largo
Posts: 1,945
My husband plays tennis a couple times a week with international snowbirds from Germany, France, Canada and the Netherlands. Politics, including healthcare, come up in their Friday coffee klatch. They consider our lack of available healthcare for those who can least afford it barbaric.
__________________

__________________
Buckeye is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Huge increase in my health care from Oxford gquiring Health and Early Retirement 28 11-14-2011 05:39 PM
Debt/Deficit/Taxes and Health Care Reform chinaco FIRE Related Public Policy 13 08-31-2011 05:21 AM
How to Invest my Mom's Money for Her Home Health Care Aide Costs? nico08 FIRE and Money 9 07-15-2011 03:51 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:10 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.