Tax reform impact

That’s kind of ironic don’t you think? Just got done passing a huge tax cut and then turn around and propose a tax hike because they are short of revenue. :facepalm:

I would rather see people like myself voluntarily paying higher gas taxes, tolls, user fees than my 83yo mom who has never driven, and doesn't own a car. Her cost of this "good road" benefit should be included in the cost of goods sold at retail level, whenever my siblings take her to store or on vacations. JMHO.
 
Oregon, and California had proposals at one time for "user fees" since electric cars owners do not pay gas taxes.
Makes sense for them to pay for roads too. They could just take the electric cars rebates.
 
I would rather see people like myself voluntarily paying higher gas taxes, tolls, user fees than my 83yo mom who has never driven, and doesn't own a car. Her cost of this "good road" benefit should be included in the cost of goods sold at retail level, whenever my siblings take her to store or on vacations. JMHO.

It's nice for your mom that this particular tax shift won't hurt her.

But in general, shifting government revenues from income-based taxes to usage-based taxes/fees tends to be regressive and hurt those whose basic purchases make up a relatively higher portion of their expenses. Those on fixed incomes will almost certainly be impacted disproportionately.

Gas tax increases may not impact your mom directly. They do impact my 86 year old dad who still drives. And of course, the trucks that deliver groceries are impacted, the taxis or ubers that she may use are impacted, etc - so she isn't completely free of impact.

And eventually "entitlements" will likely become a target as a way to decrease the deficit. When that happens, mom may well be impact more than most.
 
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Actually for most new cars the telematic system can report the cars mileage back to a central place. In particular for the non fossil fueled ones. So it would be simple to set it up so that based upon the mileage drive a base charge is made each month for the miles driven. That would be the equivalent of the gas tax. It turns out mileage driven information is contained in the odb2 emmissions system. Teslas have this so there already exist add on devices that can report for fleet applications. Just a slight stretch and you can do base miles reporting for electric vehicles. It could for example be integrated with the electronic tolling systems.
 
Actually for most new cars the telematic system can report the cars mileage back to a central place. In particular for the non fossil fueled ones. So it would be simple to set it up so that based upon the mileage drive a base charge is made each month for the miles driven. That would be the equivalent of the gas tax. It turns out mileage driven information is contained in the odb2 emmissions system. Teslas have this so there already exist add on devices that can report for fleet applications. Just a slight stretch and you can do base miles reporting for electric vehicles. It could for example be integrated with the electronic tolling systems.

What about someone who just purchased a car with 200,000 miles but is 16 and in reality it's there first miles ever driven? Would the 16 year old be unfairly taxed with this model, or would the ODBII be reset upon title transfer?
 
It's nice for your mom that this particular tax shift won't hurt her.

But in general, shifting government revenues from income-based taxes to usage-based taxes/fees tends to be regressive and hurt those whose basic purchases make up a relatively higher portion of their expenses. Those on fixed incomes will almost certainly be impacted disproportionately.

Gas tax increases may not impact your mom directly. They do impact my 86 year old dad who still drives. And of course, the trucks that deliver groceries are impacted, the taxis or ubers that she may use are impacted, etc - so she isn't completely free of impact.

And eventually "entitlements" will likely become a target as a way to decrease the deficit. When that happens, mom may well be impact more than most.

I understand that gas taxes don't impact mom directly, but she should pay as higher prices on goods delivered by truck.

I don't know if still is true today, but in the late '70's, I w@rked in an UG coal mine in Wyoming. No state income tax. But after 90 days, you had to get a WY drivers license and WY plates for your car. Plate costs were based on the original sticker price of your auto, and that's how one was taxed by the state.
I didn't own any real estate so I don't know how that was taxed. I certainly thought that the plate fee was better than an income tax for me. If my mother lived there, she had no tax to pay the state.
 
What about someone who just purchased a car with 200,000 miles but is 16 and in reality it's there first miles ever driven? Would the 16 year old be unfairly taxed with this model, or would the ODBII be reset upon title transfer?
When you transfer title today there is a form that you fill out already to give the mileage, it could easily be put online. (the form is signed by the prior owner). It could be the case that a copy of the form is sent to the DMV as part of the title transfer process. He obdII would eliminate the need for more complex solutions when you continue to own the car. The dmv would update the databases with the max mileage for the old owner and the start mileage for the new owner. I am not sure that private transfers handle the issue right now, but all transfers thru dealers do. So it is not a large step to do it for all transfers. Note that this would initially be only for electric vehicles since they pay no gas tax.
 
Apparently, there is a LOT left to spend, if you’re a corporation and want to do stock buybacks. Tax cut scoreboard: Workers $6 billion; Shareholders: $171 billion - Feb. 16, 2018

Money is fungible. Let's go over the choices of the company with the now lower tax rate:

1. Stock buybacks result in someone selling the stock (otherwise it could not be bought by the company). That is now money in someone's pocket, which is either spent or saved. If spent, it stimulates the economy. If saved, it is lent by the institution to others which stimulates the economy. If invested directly, the cycle continues.

2. Stock dividends result in money to the stockholder. That stockholder either invests, spends, or saves. See #1.

3. Companies invest the money in capital equipment. This is money spent to the providers of the equipment. See above.

4. Companies give the money to employees. See above.

5. Companies don't do anything, they just keep the increased profits in the bank. See above.
 
I think that it will take a while to see the full effects of the new law. As far as I'm concerned, I did see an increase in my paycheck. I do expect overall to pay more taxes as I am in a HCOL area.

As far as companies benefiting, I am all for that. Many of the ERs here are living fully or partially off their funds - which are those corporations. It pays to keep them healthy. Even many government pension plans are based in full and in part on stock funds. The healthier the underlying companies, the heathier the pension plans, and the funds that are funding some of the ERs on this board.

I do not see the gas tax to pay for roads, that does seem appropriate, although at some point the electric vehicles are going to have to chip in here. There are a huge number of people in the US going off the books to avoid paying any taxes while reaping benefits of living in this country. This is a way of tapping some of that money.
 
When you transfer title today there is a form that you fill out already to give the mileage, it could easily be put online. (the form is signed by the prior owner). It could be the case that a copy of the form is sent to the DMV as part of the title transfer process. He obdII would eliminate the need for more complex solutions when you continue to own the car. The dmv would update the databases with the max mileage for the old owner and the start mileage for the new owner. I am not sure that private transfers handle the issue right now, but all transfers thru dealers do. So it is not a large step to do it for all transfers. Note that this would initially be only for electric vehicles since they pay no gas tax.

I'm relatively sure that would be hacked in about 7 minutes. Only report 1 out of every 10 miles, or turn it off for a long trip, or whatever. Run the odometer back before you sell the car to match what had been reported.
 
The funny thing about the proposed gas tax is that it will only be used for a portion of these projects. The state and even local govts share in the cost of most. This brings state income taxes, sales taxes and even local property taxes into play. :facepalm:
 
Money is fungible. Let's go over the choices of the company with the now lower tax rate:



1. Stock buybacks result in someone selling the stock (otherwise it could not be bought by the company). That is now money in someone's pocket, which is either spent or saved. If spent, it stimulates the economy. If saved, it is lent by the institution to others which stimulates the economy. If invested directly, the cycle continues.



2. Stock dividends result in money to the stockholder. That stockholder either invests, spends, or saves. See #1.



3. Companies invest the money in capital equipment. This is money spent to the providers of the equipment. See above.



4. Companies give the money to employees. See above.



5. Companies don't do anything, they just keep the increased profits in the bank. See above.



Yeah, but that’s not how it was sold.
 
But stock buy-backs increase the NAV don't they? Fine by me!

Stock price, not NAV. And, in general, it acts as price support in the short term, but not so much in the long term. Companies have a very bad habit of buying their stock when prices are very high, and then when stocks get hit hard, all of a sudden the company freaks out about sales and cash flow and doesn’t buy their stock back when it would be very prudent to do so. All that buy-back money just went poof.

Also stock buy backs are often used to cover stock issued for stock option plans that reward top executives. Thus stock isn’t actually retired - just transferred to insiders. There is no reduction in number of shares outstanding.

Look at GE and IBM.

It managed to reduce the float by 215M shares, indicating an average net price per share of $203 during the entire five-year span. That compares very unfavorably to the current price of $144 and indicates that the shares IBM has bought back in the past five years are worth right at $12.8B less than what it paid. Further, that implies that one-quarter of IBM’s total buyback spending was lost to frictional costs, including unfavorable timing as well as issuances. While that’s not particularly great, it is (unfortunately) pretty normal among mega caps that hand out lots of stock-based compensation. That doesn’t make it a good result, but IBM certainly isn’t alone in terms of buybacks that haven’t gone all that well. Keep in mind also that the very low stock price in comparison to years past makes the buyback look very unfavorable given that many shares were purchased at much higher prices than today. The flip side is that IBM can load up at today’s prices, but as I said, it doesn’t look like management is particularly keen to do that if the first half of 2017 is any indication.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4104622-ibm-done-48-billion-buyback-money

https://www.forbes.com/sites/aalsin...uired-to-vote-on-stock-buybacks/#1ccf496d6b1e

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financial-advisors/121415/stock-buybacks-good-thing-or-not.asp
 
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Stock price, not NAV. .

Yes, I mean stock price. I tend to use them (incorrectly) interchangeably.

But I used to be one of those 'top executives' rewarded with stock options; one of the reasons I was able to RE!
 
I'm relatively sure that would be hacked in about 7 minutes. Only report 1 out of every 10 miles, or turn it off for a long trip, or whatever. Run the odometer back before you sell the car to match what had been reported.
On modern cars there is no mechanical odometer to run back. Rather it is electronic. (and goes to1,000,000 miles). Now clearly on modern cars since systems like on-star transmit the mileage back to the server, there is a connection. In fact the ecm needs to know the mileage to report mpg which modern cars do. This is a completly distinct system from the on dash odometer. and basiclly you would have to replace the engine control module and not follow the rules. Actually with modern telematcs (such as On-star) one could set it up so that on-star pulls a diagnostics report on the vehicle (I get one once a month for example because I subscribe to on star). For example the monthly report tells me the cars mileage. In particular for now this could be restricted to electric vehicles to charge them.
In any case you would have to change out the ecm which could cost up to 1k to do. So in no sense would this involve the odometer on the dash put the record in the engine computer.

The systems discussed exist on a vehicles since 1996. Note that a lot of fleet operations also use the information right now. In addition the other computers on an electric vehicle also have more ways to track. Some insurance companies also use this information right now to charge by the mile also. (As well as also tracking hard starts and stops etc). If you want a car that does not keep track get any antique that is still running, and possibly restore it. Of course you will loose the advantage of fuel injection and other features, and have to deal with the problems of carburetors.
 
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It's nice for your mom that this particular tax shift won't hurt her.

But in general, shifting government revenues from income-based taxes to usage-based taxes/fees tends to be regressive and hurt those whose basic purchases make up a relatively higher portion of their expenses. Those on fixed incomes will almost certainly be impacted disproportionately.

Gas tax increases may not impact your mom directly. They do impact my 86 year old dad who still drives. And of course, the trucks that deliver groceries are impacted, the taxis or ubers that she may use are impacted, etc - so she isn't completely free of impact.

And eventually "entitlements" will likely become a target as a way to decrease the deficit. When that happens, mom may well be impact more than most.

There actually was no "shift". The gas tax had been out there almost as long as the income tax. And it has not been raised in 25 years. Not sure what the argument would be against a tax to maintain roads that is tied the fuel used on those roads. Sure it is "regressive". So is the cost of gas. And heaven knows the roads need repairs.
 
Yeah, but that’s not how it was sold.
The corporate income tax in the US was highest in the West. We saw companies fleeing our shore taking jobs with them. Or worse, simply reincorporating overseas to reduce taxes and stay competitive, reducing the US tax base

Also, the US was unique in taxing worldwide income of US cororations-and individuals for that matter. So double taxation of foreign earnings.

Tax reform should keep more jobs at home and even attract more companies to invest here. We are already seeing that. But we really had no choice: corporate tax reform was needed. It will benefit workers by creating jobs here.
 
My Megac*rp finally announced to the inside what will happen with the money.

1) Increase dividend
2) Stock buy backs

When leadership was asked "what about the employees?", leadership said that they are "working on a salary plan" for the employees, and if you keep working hard, we all benefit as always. What does that mean? Nothing, same old. A plan could mean only 5% of employees get raise or bonus since they never give across the board raises or bonuses. It is an unknown.

For me, it means 12 weeks left... The countdown continues.
 
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