A different type of SSD

[Jerry1]

Where could I learn more about NAS? I think it sounds great. I think the only think I don’t see mentioned is some type of off site storage. Do you back up in a way that allows you to move a drive off site say once a month?

 

[Cut-Throat]

Where could I learn more about NAS? I think it sounds great. I think the only think I don’t see mentioned is some type of off site storage. Do you back up in a way that allows you to move a drive off site say once a month?

Yes, the NAS is the best thing I have done with Computers in over 25 years of home PCs..... They are really quite simple, with mostly a Small OS that just manages Disk Storage... I just bought one and plugged it in and the Main Menu of DSM (Synology's Disk Station Management) pretty much led me to set it up.



Yes, I take a Backup with a USB Passport Drive about once every 2 weeks and store it off site... I also have a copy of my important files in my Safe Deposit Box that I refresh Quarterly.



There is a wealth of info at their Webpage.




https://www.synology.com/en-us

 

[mountainsoft]

the NAS is the best thing I have done with Computers in over 25 years of home PCs. They are really quite simple, with mostly a Small OS that just manages Disk Storage... I just bought one and plugged it in and the Main Menu of DSM (Synology's Disk Station Management) pretty much led me to set it up.

Have you tried running Crystal Disk Mark to see what kind of speeds you get with the NAS? I would think the network would be a major bottleneck for data transfer?

I do a lot of video editing so fast drive access is a must for me. I'm considering switching to a M.2 drive next time since the SATA interface is currently the limiting factor. The only problem is I have three drives and only one M.2 slot so I would have to decide which drive to speed up.

All of my computing equipment is in one location, so I don't really need an external NAS drive. I like to minimize extra boxes whenever possible.

I take a Backup with a USB Passport Drive about once every 2 weeks and store it off site... I also have a copy of my important files in my Safe Deposit Box that I refresh Quarterly.

I backup nightly to an external USB 3TB hard drive. About once a month I swap that drive with a second drive I keep in my safe deposit box.

 

[Cut-Throat]

I have all Gigabit devices on my network, so data transfer speeds are not an issue.... I stream Music from NAS and my Music Library takes up the majority of space on the NAS.


You mentioned that you had a 2TB Device, so even when you are editing, you are moving a very small amount of data to your Computer's RAM for the actual editing process. I have 32GB of RAM, so that can hold a heck of lot of Data. So, data transfer should not be a very big issue.

 

[mountainsoft]

You mentioned that you had a 2TB Device, so even when you are editing, you are moving a very small amount of data to your Computer's RAM for the actual editing process. I have 32GB of RAM, so that can hold a heck of lot of Data. So, data transfer should not be a very big issue.

True, but I also move a lot of video data around on my drives. For example, I record TV shows to my video drive, remove the commercials, then move the video to my main data drive for storage or viewing. Same with editing, I make all my edits on my video drive, then transfer the finished video to my main data drive when I'm finished.

I don't back up my video drive since vast amounts of data are in constant transition, that's why I move the finished works to my main drive when I'm done.

Speed really matters when moving around multiple gigabytes of data.

I thought I read somewhere that even with a gigabit network the transfer speeds were limited to something like 100MB/s? That's slower than my old internal hard drive at 150MB/s, but faster than my external USB drive at 88MB/s. My newest SSD clocks in around 514MB/s, and I have already noticed the real world difference since installing it yesterday. Files copy faster, programs open quicker, etc.

Other than external storage that can be accessed from multiple locations, what advantages does your NAS offer you? I've never had an issue with internal drives so I don't know why I would want a NAS.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Sure when you are actively editing and moving data, it makes sense to use an internal SSD to 'Do the work'.... A NAS in all about Storage. The retrieval of Stored Data is a small part in the arena of Computing, and Performance becomes less of an issue. With that said, NAS performance varies by Model.


https://www.synology.com/en-us/products/performance#4bay



A NAS is all about the business of Storage, not computing... So, if you've got multiple computers in your home, the sharing of Files is done much better than Windows can do.

Cost per storage of a NAS is much Cheaper than internal storage... You can place your NAS anywhere on your Network, and preferably hide it. And a big advantage is RAID.

Asking what do you need a NAS for, is like asking what do you need a computer for....--- After all, people got along just fine for thousands of years without computers at all. Or why I should I have a Large Flat Screen TV, if I can watch any video I want on my Laptop.... You really can't assess how valuable a NAS is until you own one.

 

[SecondCor521]

I'm considering switching to a M.2 drive next time since the SATA interface is currently the limiting factor. The only problem is I have three drives and only one M.2 slot so I would have to decide which drive to speed up.

Just to nitpick a little, M.2 is a form factor and not really a protocol. You can have M.2 running SATA, PCIe, or (and I didn't know this) USB protocols.

I'm guessing that the M.2 you're looking at is a PCIe drive, and yes, those can (depending on the bus width and hardware and maybe some other things) be faster, even much faster than SATA.

 

[mountainsoft]

A NAS is all about the business of Storage, not computing... So, if you've got multiple computers in your home, the sharing of Files is done much better than Windows can do. Cost per storage of a NAS is much Cheaper than internal storage... You can place your NAS anywhere on your Network, and preferably hide it. And a big advantage is RAID.

Gotcha, NAS is for storage, performance is secondary.

I'm curious about the "cheaper than internal" part as the NAS uses the same drives just located in an NAS case instead of inside my computer case. So there's the additional cost of the NAS case and hardware. Still, cost wouldn't be a big deciding factor for me. Hard drives are cheaper than SSD's, but I like the smaller size, faster performance, quiet operation, lower power requirements, etc.

We only have two computers in our home, one is mine and one is my daughters. We really don't have any need to share data between the two computers. I do use my computer to backup her hard drive over the network, but that's about it.

You really can't assess how valuable a NAS is until you own one.

Perhaps, but the need has to come first. I wouldn't buy anything without knowing it's going to be an improvement over what I already have. You obviously have a need that the NAS is solving quite nicely. For me, I don't see any advantages it would offer in relation to the disadvantages (another box, another power connection, network maintenance, etc.).

We have a small home so I don't have many places I could "hide" an NAS. Perhaps in the attic or crawlspace, but then access becomes problematic and I would need to run more network and power cables. Also, my computer is on an uninterrupted power supply, so I can continue using my internal hard drive even when the power goes off. My network is distributed throughout my house and isn't on the UPS, so it stops working when the power goes off.

 

[mountainsoft]

Just to nitpick a little, M.2 is a form factor and not really a protocol. You can have M.2 running SATA, PCIe, or (and I didn't know this) USB protocols. I'm guessing that the M.2 you're looking at is a PCIe drive, and yes, those can (depending on the bus width and hardware and maybe some other things) be faster, even much faster than SATA.

Ironically, I just learned that a few days ago as I was shopping for a new SSD drive. The only thing I knew about M.2 was that I had an empty slot on my motherboard.

Yes, I was referring to a PCIe SSD drive in the M.2 form factor. I've seen some impressive performance numbers but I don't know that's it's worth spending $75-150 or so to replace my current SSD's that are working just fine.

There's the old car saying "how fast can you afford to go". I don't need to shave 2 minutes off my trip to the grocery store.

 

[steelyman]

This has been an interesting and educational thread for me to follow. I think there are members who are “business-class” pros, well-versed in the requirements for keeping computing/networking/storage services up and running 24/7 for an enterprise. That’s a big job and critical.

My perspective is the home environment, much smaller and less complicated. But for planning/future needs, reading about options and best practices is appreciated.

There. I didn’t add much of anything!

 

[Jerry1]

This has been an interesting and educational thread for me to follow. I think there are members who are “business-class” pros, well-versed in the requirements for keeping computing/networking/storage services up and running 24/7 for an enterprise. That’s a big job and critical.

My perspective is the home environment, much smaller and less complicated. But for planning/future needs, reading about options and best practices is appreciated.

There. I didn’t add much of anything!

I agree. We should start a thread on backup practices. I want to do better than I currently am, so this has gotten interesting.

 

[misanman]

Yes, the NAS is the best thing I have done with Computers in over 25 years of home PCs..... They are really quite simple, with mostly a Small OS that just manages Disk Storage... I just bought one and plugged it in and the Main Menu of DSM (Synology's Disk Station Management) pretty much led me to set it up.

I have a Synology DiskStation and it has been great. I bet I'm only using a 10th of its capabilities. I discovered it's Photo Station and Video Station features a couple of months ago. Now I use them to allow photos and videos to be streamed to my Samsung TV. It makes it super easy to view this stuff. At Thanksgiving, the grand kids couldn't get enough of the old (to them) videos and pictures. There is a companion software that allows me to access them from my cell phone.

 

[jim584672]

I use Clonezilla for backups. It goes on a flash drive and boots into its own OS. It can be used to backup any disk or OS. Best of all it is free.

 

[Cut-Throat]

I'm curious about the "cheaper than internal" part as the NAS uses the same drives just located in an NAS case instead of inside my computer case. So there's the additional cost of the NAS case and hardware. Still, cost wouldn't be a big deciding factor for me. Hard drives are cheaper than SSD's, but I like the smaller size, faster performance, quiet operation, lower power requirements, etc.

The NAS may not be for you, but your first post indicated that you were buying a 2TB SSD drive... That is where the lower cost comes in.... With a NAS system, it can be in a Storage Room, as mine is... So, the quiet operation is a non-issue... You can buy a lot more storage in a Spinning Hard Drive than SSDs presently.



The NAS is a Long Range Solution and the Benefits, Cost Savings etc.. may take awhile.. But I simplified my System and made it much more Tidy, Quiet and Functional. And it wasn't just about getting a NAS, also other network gear and ethernet wiring...Here are a few Pics of my System... All the Network Gear, Switches, Routers, Modems and the NAS systems are in a Storage Room in the Basement.... I rarely even see it or Putz with it. The other is my Den where I have a Powerful Small Lenovo Desktop and Monitor ---Latest i7 Skylake Processor... 32 Gig of memory. 256G SSD Drive. At 7 inches square, it doesn't take up much space. Fastest Computer I have ever owned. That's it!

 

[MRG]

Some NAS have the ability to cache data on short term SSD. They're built on the mentality if you read some, you're probably reading more. A very reasonable solution for many applications. For some applications they experience all the benefits of SSD with cheaper entry costs. Of course you need the storage requirements to justify one. No sense in buying a NAS for 100mb. For multiple TB, perhaps?

Cool room, cut-throat.

 

[mountainsoft]

My perspective is the home environment, much smaller and less complicated. But for planning/future needs, reading about options and best practices is appreciated.

I'm in the home environment also, nothing fancy about my setup. I have a relatively fast desktop computer with an external backup hard drive. I do have a simple wired home network, mostly for streaming video from my computer or Netflix.

I do work from home but the only work related equipment to my setup is a second printer. I could easily get by without it, but it's nice to have forms ready to go in that printer without having to manually feed paper each time.

 

[mountainsoft]

The Network Gear, Switches, Routers, Modems and the NAS systems are in a Storage Room in the Basement.... I rarely even see it or Putz with it. The other is my Den where I have a Powerful Small Lenovo Desktop and Monitor ---Latest i7 Skylake Processor... 32 Gig of memory. 256G SSD Drive. At 7 inches square, it doesn't take up much space. Fastest Computer I have ever owned.

Awe... That's a cute little computer... Mine is a full (mid?) size desktop tower computer. It sits on the shelf beneath my desk along with my UPS, cable modem, router, and USB backup drive. I have a few other bits and pieces hidden behind my desk (VOIP telephone adapter, Insteon interface, etc.). The only other computer item is an ethernet switch located in our crawlspace (it was easier to run one cable from the office to the switch, than to run multiple cables from the office).

Your computer is probably faster than mine. I built it about four years ago with an i7-4790K and 16GB RAM. I have a 256GB SSD for my system boot drive, a new 2TB SSD for my personal data drive, and a 1TB SSD I use for video work (recording TV shows with an internal tuner card, editing home movies, etc.). I also have an external 3TB USB drive I use for backups.

I also have a Brother HL5250DN laser printer with a second paper tray, a Xerox Phasar 6022 color laser printer, an Epson V500 flatbed scanner (photos, negatives, artwork, etc.), and a Snapscan IX500 (bank statements, etc.) All of the accessories take up more room than the actual computer.

 

[mountainsoft]

I agree. We should start a thread on backup practices. I want to do better than I currently am, so this has gotten interesting.

I backup nightly to an external USB hard drive using Macrium Reflect to create full image backups. This gives me protection against my own stupid mistakes. For instance, if I accidentally delete a file or folder, I can recover them quickly from my backup drive.

Of course, having the backup drive connected to the computer means it is vulnerable to the same threats as my main drive (computer viruses, power surges, fire, theft, floods, tornadoes, etc.). My backup drive could also fail at any time, rendering it useless if my main drive fails.

So about once a month I swap my backup drive with a second identical drive I keep in the safe deposit box at the bank. Even if my house were to burn down and take the computer and backup drive out, I still have the one at the bank I can recover critical data from.

Just for added protection, I also burn some of my more critical data to BluRay data discs. Things such as financial documents, photos, home movies, etc. In theory, if I were to accidentally delete something from my hard drive without realizing it (or if a virus corrupted files), those missing or corrupted files would also be duplicated on my backup drives. But I know anything I burn to the blu-ray disc is not going to change with time.

The key is to have multiple backups, stored in multiple locations, on a variety of media.

 

[steelyman]

My current backup strategy at home is also pretty simple but evolving.

Contributing to that is a move between states a few years ago. Prior to that I had no backup strategy at all except the occasional copy to a USB stick for individual files. This was on a PC running Windows Vista (!).

Before the move, I was concerned about physical damage to the PC and data so I bought a WD MyBook and ran full backups using WD’s software, which worked well. The moving company moved all the PC stuff but the MyBook rode in the car with me, just to be sure.

I bought an iMac after moving, which is now my main computer. I’d tried to be clever about formatting the MyBook so that it could be used by both the Windows and Mac systems, but didn’t succeed due to something related to the master boot record on the drive. However, the Mac could read (read only) the existing Windows data on the MyBook so I had/have access to that and I’m slowly going through that, picking out files I want to have on the iMac.

The iMac has 1 TB of SSD storage. That’s what gets backed up.

I recently bought a second, larger, MyBook dedicated to the Mac. That and the earlier backup drive will both be under control of MacOS’ Time Machine, which I believe can alternate backups between two drives (basic redundancy).

The newer, larger external drive failed drive tests within a few months and I got a warranty replacement. Never had a failure like that but I’m more motivated to run drive self-tests on a regular basis. I use the Mac version of WD Utilities which gives three levels of tests from basic to thorough (the latter takes a couple of days to finish...)

This move and switch between two very different machines is helpful in asking myself, “What data do I really NEED to have backed up in the most reliable way?”. The easy answer right now is “all of it!”, but I do think about it as I clean/discard old PC data.

I have no current strategy for offsite storage except for what Google Apps provides (my large retirement planning spreadsheet is in there, it would be a big problem if I lost that!).

The future of the old PC is Linux, with which I’m very familiar, and it’ll be used mostly for digitization of analog audio. I probably will not have an automated backup for that, if I back up at all.

[ADDED] The MyBook drives are connected directly to the Mac by USB. The only Ethernet cable in my home is a really short one that goes from the cable modem to the router (dual band Netgear Nighthawk). I have a plug-in extender (also Netgear) that I’d used to provide a port for the old PC, but I don’t use right now while the PC is boxed up and off my office desk.

 

[Cut-Throat]

On my Synology NAS, there is a Backup Application Called 'Hyper Backup'.... I have this Back up files every night at 3 am... It is an incremental Backup system, so it usually only takes about 2 minutes, unless I make a lot of changes. The first backup Backed up everything and Took quite a while, as I backing up about 1.6 TB


I actually have 2 NAS Systems and I use one of them for strictly Backup... Each Quarter, I backup externally to a USB Drive and Store Offsite.. I am thinking of Changing this to Monthly...


And since the NAS system has RAID Protection, if I have a Disk Drive Fail, I never need to use the Backups. I can merely Hot Swap out the failed Drive and Plug in a new one, and the NAS system rebuilds everything automatically... Drive Failure used to be my Main Reason for ever using Backups.


I actually had a Drive develop Sector Errors a few weeks ago, and replacing the Drive took me 2 minutes, with no tools other than my hands. Never even had to power down the NAS. The NAS Rebuild took about 15 hours however, but did not interrupt any processing whatsoever.

 

[SecondCor521]

And since the NAS system has RAID Protection, if I have a Disk Drive Fail, I never need to use the Backups. I can merely Hot Swap out the failed Drive and Plug in a new one, and the NAS system rebuilds everything automatically... Drive Failure used to be my Main Reason for ever using Backups.

I actually had a Drive develop Sector Errors a few weeks ago, and replacing the Drive took me 2 minutes, with no tools other than my hands. Never even had to power down the NAS. The NAS Rebuild took about 15 hours however, but did not interrupt any processing whatsoever.

One thing I thought was cool was that my former employer's enterprise-level SSDs had RAID built inside the individual drives. Instead of striping the data across drives, it striped data across NAND chips. So you could have an entire NAND chip go bad on the drive and it could discover the failure and do the automatic RAID rebuild in the background without losing a bit (literally) of data. The rebuild did take a long time in the drive as well.

 

[Cut-Throat]

One thing I thought was cool was that my former employer's enterprise-level SSDs had RAID built inside the individual drives. Instead of striping the data across drives, it striped data across NAND chips. So you could have an entire NAND chip go bad on the drive and it could discover the failure and do the automatic RAID rebuild in the background without losing a bit (literally) of data. The rebuild did take a long time in the drive as well.

Very Cool ! --- And one of the Major Benefits of separating your Computer from your Storage.... The 'Storage O/S' is concerned with the Functionality of Protecting and Distributing your Data.... Not so much with the Computer O/S....

 

[SilentWalker]

On my Synology NAS, there is a Backup Application Called 'Hyper Backup'.... I have this Back up files every night at 3 am... It is an incremental Backup system, so it usually only takes about 2 minutes, unless I make a lot of changes. The first backup Backed up everything and Took quite a while, as I backing up about 1.6 TB

Can you use Hyper Backup to copy all the desktop and laptop drives around the house to the Synology NAS, or does it only work for backing up the data already on Synology to a third external backup drive?

 

[Cut-Throat]

Can you use Hyper Backup to copy all the desktop and laptop drives around the house to the Synology NAS, or does it only work for backing up the data already on Synology to a third external backup drive?

I believe that you're right. And if you think about it, Synology would only want you to store your data on their NAS (which I do), not to store it on other computers.


And as far as backing up up Apps, programs and the O/S ... There are many other programs for that. And, I don't bother as I rarely need to restore my O/S and programs anymore. -- Most Computers come with recovery type partitions and or the ability to make a Recovery Drive. And Programs are so easy to download these days with fast internet. (I have Gigabit Internet speed)

 

[mountainsoft]

Most Computers come with recovery type partitions and or the ability to make a Recovery Drive. And Programs are so easy to download these days with fast internet.

Most recovery partitions exist on the same physical drive as your main partition. If the drive fails you lose your data AND the recovery partition. Even if the recovery partition is on a separate drive, it's still vulnerable to a power surge, computer virus, fire, theft, etc.

Yeah, you can always reinstall programs but that takes time. One program is no big deal, but having to reinstall 20-40 programs or more from scratch could literally take hours. Then you would have to reconfigure all the settings for each program as well as any customizing you have done in Windows. Believe me, I have had to reinstall Windows and all of my programs on more than one occasion and it's not fun.

A full image backup of your hard drive is so much simpler. You know everything on the drive is protected and you can easily restore your programs, personal data, and settings. I just restored over 800GB of data to my new drive a couple days ago. It literally took me less than 5 minutes to set up the restore then I walked away while my computer spent the next 90+ minutes restoring my data to it's original state.