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Cut-Throat
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Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
Beautiful pictures.
Beautiful pictures.
Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
Thanks very much C-T. Love the picture.
I'm planning on helping with some excavations in Durango in May and will probably find time to visit the Mesa Verde ruins myself while I'm there.
I'm curious if you took any interpretive trips while you were there. There is an effort going on to eliminate usage of the term "Anasazi". It is suggested that the term "Ancestral Puebloan" be substituted. Supposedly, Mesa Verde is leading this effort. I've even heard rumors that Mesa Verde has stopped carrying any books or literature that uses the offending "Anasazi" term.
There are good reasons for this substitution of terms, but like so many PC movements it can also seem silly. I was just curious if you noticed any avoidance of the "Anasazi" reference.
Thanks very much C-T. Love the picture.
I'm planning on helping with some excavations in Durango in May and will probably find time to visit the Mesa Verde ruins myself while I'm there.I'm curious if you took any interpretive trips while you were there. There is an effort going on to eliminate usage of the term "Anasazi". It is suggested that the term "Ancestral Puebloan" be substituted. Supposedly, Mesa Verde is leading this effort. I've even heard rumors that Mesa Verde has stopped carrying any books or literature that uses the offending "Anasazi" term.
There are good reasons for this substitution of terms, but like so many PC movements it can also seem silly. I was just curious if you noticed any avoidance of the "Anasazi" reference.
Austin_Explorer
Recycles dryer sheets
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Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
The name is apparently from the Navajo language and means "enemy ancestors", something the Pueblo Indians don't much appreciate. I can see their point, but it is sometimes hard to switch. I've been familiar with the name for some time.
PC run amok? Maybe not. The stink over the use of "squaw", on the other hand, is PC run amok:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000317.html
I sat through a Native American narrative at Glacier Park Lodge that was otherwise enjoyable but I had to bite my tongue when he encouraged everyone to never use the term squaw again. I'm sure everyone else just ate it up and are now telling their friends back home.
The name is apparently from the Navajo language and means "enemy ancestors", something the Pueblo Indians don't much appreciate. I can see their point, but it is sometimes hard to switch. I've been familiar with the name for some time.
PC run amok? Maybe not. The stink over the use of "squaw", on the other hand, is PC run amok:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000317.html
I sat through a Native American narrative at Glacier Park Lodge that was otherwise enjoyable but I had to bite my tongue when he encouraged everyone to never use the term squaw again. I'm sure everyone else just ate it up and are now telling their friends back home.
haha
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
Be warned- we will be VERY sensitive to slights, aspersions, and all forms of mean nasty dirty things.
Mikey
Pretty soon the only ethnic groups anyone can crap on will be mine- the Irish, the Scotch-Irish, and the Germans. Maybe I'll start an Irish-Hillbilly-Hun Anti-Defamation league. Then we'll hire a good Jewish lawyer and kick the sh*t out of anybody who offends. Now that is something that might have enough appeal to lever me out of my retirement.
Be warned- we will be VERY sensitive to slights, aspersions, and all forms of mean nasty dirty things.
Mikey
Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
The Navajo probably didn't arrive in the Southwest till after the Spanish (after 1500). There were already whole cities of pueblo ruins that had been abandoned for hundreds of years by the time they got here. Their more nomadic lifestyle clashed with the existing puebloan cultures and there is still animosity between them today. But the Navajo were prolific and pervasive. Since the Spanish (and most Americans today) didn't know the difference they asked the Navajo about ruins and previous inhabitants. The Navajo named a lot of ruins with names that were derogatory Navajo words and named the culture we have been calling Anasazi -- which means ancient enemy.
All this has been known for at least several decades, but only recently (in the past several years) has there been any effort to "correct" it.
Austin Explorer's explanation is correct. Today's Hopi, Zuni, and other puebloan groups can trace their roots back to about the time of Christ. Actually, it probably runs about 10,000 years BC, but the cultural developments that we now associate with "Ancestral Puebloan" don't emerge till abou100 AD plus or minus a few hundred years. The ruins associated with Anasazi, Hohokam, Sinagua, etc. are the early villages of the modern puebloan cultures.SG, excuse me for being culturally illiterate, but
why is "Anasazi" offensive? Do I detect PC
running amok again?
Cheers,
Charlie
The Navajo probably didn't arrive in the Southwest till after the Spanish (after 1500). There were already whole cities of pueblo ruins that had been abandoned for hundreds of years by the time they got here. Their more nomadic lifestyle clashed with the existing puebloan cultures and there is still animosity between them today. But the Navajo were prolific and pervasive. Since the Spanish (and most Americans today) didn't know the difference they asked the Navajo about ruins and previous inhabitants. The Navajo named a lot of ruins with names that were derogatory Navajo words and named the culture we have been calling Anasazi -- which means ancient enemy.
All this has been known for at least several decades, but only recently (in the past several years) has there been any effort to "correct" it.
Hyperborea
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
As a Scottish citizen (as well as Canadian), it's Scot, Scots, or Scottish. Scotch is a drink.
Similar to the Anasazi name issue is the Eskimo versus Inuit name. Eskimo is a derogatory term from their southern neighbours (Cree and Algonquin).
As a Scottish citizen (as well as Canadian), it's Scot, Scots, or Scottish. Scotch is a drink.
Similar to the Anasazi name issue is the Eskimo versus Inuit name. Eskimo is a derogatory term from their southern neighbours (Cree and Algonquin).
haha
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
Mikey
Thank you so much, mi amigo del norte. But as I said, I am a hillbilly, so I can't really be expected to understand this level of sophistication.
Mikey
Mr._johngalt
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Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
SG and C-T "silly" is right. All of this PC crap makes me want to puke. Someone is offended by everything.
So what? They should suck it up and get a life (EOR).
JG
SG and C-T "silly" is right. All of this PC crap makes me want to puke. Someone is offended by everything.
So what? They should suck it up and get a life (EOR).
JG
Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
I had read that the word "Anasazi" had two meanings depending on pronunciation: "old people" or "enemy ancestors." Cordell agrees with SG above - she states that it was thought to originally mean the former but is now known to mean the latter. I'll have to find the source of the "two meanings" theory.
SG, I understood that the Hohokam and Mogollon (and Fremont, among others) cultures just...disappeared. They merged or were assimilated or died out and little is known of their current descendents, if any.
I had read that the word "Anasazi" had two meanings depending on pronunciation: "old people" or "enemy ancestors." Cordell agrees with SG above - she states that it was thought to originally mean the former but is now known to mean the latter. I'll have to find the source of the "two meanings" theory.
SG, I understood that the Hohokam and Mogollon (and Fremont, among others) cultures just...disappeared. They merged or were assimilated or died out and little is known of their current descendents, if any.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
According to an X-Files episode, it was very bad!!!
According to an X-Files episode, it was very bad!!!
Re: More Mesa Verde National Park Photos....
Linda Cordell has written one of the best fundamental books on Southwestern archaeology that I know of -- for those of you who didn't understand the eridanus reference. For many years, archaeologists have "pretended" that Anasazi means "ancient ones" instead of "ancient enemies". But I think it has been recognized for some time that this is not really true -- and that even if it were, it is inapropriate for the Navajo to write the history of modern puebloans.
It is certainly less clear what happened to the prehistoric Hohokam and Fremont than what happened to the Anasazi. But obviously they did not simply disappear. There are some genetic and liguistic studies as well as legends among existing puebloan groups and the Tohono O'odam that provide some indication of what happened to the Hohokam.
Linda Cordell has written one of the best fundamental books on Southwestern archaeology that I know of -- for those of you who didn't understand the eridanus reference. For many years, archaeologists have "pretended" that Anasazi means "ancient ones" instead of "ancient enemies". But I think it has been recognized for some time that this is not really true -- and that even if it were, it is inapropriate for the Navajo to write the history of modern puebloans.
It is certainly less clear what happened to the prehistoric Hohokam and Fremont than what happened to the Anasazi. But obviously they did not simply disappear. There are some genetic and liguistic studies as well as legends among existing puebloan groups and the Tohono O'odam that provide some indication of what happened to the Hohokam.
