Allowing Nations To Form Democracies In Their Own Style

[Danny]

That's a quote from President Bush.

This poor guy in Afganistan converted to Christianity and now faces the death penalty.

Police arrested Abdul Rahman last month after discovering him in possession of a Bible during a custody dispute regarding his two daughters.
A prosecutor has raised questions about his mental state and a cabinet minister said he would not be executed if he were found to be unstable.
"I'm not an apostate. I'm obedient to God but I'm a Christian, that's my choice," Rahman told the hearing. He also said he was not mentally ill and would defend himself.

http://tinyurl.com/fukle

The discussion about religious groups trying to use the Minnesota state constitution to ban gay marriage, made me think of what can happen when any particular group has too much power or when innocent people just going about their lives have to live/die under intolerance.

 

[Cool Dood]

So much for the theory that Bush went about crusading to colonize the middle east with Christian puppet regimes.........

 

[brewer12345]

So much for the theory that Bush went about crusading to colonize the middle east with Christian puppet regimes.........

Oh, I still think that a plausible case can be made for that as the intention, so long as you keep in mind the staggering incompetence of these clowns.

 

[Danny]

Oh, I still think that a plausible case can be made for that as the intention, so long as you keep in mind the staggering incompetence of these clowns.

That sums it up nicely. They aren't the funny clowns, but sad clowns that makes me wish they'd go away sooner than Jan 2009

 

[brewer12345]

That sums it up nicely. They aren't the funny clowns, but sad clowns that makes me wish they'd go away sooner than Jan 2009

You and me both. I think the quickest way would be a democratic congress (both houses) followed by impeachment hearings.

 

[Danny]

You and me both. I think the quickest way would be a democratic congress (both houses) followed by impeachment hearings.

I heard that was in the works if the Dems get control. They did it to Bill for lying about having sex (character issue) why not do it to W for lying to the world about reasons for going into Iraq and not having a plan for getting the peace and getting out (character flaw).
I'll take sexual misconduct by my elected officials anyday over what has happened the last 3 years and what looks like maybe another 3 or so.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Unfortunately, if you dont shootspray the next 5 guys in succession with bird pellets, you get pretty much the same thing.

As I said from the beginning, we went to Iraq because Saddam was holding on by his fingernails, so tentatively he pretended he might have WMD's to keep his neighbors from invading. Unfortunately for him, that gave us the reason to invade. Had we not gone in, the Iranian mullahs would have been running Iraq in a couple of years. If we leave now, same results and we'll be back over there in 3-5 years after Israel bombs the Iranian nuclear facilities and the 300,000ish Iranian army starts moving to push the Israelis into the ocean.

As far as instilling a democracy there or in Afghanistan, history says that the region will not sustain such a political construction as there is no clear majority and the minority groups like to kill each other a lot until a strongman makes them stop and toe the line.

Did we have to go? Probably. If we like that "oil" stuff. A consolidated Iran/Iraq military would be roughly the same size as our own, and while nowhere near as well equipped, they're on home soil.

Can we leave? Probably not ever. As long as we need oil and have political interests in the region (like Israel) we'll probably have to maintain a significant force there. Heck, we had a hell of a lot of soldiers in Korea and Germany and they werent all trying to kill each other.

 

[Sheryl]

Much as I despise Bush and abhor what he's done,  I'm not sure dragging the country through another impeachment and the resultant media circus is the way to go.  

It would be stooping to their level, and we would deteriorate even further into petty childish squabbling.  I would be embarrassed by the speeches we would have to listen to from both sides.

I'm in favor of (figuratively) emasculating him and his administration by having a Democratic Congress step up and run the country the country in a way we can be proud of.  The best we could hope for would be an irrelevant White House for the next few years.

 

[Danny]

Much as I despise Bush and abhor what he's done, I'm not sure dragging the country through another impeachment and the resultant media circus is the way to go.

It would be stooping to their level, and we would deteriorate even further into petty childish squabbling. I would be embarrassed by the speeches we would have to listen to from both sides.

I'm in favor of (figuratively) emasculating him and his administration by having a Democratic Congress step up and run the country the country in a way we can be proud of. The best we could hope for would be an irrelevant White House for the next few years.

Sheryl - Those are good points. I would also rather have an alternative -
Something cleaner and quicker - like a coup - Colin Powell/Chuck Hagel can replace Bush/Cheney( ) they can work with the congress to get our house back in order.

 

[brewer12345]

Unfortunately, if you dont shootspray the next 5 guys in succession with bird pellets, you get pretty much the same thing.

While I confess that I wouldn't mind seeing them all "sprayed", I'd settle for a liberal distribution of Congressional subpoenas.

I would be perfectly happy to see the rest of the current occupant's term spent in impeachment proceedings, criminal investigations, etc. It couldn't possibly be worse than what we have been subjected to over the past 5 years.

 

[Sheryl]

Something cleaner and quicker - like a coup - Colin Powell/Chuck Hagel can replace Bush/Cheney( ) they can work with the congress to get our house back in order.

Yes, at this point, a coup sounds like a good thing.

 

[Danny]

Yes, at this point, a coup sounds like a good thing.

I just want to shout out to Homeland Security/FBI and the SS we're just kidding..hehheheheheheh

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Come on...george would just declare martial law, 'temporarily' set aside the elections, suspend the constitution and say its because people who hate america want us to be less safe and he cant allow the terrorists to win because they might have WMD's. Then Dick could shoot someone just to further make the point.

 

[Cool Dood]

Wow, there's some deranged stuff in this thread... I stand by my diagnosis of BDS.....

 

[Nords]

As I said from the beginning, we went to Iraq because Saddam was holding on by his fingernails, so tentatively he pretended he might have WMD's to keep his neighbors from invading.  Unfortunately for him, that gave us the reason to invade.  Had we not gone in, the Iranian mullahs would have been running Iraq in a couple of years.  If we leave now, same results and we'll be back over there in 3-5 years after Israel bombs the Iranian nuclear facilities and the 300,000ish Iranian army starts moving to push the Israelis into the ocean.

While I can believe that Saddam was bluffing his assets off, I've never ever heard of his reign or his country being in jeopardy (other than from U.S. intervention), most especially not from Iranian mullahs.  Can you provide any links on this?

Something cleaner and quicker - like a coup - Colin Powell/Chuck Hagel can replace Bush/Cheney( ) they can work with the congress to get our house back in order.

I voted for Colin Powell, but I think that he's way too smart to get sucked back into the White House.  He spent an entire military career there and knows far too much about it to want to go back.  His military pension alone must be over $125K/year with lifetime COLA & medical-- not bad for a guy whose hobby is rebuilding old Volvos!

Now Michael Powell may be another story...

 

[brewer12345]

Let's just hope we get a Feingold-Murtha ticket to vote for next time.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

While I can believe that Saddam was bluffing his assets off, I've never ever heard of his reign or his country being in jeopardy (other than from U.S. intervention), most especially not from Iranian mullahs. Can you provide any links on this?

I'll get you some later. Grumpy baby right now. There is by no means any shortage of data, so some googles might give you better stuff than i'll come up with. Basically the iranian mullahs have been pressing their iraqi counterparts and followers for decades to overthrow the baathists. The turks have been periodically drooling for the past fifty years. Several constituencies within the country have attempted or were pondering separation/civil war. Since the first gulf war we've frittered away saddams military strength. He had a bunch of poorly trained soldiers that well filled the old joke after the first gulf war "iraqi rifle for sale, never used, dropped once". No operable air force.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I've never ever heard of his reign or his country being in jeopardy (other than from U.S. intervention), most especially not from Iranian mullahs. Can you provide any links on this?

Sorry, forgot about this yesterday amidst the mayhem that is baby.

This is a good jumping off point. I started reading about the interactions (good and bad) between iran, iraq, turkey, afghanistan, saudi arabia and israel (and a cast of thousands!)...about 25 years ago when I was required to register for the draft and it looked like I might be shooting at soviets over the heads of osama bin laden and his friend in afghanistan.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9540.htm

Do further googling on "Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq".

 

[Cool Dood]

By Juan Cole

lollolollololololollololololololololol

 

[LRS]

(earlier)
>Something cleaner and quicker - like a coup - Colin Powell/Chuck Hagel can replace >Bush/Cheney( ) they can work with the congress to get our house back in order.

>Yes, at this point, a coup sounds like a good thing.   

I think we've already been "couped." Twice. It was not a good thing.

And, as much as I hate to say it, being a US citizen and accostomed to freedom of speech, but I think you need to be very careful bandying terms like "coup" around on the internet. Remember, W and his henchmen don't need to worry about getting legal warrents any more in order to spy on citizens

 

[Danny]

I think we've already been "couped." Twice. It was not a good thing.

And, as much as I hate to say it...but I think you need to be very careful bandying terms like "coup" around on the internet. Remember, W and his henchmen don't need to worry about getting legal warrents any more in order to spy on citizens

I just want to shout out to Homeland Security/FBI and the SS we're just kidding..hehheheheheheh

Tawny - you are so right. It bears repeating. I hope the software program they use to sniff the internet understands sardonic irony or was it wry sarcasm used in an ironic manner...I don't think I understand irony myself....any English majors out there, I know there are some tightasses uptight dudes here who are into correcting people's spelling...
Well, anyway, if you don't hear from me for a good long while, will you guys miss me enough to get your kayaks and pancakes out and come down to Cuba and put a good word in for me or are you going to just forget and go on with your self-centered ER life or your self-centered pursuit of ER life....

 

[LRS]

I know the FBI don't understand sarcasm or wit. Here's a story from the United States during WW2: A great-aunt of mine was at her regular card game with a bunch of elderly friends. Someone made a comment on a mutuall friend, who had recently changed her name from an obviously German form--eg., Schmidt--to an Americanized form, like Smith. This in order to escape the strong anti-German sentiment in the States during the war.

My great aunt snorted and said "I am proud to be a German-American! Having a German name is nothing to be ashamed of!"

And within the week, she was picked up and interrogated by the FBI. She had been turned in by a "friend." She, born in the US and a proud citizen, was made to defend her patriotism to a goon squad.

It has happened here before, it can happen again.

Did I mention we were fighting Hitler during that war? Or that the ladies had just attended a pancake supper?

 

[Danny]

Holy crap!

 

[Maximillion]

Should not these postings be at, Is any one worried about the state of our country

 

[Danny]

Should not these postings be at, Is any one worried about the state of our country

I guess they could Max, sure, but they're not, they're here.