Reasonable Cost of a central air/furnace unit??

[FinanceDude]

I keep getting these desperate letters from all the HVAC guys in my area that "want to keep their guys working", etc.

My current unit is 18 years old, and although it runs well, I am sure the efficiency is way down, plus, it's pretty loud when the blower kicks in.

I live in the Midwest, and have about 2200 square feet of house. I have been getting some quotes, but they all seem like a lot of money...........$5000-$10000.

Ideas? Just don't want to be stupid about it..............

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

"It depends".

All new ductwork or reuse the existing? If new, highly insulated (recommended for a very cold or very hot area)?

Efficiency rating desired?

4000-6000 installed for a pretty decent system in that size home is realistic. 10k for a high efficiency system with a lot of new highly insulated ductwork is a bit high but not that bad.

In my experience, the systems manufacturer and a lot of the specs pale in comparison to how well the system is installed. I have a great system that was installed, to be kind to their intelligence, by a bunch of sight impaired drunks. Works terribly and unfortunately, resolving what they screwed up would cost so much I might as well hang in there and wait until the unit needs replacing.

So find a great installer that knows their stuff, and perhaps worry a bit less about which model they're installing.

 

[uncledrz]

I have a great system that was installed, to be kind to their intelligence, by a bunch of sight impaired drunks.

FD
CFB makes a good point about the quality of the workmanship. Also about the type of system. If you are going both new furnace and ac, 4-6,000. probably not too far out of line, if fully installed and guaranteed by a reputable company. Do the BBB thing, also go with a major manufacture's installation company.

 

[justin]

I'd say $5k might be about right. Does it make sense to wait until spring when the demand might be much less? HVAC guys might be more willing to negotiate a little just to keep their crews busy when no one is calling for heat/AC repairs or new furnace installs.

 

[saluki9]

We have a 2500sq ft house with a 30 year old furnace. I had a quote from last week to install a new Carrier 2 state and a new a/c coil for $3,400. Go figure, on the same quote was a proposal to install a heater for my 400sq ft garage which would cost $2,400. Something doesn't seem right

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I'm betting they "forgot" something on that $3400 quote.

Also make sure to check your local utility company for available rebates, and look for state and federal tax incentives for specific high efficiency heating and cooling products.

 

[Lazarus]

I have an 1800 sq. ft. house. I had the central air and heat 'electric', replaced several years ago. About 4K then. I live in the south with a short heating season so I didn't go for a heat pump.

I have thought in my retirement house I may well use window units. I can buy a lot of them for 4K.

 

[5j404]

Check in to an energy credit you can take this and next year if you replace with effeciant model. (2006-2008)
We missed it cause ours died at the age of 20 in 2005

not sure of house size but average 25year old 4 bedroom replacement system was $6000

 

[jazz4cash]

What type of unit do you currently have (gas/electric/heat pump)?
What exactly are you replacing: heating unit/cooling unit/both?
What capacity are the replacement units? (BTUs for heat/Tons or BTUs cooling)
What is the efficiency rating of the new unit(s)

If you know these variables, it would be a lot easier to compare. You should probably expect reasonable payback given the age of your unit. Fuel costs and labor costs in the Midwest are probably favorable compared to East Coast.
The guys sending the letters are probably NOT the most efficient ones to deal with, but don't go cheap either. I would think the mid to lower end of that range should be reasonable.

 

[thefed]

here's something to chew on:

your parts for the ac unit will cost the company approx 750 bucks
the furnace itself will cost NO MORE than 1000 (carrier/trane) To be frugal, i'd even go with a ducane (sp?) or goodman, either will last you 15 yrs and can be had for 600 bucks or so

Install should take about 6 hours...even at 60/hr labor times two guys.....



are you handy at all? surprisingly a furnace is a simple undertaking

 

[thefed]

here's something to chew on:

your parts for the ac unit will cost the company approx 750 bucks
the furnace itself will cost NO MORE than 1000 (carrier/trane) To be frugal, i'd even go with a ducane (sp?) or goodman, either will last you 15 yrs and can be had for 600 bucks or so

Install should take about 6 hours...even at 60/hr labor times two guys.....


edit: i quoted prices on 80% efficient furnaces, obviously higher efficiency = more $$
are you handy at all? surprisingly a furnace is a simple undertaking

 

[jazz4cash]

here's something to chew on:

your parts for the ac unit will cost the company approx 750 bucks
the furnace itself will cost NO MORE than 1000 (carrier/trane) To be frugal, i'd even go with a ducane (sp?) or goodman, either will last you 15 yrs and can be had for 600 bucks or so

Install should take about 6 hours...even at 60/hr labor times two guys.....



are you handy at all? surprisingly a furnace is a simple undertaking

Our house is 7 years old. We've replaced some major components on both of the GOODMAN systems installed by the builder. These were "builder grade" units and the quality is not as good as what resellers usually offer. This could be a real problem if you select the cheapest unit you can find (or shop HD). One component was obviously flawed from day one and failed about 30 days out of warranty, but the GOODMAN customer service was a joke. FWIW, labor around here can run $100/man-hr......so I wish I had your connections to get this done less expensively.

 

[LOL!]

We had to a Trane XR12 outdoor A/C compressor/condensor and indoor coils installed for $2400. This replaced an older system hit by lightning that exploded. This unit cools the upstairs only. We have a second separate system that does the downstairs.

We did get a quote that was double that for the EXACT same hardware.

 

[FinanceDude]

What type of unit do you currently have (gas/electric/heat pump)?
What exactly are you replacing: heating unit/cooling unit/both?
What capacity are the replacement units? (BTUs for heat/Tons or BTUs cooling)
What is the efficiency rating of the new unit(s)

If you know these variables, it would be a lot easier to compare. You should probably expect reasonable payback given the age of your unit. Fuel costs and labor costs in the Midwest are probably favorable compared to East Coast.
The guys sending the letters are probably NOT the most efficient ones to deal with, but don't go cheap either. I would think the mid to lower end of that range should be reasonable.

Have gas furnace, electric AC. I have been told its a "5-ton" unit...........I hav eno idea what that means.

It's a Tempstar, which I am told is lower end. It is 18 years old, and maybe was 60% efficient when it was new............

 

[samclem]

I bought my Goodman gas furnace from a dealer called Alpine Home Air, and installed it myself. I had to fabricate a new enclosure for the "A" coil (the A/C condenser coil), and some other parts. It was a good project (it had all the elements: explosive gases, electricity, power tools). I'd only attempt to do an AC install if I could find a trained AC tech to connect the pressure lines and inspect my work.

I've been happy with the Goodman furnace, and their AC units come with a good warrantee. They manufacture their own compressors, which are also built into the AC units of some other manufacturers. Dealers of "brand name" equipment will say bad things about Goodman, but they are fine.

Anyway, this web site will show you what the retail price of the components themselves are.
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I have been told its a "5-ton" unit...........I hav eno idea what that means.

Tonnage refers to overall cooling capacity
http://www.proctoreng.com/articles/bigger.html

As this article recommends, "going bigger" on air conditioning can be counterproductive and a waste of money. In a nutshell, compressors are at their most efficient when running and startups are expensive. An oversized unit will turn on and off a lot more than a right-sized unit, wasting money. The only downside to an undersized unit is that it may not keep up with the load on the very hottest days of the year.

Five tons is a shitload. I have an 1800 square foot house in an area that regularly sits in the 100-110 degree range for days/weeks at a time, for much of the summer...I think I have a 3.5 ton unit.

The efficiency on your old unit is probably so low that by switching to a higher efficiency unit you'll probably get a payback in 7-10 years max.

For folks talking about using window a/c units, theres an interesting alternative I've been looking at to 'help' during the hottest days. There is a mini-split system (many makers) that has a small outdoor compressor about the size of a costco-size bucket of laundry detergent and a unit that mounts on a wall inside. Drill a 3" hole, run a single hose/wire package through it that has a condenser line and power from the head unit to the outdoor unit. Plug it in and you're good to go. Many of them are pre-pressurized with refrigerant so that once you connect the hoses the system pressurizes. I think by code you're still supposed to have an AC guy come out and check for leaks. But basically if you can drill a 3" hole in your houses exterior without fear, you can install a 12-16k+ btu air conditioner that looks good, doesnt tie up a window, and has all the noise outside. Some come with multiple "head" units that feed off the same compressor. I've seen 12k btu refurbs selling for $300-400 on amazon, although a new unit in the 16k+ range is often $1000 and up. Great way to resolve that "warm part of the house", cool a small home addition or supplement an existing older unit without replacing it.

Examples:
http://www.ac-world.com/SplitAir.php

 

[USK Coastie]

To add to CFB's post, a five ton may be too much but if you have a lot of high humidity days in the summer it may well be sized correctly. If labor is $100/hr/man a price if 5000 is about right. For the lower efficient units jazz4cash is about right for pricing if you can find them. The FEDs changed the rules again and all of the lower efficiency units had to be discontinued so you'd be buying an orphan.

 

[samclem]

Humidity does add to the load on the AC, but getting one that is too big actually leads to less comfort in higher humidity. To dehumidify, you want to pass a large volume of air through the unit during its cycle, so that a lot of water will be removed and the house made more comfortabe. A larger unit will run less air through the unit, but have a bigger temp drop for the air moved through it. The house will reach the desired temp before enough water has been removed, and the house will feel clammy.

If you are going to get the unit replaced by a pro, make sure they do a real heat calculation for your house (using the method from "AHSRAE Manual J.") Most HVAC guys that came to my house for the furnace just looked at the data plate on the old unit or asked me the square footage of the house and used a rule-of-thumb--WRONG.

Here's a good calculator for doing it yourself, if you'd like:
http://mrhvac.com/loadcalcshortform.htm

 

[thefed]

Our house is 7 years old. We've replaced some major components on both of the GOODMAN systems installed by the builder. These were "builder grade" units and the quality is not as good as what resellers usually offer. This could be a real problem if you select the cheapest unit you can find (or shop HD). One component was obviously flawed from day one and failed about 30 days out of warranty, but the GOODMAN customer service was a joke. FWIW, labor around here can run $100/man-hr......so I wish I had your connections to get this done less expensively.

was your problem with the ehat exchanger? goodman got lots of bad publicity about their cust serrvice and overall quality in the late 90's, but they've done a good job correcting those problems on late rmodels


i guess just take it fwiw

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I've seen a few heat exchangers crack prematurely from using those "filtrete" air filters. Worst product on the market, IMO. Many heating/ac units dont get the airflow they require with one of those installed, causing the fan to kick into a higher speed (if its available) and cracking the heat exchangers or freezing the a/c coils.

Very bad news. Check with your manufacturer and you may find that about 95% of them do not recommend using them.

You can have the intake opening enlarged on installation or aftermarket to account for the reduced air flow. That having been said, I read an interesting site a year or two ago that produced a fairly comprehensive study of these 'allergen removal furnace filters' that showed they werent particularly effective either.

 

[thefed]

I've seen a few heat exchangers crack prematurely from using those "filtrete" air filters. Worst product on the market, IMO. Many heating/ac units dont get the airflow they require with one of those installed, causing the fan to kick into a higher speed (if its available) and cracking the heat exchangers or freezing the a/c coils.

Very bad news. Check with your manufacturer and you may find that about 95% of them do not recommend using them.

You can have the intake opening enlarged on installation or aftermarket to account for the reduced air flow. That having been said, I read an interesting site a year or two ago that produced a fairly comprehensive study of these 'allergen removal furnace filters' that showed they werent particularly effective either.

Filtrete filters are no worse than the next, imho, BUT when you get careless and dont change them every 30 dys, you have issues. Ive studied a lot of this because I sell permanent washable electrostatic filters on ebay.

 

[jazz4cash]

was your problem with the ehat exchanger? goodman got lots of bad publicity about their cust serrvice and overall quality in the late 90's, but they've done a good job correcting those problems on late rmodels


i guess just take it fwiw

The problem we had was the capillary tubes on the metering valve....extremely poor workmanship on the solder joints......I figured they could be repaired, but of course nobody repairs anything these days....strictly remove and replace. What ticked me off was I called Goodman...unit was 30 days out of warranty, so I asked for goodwill...they literally laughed at me....so I asked for a discount using the logic that, this one looks like crap...why would I want to replace it with another Goodman part? ....more snickering. I told the repair guys to buy "any brand except Goodman".

Five tons of cooling is HUGE. One ton is 12,000 BTu/hr. New units are supposed to be very efficient. The efficiency rating (SEER) should be over 10, but 12-14 is better. I can't imagine you need that much cooling ( is it MN?). Heating units would be more like 60-90,000 BTU and efficiency should be >90%. I think you should shop around for more quotes and get the energy audit.

Todays Trivia: Cooling is measured tons because one ton of ice has 12,000 BTU's of cooling capacity.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Filtrete filters are no worse than the next, imho, BUT when you get careless and dont change them every 30 dys, you have issues. Ive studied a lot of this because I sell permanent washable electrostatic filters on ebay.

Not picking on filtrete...I meant any filter other than the standard fiberglass job that the manufacturers expect you to use.

I learned from the cracked heat exchanger on my 7 year old high end Rheem system, and heard about it from the two repairmen that came out to look at it. They said they have a much higher incidence of cracked exchangers among 'allergen' filter users.

Not to cast dispersions on your business (although i'm about to), most allergens dont stay airborne long enough or get high enough off the floor to be pulled into an intake. If you seriously want to go the whole 9 yards I'll be glad to pull up the well done science I've seen that shows the filters remove almost nothing. I'm a bit overly educated in the matter because my wife has fierce allergies, severe asthma, and is a respiratory care specialist.

The big problems in these cases are from people walking around, sitting down on a chair/sofa, or other activities that cause a short term dispersal of allergens that were laying on a horizontal surface, most of which end up right back on the horizontal surface again in a minute or two.

Smoke and other very, very fine particles that stay airborne a while might be filtered out to a reasonable level if you leave the circulation fan in the heating unit running all the time. Otherwise most systems simply dont run long enough, often enough, to provide enough total cycle time to remove enough of the particles from the air.

Most stand-alone air purifiers suck too. While they have a decent psychological impact, most in-room tests show that they're pretty iffy on improving air quality very much.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Resurrecting this one for a couple of different questions...

The furnace/ac unit in my new house is 17 years old. In decent shape and it might run another couple of years before upchucking something expensive. Considering its 100 degrees + up this way and air conditioning guys are pretty much slammed in the summertime, I might have to wait 4-5 weeks to get a unit repaired. Sort of starting to consider replacing the unit proactively in the next 4-5 months.

Two of the things i'm considering if I do this are an integral air cleaner and humidity control, and the UV light to kill mold in the unit. Every time I take my current unit apart for cleaning, its got a half inch of mold growing in the condensation tray. I have some good allergy problems and my wife is allergic and asthmatic.

Anyone investigate these? Are they worth it? Do they work?

 

[Telly]

I'm skeptical about the UV light idea. Not listed in the brochures is the fact that the bulb's UV output declines greatly after a year, so have to replace the bulb once a year to keep the original concept going. The bulbs are big bucks.

I have seen a few reasons for excessive mold growth - Dirt that makes it though the filter in operation gets caught by the wet coil, creates a nice enviro as some of it drips off and builds up in the pan. Not enough slope on the unit to direct all water out the drain. Drain pan water outlet not extending exactly to the bottom of the side wall of the pan, leaving a "step" in effect right below the outlet that keeps a layer of water in.

Our furnaces are attic mounted horizontals. As I have replaced them, I did the same, suspended from the rafters. I put enough slope towards the outlets. So the whole return plenum, filter, any transitions, the furnace itself, evaporator case, and supply plenum all have some tilt together as a unit. This is in addition to any tilt of the drain pan in the evap case itself.

On the big unit I used a Honeywell F300 series electrostatic air cleaner. Has two expanded metal pre-filters in parallel, then the two grid units in parallel, then two post-filters in parallel. All are washable in detergent and warm water. That is for the unit that runs the day area of the house.

For the bedroom area, for the smaller unit I used a Honeywell F200 series 4 inch thick media filter setup, MERV 11 filtering. As this unit is only 2 Tons, I made a transition to use a big 20x25 filter box, as the price was the same no matter the size of the filter. So I have a real big filter on a small furnace. I sized the return plenum to match the filter box, then the transition narrows it down in total height to match the furnace return air input. My goal was to get at least 1 year of life out of the media filter. I'm heading ito year #2 on the same filter, looks good. The F200E comes with a dirty-filter pressure drop sensor, with a remote RF monitoring unit. It also has a 12 month timer in it, which I reset over a month ago when it timed out.

I do not know what method of "humidity control" you are considering.