Living decisions in late retirement

[JoeWras]

I've just spent the last few months getting my father situated in a senior living arrangement. He really waited too long to do this on his own. He's mostly with us, but physical fragility and creeping dementia has necessitated that my siblings and I help him in these decisions and his move.

It has gone very well -- although my siblings and I are worn out!

It was a lot of work, from making sure all the legal documents were up to date, to the physical move, to deciding on splitting Dad's possessions that he's not taking with him in his downsized arrangement.

So, I started thinking, what about me? I have no kids!

Speaking with some friends, they say: "You are lucky, no kid fights." But this isn't always true. My siblings and I have gotten along fine. We're closer than ever with each other and Dad. I think people who say that mostly are joking, although having seen the mess some kids are in, maybe not.

But anyway... DW and I have each others as POAs, etc. But when one of us passes first, who will take care of the other? We're not too confident with the crop of nieces and nephews, although one or two stand out as being upstanding enough to do the job, perhaps with compensation. It is time for us to update our legal work, and I'd like to get some contingents in there on this round.

I just don't know what to do here. Distant family member? A professional? I'm clueless. Everyone I know in this situation has had someone looking out for them, always a child.

Any insights?

 

[rodi]

Like you - we've been knee deep in eldercare issues.
My sister is child-free like you, as is my best friend of 30 years... and I've had long discussions with both of them about just this issue. We've all been dealing with eldercare issues with parents and in-laws.

Their first line of attack is to be extra nice to my kids. LOL. They remind my kids that family doesn't mean just mom and dad.

My sister and BIL have discussed an assisted living community - the same one my BIL's mom was in for about 10 years. They have LTCI. They have assets. It will just be a matter of picking the time to move.

My best friend and her husband are considering, when the time comes, a CCRC type scenario. She's currently dealing with her parents (supplementing their SS because they didn't save enough to cover their expenses.) She wants to NOT be in the same situation as them. If they cashed out their real estate they'd be able to afford the buy in.

Both have also discussed - in the far future, signing over POAs (and hanging onto them) to close nephews/nieces... for my sister that would likely be my sons. (Who are still minors, so this is VERY long term planning.)

The problem with planning for dementia, etc... is you need to have someone legally able to take over. Real life example playing out right now in my family. FIL has had dementia and been wheel chair bound for more than a decade. MIL has been his caregiver. She had POA for him. He could not sign over POA to anyone else since the dementia became an issue. (Not competant.) She was the only one legally able to make decisions for him - and was no longer making good decisions. She is showing clear signs of dementia (although early) and is no longer able to be his caregiver. (She's in her mid 80's... physically she can't do it anymore.) She's in denial that she needs help, or that he should be in a home. We're in the legal process of getting conservatorship/guardianship of both of them. (Trial is next week.)

Do you have trusted friends who are younger? You could sign POAs for them - but not turn them over till needed. Nephews/nieces?

The key is to get the notorized POA done ahead of the need. You can keep custody of it - so it can't be used until later. But it has to be done while you're still of sound mind.

 

[youbet]

I just don't know what to do here. Distant family member? A professional? I'm clueless. Everyone I know in this situation has had someone looking out for them, always a child.

The parents of friends of ours used an attorney who specialized in managing seniors' final years. It seemed to work well. I don't know all the details but I believe it involved a trust with the attorney managing it. And, BTW, they had children but felt they didn't want to bother them with the duties and also felt the boys weren't going to be as concerned or competent as desired.

I'd go to an attorney who specializes in this sort of thing and see if he/she has any ideas. I don't think you're at any disadvantage whatsoever. Folks with kids have the issue of wondering if the kids will be in agreement on how to handle things, whether the kids will manage things to maximize inheritance, etc.

 

[JoeWras]

My best friend and her husband are considering, when the time comes, a CCRC type scenario. She's currently dealing with her parents (supplementing their SS because they didn't save enough to cover their expenses.) She wants to NOT be in the same situation as them. If they cashed out their real estate they'd be able to afford the buy in.

This is possible. In my dad's dealings, we've visited CCRCs. But mentally I'm not there yet. Also not age eligible yet. I am keeping an an open mind about them.

However, even if in a CCRC, I'd want someone looking out for me if I need to transition from say, independence to memory care.

Do you have trusted friends who are younger? You could sign POAs for them - but not turn them over till needed. Nephews/nieces?

The key is to get the notorized POA done ahead of the need. You can keep custody of it - so it can't be used until later. But it has to be done while you're still of sound mind.

Ah, that's a good point.

We have a crop of nieces/nephews. Most will have matured enough (older than 30) in 10 years or so that we could re-visit the idea then.

Meanwhile, I'm thinking for the next 10 years, we can name siblings as contingents for POA. I'm thinking of the bad case of getting in an accident where one of us passes, and the other needs assistance...

We can't name our siblings forever since both DW and I are the young 'uns in the lots. We are young by many years than any of our siblings.

I'd go to an attorney who specializes in this sort of thing and see if he/she has any ideas. I don't think you're at any disadvantage whatsoever. Folks with kids have the issue of wondering if the kids will be in agreement on how to handle things, whether the kids will manage things to maximize inheritance, etc.

We're lucky. We are in total agreement so far.

We'll be visiting an attorney in a few months and will start discussing this in depth. The advice should be well worth it.

 

[calmloki]

Yeah, this topic scares us. We are lucky enough to have a non-family young friend - lived with us for a year or so, my gal carried him on her hip when he was a baby, sold him a house, loaned him money, have him working part time for us, sit on his kid... We're kinda counting on him and the good thing is he is proven solid.

His plan, which is sorta serious, is to buy 15-20 acres, put up a tall fence and shanties, and care for all the elderfolk he has in his life. Images of senile old folk wandering free on a farm upstate bouncing off the trees and border fences....

 

[Sarah in SC]

His plan, which is sorta serious, is to buy 15-20 acres, put up a tall fence and shanties, and care for all the elderfolk he has in his life. Images of senile old folk wandering free on a farm upstate bouncing off the trees and border fences....

I'm planning something like that, except with Hooters Girls to wait on the old guys.

Seriously, my sister's husband is our executor/trustee so we would be likely to ask him as we get closer to the age this kind of talk happens. Their kids are good, but the oldest isn't but 13 now, so not likely to be able to judge competence for a long time. If you don't have someone good in the wings, might be better to choose a pro, like a trusted attorney.

 

[imoldernu]

There are no really good shortcuts to learning about senior care or senior law.
The ARE hundreds of websites, and not all are good.

The two words to get started with, are Elderlaw, and Eldercare. Google these words, and look for .com, .net, and .org for the better sites.

Since legal fees can be high, I would suggest ...
First, going to any free website, that walks you through creating a will or a trust. The site will also suggest ancillary will-related legal documents such as Power of Attorney, and Living Wills.
Not only will these sites take you through the documents that you'll need, but will ask questions that force you to think through the terms of wills and trusts.

At $200 to $300 per hour, most attorneys will be glad to educate on the legalities. Doing it yourself... first... can lower or eliminate the overall expense. We found that doing our homework first, prepared us to ask the questions we needed to know about when we had the will reviewed and drawn up by the attorney... At at total of $200...it was much less than the average of $1,000+ , and we felt more confident when it was finalized.

My other recommendation would be to go only to an elderlaw attorney.

Most of this is covered in this thread, which, while long, covers some additional information about Continued Care, as well as other things that popped up over the past 24 years.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/sharing-23-years-of-frugal-retirement-62251-3.html

Good luck... you are embarking on a tough journey, but the more you learn, the better off you'll be, both mentally, and financially.

 

[JoeWras]

Yeah, this topic scares us. We are lucky enough to have a non-family young friend - lived with us for a year or so, my gal carried him on her hip when he was a baby, sold him a house, loaned him money, have him working part time for us, sit on his kid... We're kinda counting on him and the good thing is he is proven solid.

His plan, which is sorta serious, is to buy 15-20 acres, put up a tall fence and shanties, and care for all the elderfolk he has in his life. Images of senile old folk wandering free on a farm upstate bouncing off the trees and border fences....

Well, the topic is not fun. Too many people stick their head in the sand and get in trouble later. Denial, denial.

Mom and Dad did good planning when they were in their early 70's. All we had to do was "tweak" the paperwork this last go round. We also know Mom and Dad's wishes exactly since it is written down, and we've discussed it frequently the last 15 years. Never a pleasant discussion, but a necessary one.

Now Dad is getting beyond understanding it, so we are glad we know his wishes.

As for your friend and his "farm": hey that's probably how some retirement homes were started!

 

[aja8888]

Images of senile old folk wandering free on a farm upstate bouncing off the trees and border fences....

As long as there are a few horses and cows to talk with, it's probably a good arrangement...

 

[JoeWras]

There are no really good shortcuts to learning about senior care or senior law.
...
My other recommendation would be to go only to an elderlaw attorney.

Most of this is covered in this thread, which, while long, covers some additional information about Continued Care, as well as other things that popped up over the past 24 years.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/sharing-23-years-of-frugal-retirement-62251-3.html

Good luck... you are embarking on a tough journey, but the more you learn, the better off you'll be, both mentally, and financially.

I've appreciated your posts, imoldernu. I really like the thread above.

You also have good insights on moving through these phases, which is appreciated.

As for the lawyer: Mom and Dad used an elderlaw attorney and we're glad they did. I agree with that advice. This is not a "side job" to him, it is actually a calling.

Now, DW and I just need to find a good one in our area.

 

[HFWR]

As long as there are a few horses and cows to talk with, it's probably a good arrangement...

I like the Hooter's girls idea myself. Just right for the dirty old man I [-]am[/-] expect to become...

 

[Sarah in SC]

I like the Hooter's girls idea myself. Just right for the dirty old man I [-]am[/-] expect to become...

Don't worry, I'm saving you a room next to my DH!

 

[youbet]

I'm planning something like that, except with Hooters Girls to wait on the old guys.

I was recently reviewing my plans to self-insure LTC with my son. He noted that I allowed $100k/yr for care and questioned if that might be too much. I answered "they charge extra when your attendents are attractive young women dressed as French maids."

His only response was to ask me to try to identify where he'd go to arrange that service for me since he wasn't quite sure where to start. Good boy.

 

[JoeWras]

I was recently reviewing my plans to self-insure LTC with my son. He noted that I allowed $100k/yr for care and questioned if that might be too much. I answered "they charge extra when your attendents are attractive young women dressed as French maids."

His only response was to ask me to try to identify where he'd go to arrange that service for me since he wasn't quite sure where to start. Good boy.

I need to start having this discussion with my nephews.

 

[donheff]

Both of our kids seem trustworthy for managing our assets but maybe a bit lacking in knowledge. I'm not too worried about that since DW and i were no more knowledgeable at their ages. We have trusts and wills setup but I still worry about when and how to relinquish control. It seems like people head down the road to dementia and end up past the point of making rational decisions before they know it. How to recognize that the time has come...

 

[foxfirev5]

It feels like we just got the kids out of the house and now we're on to the next phase. My mother is eventually going to need help. With no siblings and being 500 miles away I can already see the challenge. We have family friend who ER'd and immediately became family caregiver because all here siblings had jobs (needed to work) and she was retired. Therefore she had nothing better to do and could take care of everybody.

 

[KB]

When my parents were in their early 80s, they bought a retirement apartment in a retirement system with 3 levels. Self sustaining, assisted care and full care.

They are still in the self care level living in their apartment without help. However, the system provides weekly house cleaning, quarterly deep cleaning and meals. They do need to check in daily to ensure they are well and have not fallen or have a medical emergency.

Part of the monthly fee included Long term care insurance which will kick in when they move into the full care unit. They purchased a cremation plan, so everything is pretty much taken care of.

The retirement center will take them to any appointments if needed, however my Dad still drives at 92. So, he takes them where they need to go.

So far nothing has cropped up that they did not anticipate and prepare for. I do live about 3 hours away, but am available if needed.. and with the 2 of them still in pretty good health, they do pretty well in their environment.

 

[Midpack]

It is a tough subject. My parents are both 91 and I honestly wonder sometimes if they both stay alive because they're worried about who will take care of the other when one of them goes. They are very dependent on each other now. But my sister and I will take care of them, and other than their house full of possesions (that we can't get them to part with), all their affairs are well in order (trusts, where to live, etc.).

As for DW & I and my sister, we don't have any kids between us, so who knows. I suspect we'll end up relying on professionals, and hope we have the necessary resources when the time comes in (hopefully) about 35 years.

Tough subject, worthy of serious discussion...

 

[Marita40]

No spouse and no kids here. This is a topic that frankly scares me. I have LTC insurance, and my plan (such as it is) would be to do what KB's parents did (see post above), buy into a "tiered" retirement home. The question would be, when? That's the unknown.

 

[JoeWras]

It is a tough subject, and it is scary. We all have to deal with it though. If we don't, we have the possibility of our estate and OURSELVES being treated in ways we cannot imagine.

Thankfully, my parents did the proper set-up with an elderlaw attorney. Dad has been trying to express some things and we understand what he's saying, but it is really good to see it in writing to confirm his wishes. In a few years, he probably won't be with it at all.

And yes, dementia creeps up on you. Do the lawyering now, and set a reminder to amend it at least every 10 years. Some dementia hits you and you'll never know. Many others have a period of cognizant warning. Try to reach out to your trusted ones when this happens for confirmation. That's what my dad (and my aunt) have been doing, although it is a painful process to confirm to them that "yes, you truly did make that mistake."

I'm pretty sure we'll do some sort of "tiered" retirement or CCRC. However, that too is a process. "imoldernu" has some really good insights into that process on the referenced thread above and elsewhere. It is something that takes time and research to get right.

 

[rodi]

Joe - you're lucky your dad is not in denial.

We're fighting a hard battle of denial with my MIL. We have the doctors reports, social worker reports, and psychologist reports confirming dementia... but she is in complete denial. Unfortunately, since she isn't make good decisions for herself or my FIL, we're in a legal court process now. (We were presented with the option of taking guardianship or the STATE would make them wards of the state to ensure FIL got the right care. Better family make the decisions, than a bureaucrat.) Denial and stubbornness from a strong matriarch is a challenge to family dynamics. It's an expensive and frustrating process.

I think most of us want to be left alone to make our own decisions... I respect that. But dementia can rob you of the ability to do this.

 

[HighRoller]

I'm planning something like that, except with Hooters Girls to wait on the old guys. .

I hope I never get so old that this would sound like a bad idea!

 

[walkinwood]

A wonderful thread. This topic worries us too since we have no children.

I'll be watching the thread closely. Thanks all for sharing your expertise in this subject.

 

[JoeWras]

Joe - you're lucky your dad is not in denial.

We're fighting a hard battle of denial with my MIL. We have the doctors reports, social worker reports, and psychologist reports confirming dementia... but she is in complete denial.

Yes, we are lucky. Dad had a bit of denial, but very mild. It just delayed his move, and he had to push the driving to the point of getting into a minor fender bender. Some days he still tries to deny, but quickly admits his issues.

Sorry to hear about your legal problems. I honestly don't know how difficult it would have been if Dad was in complete denial. We have the legal documents that talk about what to do in the case of non-competence, with his signatures, but even then I'm sure it would have been unpleasant.

And then... there are some ugly dementias that hit early and the person has zero clue they are happening. FTD (Association for Frontotemporal Degeneration: Opening the gateway to help and a cure) is one of them. I don't want to get morbid, just want to reinforce that we all need to get our papers in order ... just in case.

 

[Mulligan]

When my parents were in their early 80s, they bought a retirement apartment in a retirement system with 3 levels. Self sustaining, assisted care and full care.

They are still in the self care level living in their apartment without help. However, the system provides weekly house cleaning, quarterly deep cleaning and meals. They do need to check in daily to ensure they are well and have not fallen or have a medical emergency.

Part of the monthly fee included Long term care insurance which will kick in when they move into the full care unit. They purchased a cremation plan, so everything is pretty much taken care of.

The retirement center will take them to any appointments if needed, however my Dad still drives at 92. So, he takes them where they need to go.

So far nothing has cropped up that they did not anticipate and prepare for. I do live about 3 hours away, but am available if needed.. and with the 2 of them still in pretty good health, they do pretty well in their environment.

This is a great story, KB. Dad is 92 and still driving, how can you beat that. Seems like your parents have orchestrated the perfect plan and have played it out to perfection. Most of us aspire for this, but in reality, it is probably not going to happen. Good for them with their healthy life, and well planned lifestyle!