ER Article

[REWahoo]

The mmm and ere blogs are entertaining peeks into "how we retired good" with the writers' own definitions of "retired" and "good." Keeping a blog updated frequently enough to bring more eyeballs to the site is a lot of what I define as "work" and more power to anyone who can churn out entertaining posts.

Although I did learn on one of the blogs how to save money by making my own rake in only one day rather than pay those exorbitant rake prices at Home Depot, I already know how to save money and retire good by my own definitions. I do like the variety of information presented here at e-r.org, because it is unlikely that my circumstances will perfectly match an individual blogger's but here I can see what lots of people do to retire good, from big giant yellow bus international trips to time shares for travel, for example.

+1

I've found blogs like MMM, ERE and the infamous MMND have three things in common: they are "cheap" entertainment, use creative accounting, and blur the line as to what qualifies as non-fiction.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

I admit it - - I do enjoy reading blogs about methods for extreme frugality, even though I don't need to put such methods in practice right now. Still, you never know when this sort of knowledge might come in handy.

However, I don't especially enjoy reading self-congratulatory treatises related to frugality, as some bloggers tend to produce. Who cares? I want to hear about exactly what they did to lower expenses, not worship them. Like many others here, I too have "lived like a student" for years because I had to in order to achieve my goals. Does this make me somehow superior to others? I think that idea is ridiculous. If anything, that makes me inferior to others because I could not figure out how to reach my goals while spending more.

If the blogger is genuinely discussing good, obviously effective methods for lowering expenses, then it shouldn't matter what he earns or doesn't earn, or what he spends or doesn't spend overall. I think the problem is that the methods presented for lowering expenses just don't hold up to scrutiny sometimes and they aren't effective enough to have the claimed results on spending level.

As an exaggerated example, some bloggers might post sort of along the lines of, "I use half a dryer sheet instead of whole dryer sheets, and because of this my total living expenses for 2013 added up to $10K". If they would just be honest and say, instead, "I use half a dryer sheet instead of whole dryer sheets, and so I cut my dryer sheet spending in half", then the blog entry becomes a bit more palatable.

I agree 100% with W2R. And I too have explored a lot of these sites before finding this one. The problem as I see it, these are all "advocates". So just like any other advocate site (selling a book, toothpaste or a political candidate), only partial information is presented. Its not an oversight, it is the purpose of the site. Exaggeration drives visitors to the site, then they get a chance to buy the book, or read the advertisements, and maybe even become a true believer.

I think the question of whether these people are truly "retired" or not isn't the point, but rather that the information presented is more dangerous than helpful. Sure there is some good information, just as in all "advocate" information sources. But because it presents only one side, you can never be sure where the pitfalls are.

And that is precisely what I want and need to know. What are the pitfalls? It is why I was so impressed by this e-r.org site. A lot of good information from good people, and other than the LBYM and save, no one pretends to "know" all of the answers.

The very fact that we need to "deconstruct" the numbers from these sites should tell the user something about their worth.

 

[CoolChange]

...
I find value in all the sites, while ideologically I'm probably somewhere between MMM and E-R.org. How bout you?

I am in almost exactly the same spot, my main difference: At this point, I find MMM & ERE more entertaining than valuable.

 

[ShortInSeattle]

The mmm and ere blogs are entertaining peeks into "how we retired good" with the writers' own definitions of "retired" and "good." Keeping a blog updated frequently enough to bring more eyeballs to the site is a lot of what I define as "work" and more power to anyone who can churn out entertaining posts.

Although I did learn on one of the blogs how to save money by making my own rake in only one day rather than pay those exorbitant rake prices at Home Depot, I already know how to save money and retire good by my own definitions. I do like the variety of information presented here at e-r.org, because it is unlikely that my circumstances will perfectly match an individual blogger's but here I can see what lots of people do to retire good, from big giant yellow bus international trips to time shares for travel, for example.

Right! There is a lot of variation on a "good retirement." I get a kick out of the "this is how we are doing it" blogs (and stories here) because sometimes you pick up some new ideas and sometimes you look at their choices and think "no way would I do that".

In any case, it all makes for entertaining reading. And anyone who makes big life plans based on the advice of one self-proclaimed guru without doing their own math and research is being pretty foolish.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

In any case, it all makes for entertaining reading. And anyone who makes big life plans based on the advice of one self-proclaimed guru without doing their own math and research is being pretty foolish.

Unfortunately that happens all too often. Just check the forums associated with the blogs.

I do think of having a reasonable discussion here on e-r.org on issues like budgeting for increasing health care costs as people age, the importance of budgeting for roof and car replacements and major medical expenses, what is really a safe withdrawal rate at ages 30 - 40 with a possible 60+ year retirement horizon, how retiring early reduces Social Security payments later on, etc. is all a form of a financial public service announcement.

Not too many of the ER blogs seem to take into account the expenses that can and do crop up over long retirement time frames - braces for the kids; tenant vacancies, lawsuits and evictions for landlords (in offline life most of our landlord friends seem to have this happen now and then); having to repair your foundation or plumbing eventually; special assessments for condo owners; helping elderly relatives with expenses; serious illness; divorce; needing umbrella liability insurance; stock market and real estate crashes; hyperinflation; age discrimination / dated job skills if you do need a job later in life; boomerang adult kids; etc.

A good source for anyone considering retirement or wondering how accurate the ER blogs are should take look at Gumby's post on Can I Retire?

http://www.early-retirement.org/for...-answer-before-asking-can-i-retire-69999.html

 

[Greencheese]

I read several ER blogs and this is the only one that is reasonably realistic in my opinion. Some people seem to think that living in a cave so they can retire at 28 and spend the rest of their life foraging for salads in the state parks is the way to live. I prefer seeing stories of people who pulled the plug at 50 or so and were able to maintain a fun and reasonable lifestyle with some travel and the occasional "luxury". But to each his/her own right?

 

[Major Tom]

As is often the case with some of the more sage people around here, W2R expressed what I was thinking but didn't articulate very well. After reading her post, I realized that I do enjoy reading personal accounts of journeys through ER but what puts me off is the ego apparent (to greater and lesser extents) in some of the blogs. It's a big turnoff for me.

Although it's not a PF blog, Andy Baird's Travels With Andy site is a great example of the kind of writing style I enjoy. Andy is a thoughtful and creative person with many interests, and an ability to balance the personal information with the practical so that the resulting narrative is both informative and relatable.

Greencheese - your description, "Some people seem to think that living in a cave so they can retire at 28 and spend the rest of their life foraging for salads in the state parks is the way to live" was hilarious! The closest thing to a back to nature lifestyle that I know of, is Dan Price of Moonlight Chronicles fame. His hobbit-style home in Oregon doesn't offer the kind of creature comforts that most of us would want, but I love reading about these kinds of lifestyles. Dan has put a lot of work into creating this life for himself so, in my opinion, his is a life lived deliberately - something I admire. In the video linked on the homepage, the Australian reporter does mention that his wife and kids weren't fully on board, so I can't help but wonder what the back story is. However, we're all entitled to some privacy and Dan is most certainly entitled to his.

 

[JacqJolie]

I don't enjoy reading anyone that writes in a tone of "the values police" - my spending on my values is good and smart, you spending on your values is bad, wasteful and stupid.

I do feel sorry for many of the people that take a dogmatic stance about the joys of being super-frugal because if they do come into some money, wouldn't they appear to be hypocrites if they started lightening up and spending it after saying it wasn't necessary for happiness? Or they have to play little games with their readers by calling the spending they want to do necessary business expenses or "experiments in wastefulness". Cognitive dissonance is a strange thing.

I was raised in a money hoarder type family and some sound like they have money hoarding issues to me. I find it sad in the same way that my grandmother's Great Depression food hoarding tendencies were sad.

I like reading about the people on here like W2R who have been frugal out of necessity or to reach their goals who spend more now in a thoughtful and considered way because they can and it makes them happy vs. the people who consider saving as the end, not a tool.

 

[W2R]

I like reading about the people on here like W2R who have been frugal out of necessity or to reach their goals who spend more now in a thoughtful and considered way because they can and it makes them happy vs. the people who consider saving as the end, not a tool.

Thanks for the compliment! I am not a paragon of perfection in this, though. I am just working towards it and although I am spending more than I used to spend, I could still ramp it up a bit. I spent part of this morning combatting instinctive sheer terror due to spending almost $1K on my new rowing machine yesterday. I amply demonstrated to myself (through spreadsheet computations) that I am still quite solvent and still not spending more than a reasonable SWR would dictate for my situation. That's a relief. It takes time to adjust and realize that one is not headed for the soup lines quite yet. But by Wednesday, when it arrives, I will be able to enjoy it and not worry about the spending.

 

[haha]

Greencheese - your description, "Some people seem to think that living in a cave so they can retire at 28 and spend the rest of their life foraging for salads in the state parks is the way to live" was hilarious! The closest thing to a back to nature lifestyle that I know of, is Dan Price of Moonlight Chronicles fame. His hobbit-style home in Oregon doesn't offer the kind of creature comforts that most of us would want, but I love reading about these kinds of lifestyles. Dan has put a lot of work into creating this life for himself so, in my opinion, his is a life lived deliberately - something I admire. In the video linked on the homepage, the Australian reporter does mention that his wife and kids weren't fully on board, so I can't help but wonder what the back story is. However, we're all entitled to some privacy and Dan is most certainly entitled to his.

This is a generous sentiment, but IMO once you make your life into a public narrative, and in effect into the product you are selling, your entire life should be open to some careful fact checking and smell testing. I know nothing about this particular writer, but very few of these public-figure early retirement bloggers would want their actual lives exposed. Because there is often such a large element of phoniness.

Dropping out has had a long tradition, and a lot of literature going back hundreds of years. In the US it seems to get strong every 20-30 years. IMO, all these writers are trying to make it sound very attractive, otherwise who would buy their books, blogs or tee-shirts? Older examples in the US are Helen and Scott Nearing, and Malabar Farm in Ohio. People like to be diverted and inspired by these stories, but might it not be smarter to be sure that very important backstories and side bars are not being left out? In my estimation, todays writers are far more commercial and oriented to selling their vision than these older examples, and in my opinion this is not an improvement.

Ha

 

[Major Tom]

This is a generous sentiment, but IMO once you make your life into a public narrative, and in effect into the product you are selling, your entire life should be open to some careful fact checking and smell testing.

<rest of post snipped>

Ha

In the case of PF bloggers, I couldn't agree more. In the case of the site that I quoted, he is not a PF blogger, or even a lifestyle blogger. The main purpose of his site was to sell his self-published graphic comic, titled "The Moonlight Chronicles". It looks as if he has stopped doing this and is now only selling the remaining back issues.

From other sites and discussions in various forums, he appeared to be living on ~5K/year and seeing that he pays ground rent of just $100/yr, this budget may be possible. He does spend part of the year each year, in Hawaii, so not sure how that fits into his budget. However, his main product is his comic, and not a PF or lifestyle book, which is why I give him the extra leeway. If the main focus of his site were to say to his audience, "I live on 5K a year, which includes an annual surfing trip to Hawaii - and you can do this too!" then I'd definitely expect a greater degree of transparency. It is not though, so I do not.

I do not like phoniness either.

EDIT - I just noticed that he is now selling e-books on the site about his lifestyle, so perhaps my comments above don't completely apply. I'd need to read the books before making further comment. Hopefully he represents his lifestyle honestly.

 

[JacqJolie]

Thanks for the compliment! I am not a paragon of perfection in this, though. I am just working towards it and although I am spending more than I used to spend, I could still ramp it up a bit. I spent part of this morning combatting instinctive sheer terror due to spending almost $1K on my new rowing machine yesterday. I amply demonstrated to myself (through spreadsheet computations) that I am still quite solvent and still not spending more than a reasonable SWR would dictate for my situation. That's a relief. It takes time to adjust and realize that one is not headed for the soup lines quite yet. But by Wednesday, when it arrives, I will be able to enjoy it and not worry about the spending.

I was thinking about the rowing machine! I've been reading your posts since you were first here years ago and it's wonderful to see how things have worked out for you. Enjoy your new toy, I spent quite a bit on kettlebells, Wii exercise games and taking hiking trips myself this year - about $20 per lost pound and lots of fun. Pretty good ROI and I'm sure your rower will be the same good investment.

 

[Options]

I guess I'm a scavenger, because I'll take advice/wisdom anywhere I can get it. I don't at all get up in the personalities as I'm only interested in learning something new, I don't care how small it is.

MMM helped me look at spending from a perspective I'd not before, even though I am a frugal person. RetiredSyd speaks to money, identity, and time in her blog. Lacking ambition got me thinking of alternative methods of living. There are numerous other sites 've visited that have helped me make decisions, offered further avenues for insight, etc.

Bogleheads is a very educational site, perhaps even more than this one (at least for me). And this site is great for the debates, conflicting points of view, and wide range of retiree experiences. All are of value to me.

 

[haha]

I guess I'm a scavenger, because I'll take advice/wisdom anywhere I can get it. I don't at all get up in the personalities as I'm only interested in learning something new, I don't care how small it is.

MMM helped me look at spending from a perspective I'd not before, even though I am a frugal person. RetiredSyd speaks to money, identity, and time in her blog. Lacking ambition got me thinking of alternative methods of living. There are numerous other sites 've visited that have helped me make decisions, offered further avenues for insight, etc.

Bogleheads is a very educational site, perhaps even more than this one (at least for me). And this site is great for the debates, conflicting points of view, and wide range of retiree experiences. All are of value to me.

To me it's like cholesterol advice. Once you know that the investigators are not fully forthcoming, that sponsorship or professional pressures are apt to be influencing the report I pay no attention to what they might say. They have invalidated it.

Ha

 

[braumeister]

To me it's like cholesterol advice. Once you know that the investigators are not fully forthcoming, that sponsorship or professional pressures are apt to be influencing the report I pay no attention to what they might say. They have invalidated it.

Ha

Uh-oh!
Sudden cognitive decline -- time to increase your statin dosage.

 

[Katsmeow]

I guess I'm a scavenger, because I'll take advice/wisdom anywhere I can get it. I don't at all get up in the personalities as I'm only interested in learning something new, I don't care how small it is.

This is me. I do pay attention to the biases of the sites that I go to. But, I get a lot from sites where I don't agree with everything the person writing has to say. I go to a lot of food/healthy living/weight loss blogs. I agree almost entirely with some of them. Others, I don't agree with entirely (I'm never going full Paleo), but there is often something there that gives me some ideas or perspectives that I do find valuable. That said, there are some sites - really a minority - where everything written is in service of a particular hobby horse that doesn't interest me, so I tend to not go back to those.

 

[RobLJ]

MMM and his site remind me of a post-modern Thoreau in Walden's first two chapters "Economy" and "Where I Lived and What I Lived For." Thoreau's point about assessing spending in terms of life-time necessary to earn the spending one consumes is a fundamental point that I never forgot, even though I've been a wage slave for 30 years (but one who likes what I'm doing).

MMM does get a bit irritating about certain expenses, like car/commute and the like, but the value is that he asks readers to scrutinize their spending in terms of values. I find this blog a lot more wide-ranging and therefore much more useful in the utilitarian sense, particularly given the diversity of posters and situations, but taken with a larger container of table salt, I think MMM strikes at a lot of hidden consumer assumptions usually hidden in the middle-class, upper-striving American lifestyles.

YMMV. I can't help but see him as a modern-day married Thoreau.

 

[Options]

To me it's like cholesterol advice. Once you know that the investigators are not fully forthcoming, that sponsorship or professional pressures are apt to be influencing the report I pay no attention to what they might say. They have invalidated it.

Ha

Well that would go for any advice/publication/material, etc., wouldn't it? As the excellent Charles Hugh Smith would say, "One way to find an answer is to ask: cui bono, to whose benefit?" Or, whose sponsoring? To your point.

I would guesstimate that probably 99% of what's out there is worthless, redundant, conflicting, or invalid. However, it's the kernels contained in the 1% that can literally change a person's life.

A very wise person once said you will be who you are in five years except for the books you read and the people you hang out with. I would add, and the useful information your acquire.

 

[growing_older]

MMM seems sincere, with a bit of attitude to spice up the site and attract a following. ERE I always thought was just making stuff up in hopes of establishing a blog business. It's hard to know without knowing the people involved, but everything is not necessarily what it seems on the internet.

 

[haha]

Well that would go for any advice/publication/material, etc., wouldn't it? As the excellent Charles Hugh Smith would say, "One way to find an answer is to ask: cui bono, to whose benefit?" Or, whose sponsoring? To your point.

I would guesstimate that probably 99% of what's out there is worthless, redundant, conflicting, or invalid. However, it's the kernels contained in the 1% that can literally change a person's life.

A very wise person once said you will be who you are in five years except for the books you read and the people you hang out with. I would add, and the useful information your acquire.

For sure you are right. But there are miles between the type of personal finance bloggers we are taking about and say Robert Shiller, or Rob Arnott
or William Bernstein or about a million other people.

I am 100% sure that there is nothing worth bothering with in any of these pop-type PF bloggers, so by ignoring it you save yourself a lot of wheel spinning and BS and lose nothing.

Everyone of us knows about saving money, buying insurance for less, trying to take SS at ideal times, etc. The rest of it is counterproductive.

Ha

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

One remembers Sturgeon's Law: "9/10ths of everything is garbage."