Divorce an Enabler for FIRE?

[Danmar]

Good analysis Ozziedreamer. Canada would generally not be the place to be if you wanted to get a quick, fair, and final divorce. i was very lucky.

 

[sheehs1]

As others here, my divorce over 20 years ago is why....I keep everything separate in my current 18 year marriage and have a post marital agreement. My husband says "he can't believe anyone ever took advantage or pulled one over on me". That's because my ex did, it was horrible and I learned from it. I was so naive. Let him take my paid off car to trade in on a new one. Didn't know he did not add my name to the title until the separation when....the bank came to take the car. He added my name to his credit cards....which took me months to clear up, proving I never signed for those cards and getting my credit cleared up, he stopped making house payments while living in the house which sent it into foreclosure (got out of that one too with a quit(?) claim deed- but it required me to hire a bankruptcy attorney to accomplish, had the IRS calling me trying to make me responsible for money he owed them before we were married - took an accountant to invoke the innocent spouse rule to clear up, had to go to Child Protective Services to start the clock ticking on child support payments as he wasn't paying, spent almost 3 years in J & D court over custody of our daughter....only to have him "give up his parental rights all of a sudden "..but not until $25,000 was racked up in legal fees (just my side), ...all the while he is living the high life dating various women, taking them on expensive vacations, buying one a $25K engagement ring, buying expensive cars (never did figure out how he was able to do that)......and ALL of which he bankrupted in his 2nd bankruptcy..including his legal fees. I went to the bankruptcy court to view his documents...which is how I know what he bankrupted.

So...I keep things separate now. We share the "common ground".

All of that said even now....my husband and I don't share the exact same financial philosophy. His is "you can't take it with you". Mine is "better prepare for the future even if you are not here". My philosophy started to rub off on him about 5 years ago when I told him he needed 1 to 2 million by retirement and showed him how and why.
In his case, with his own CPA practice....he figured he could work until he couldn't (yes he has disability insurance). But as I have pointed out to him, that is not the wisest approach.

 

[Ozziedreamer]

She was just one of those people who can't stand to see a dollar in the bank, couldn't make up her mind what she wanted, and didn't have the discipline to save anything or plan ahead.

It was like being married to a teenager with the attention span of a puppy.

Nice story Walt. Can relate to a lot of what you said. I called mine "the never ending list". Some of the things on the list included new car, new kitchen, new bathroom, home extension, holiday to US, holiday to Europe, $30k pearl necklace, etc, etc.

Just ran out of steam in the end - very demoralising to see a list with things continue to be added to it at a faster rate than what you could take off by buying.

Glad it worked out for you in the end.

 

[youbet]

My ex explicitly gave up all claims to the retirement accounts which were then worth about $100k.

Help me understand this. Retirement accounts, such as IRA's, cannot be held in joint ownership. If your ex-DW had retiremenet accounts, they were in her name only. Are you saying your ex-DW somehow turned her IRA, 403b or 401k, etc., over to you? How is this possible?

Or are you just saying that all the retirement accounts were in your name and she did not demand that their value be included when dividing assets?

 

[Bestwifeever]

...It was like being married to a teenager with the attention span of a puppy....

I love this, Walt--so funny but says a lot.

 

[arebelspy]

This divorce thread is interesting, but also a little depressing. As someone young and married (almost 5 years now)... Is there anyone on here not divorced?

Though it seems like a common thread in these is a difference in financial thoughts and habits - the wife and I are very like-minded when it comes to frugality and FIRE.

 

[W2R]

I lost everything in my divorce after 23 years of marriage (didn't want to take it to court, but just wanted him GONE and the pain over, and that was the only way to accomplish that). So, I "started over" at age 50. Pretty scary. I wouldn't recommend that to anyone.

I was left with nothing but my books, my clothes, an unreliable old used K-car with intermittent problems, and a sofa. One fork, one plate, one coffee cup, and $1000 in the bank, period. He got the house and my rent was due. So, in that respect my divorce was a financial disaster. It took years to recover.

Still, as you point out, it is easier to live on a very tight budget as a single. No need to get the spouse on board with a savings plan. To me this is a minor silver lining to the huge black cloud of financial disaster that often results from a divorce, and I applaud you for being able to look at this as "the cup half full".

I got divorced 15 years ago and it has been good for me financially because I can easily control spending and my ex wife didn't want any of our retirement assets. We split everything else 50/50, but I kept the 401k. I spoke to her and her lawyer about it but she didn't want to know about it. I think she just didn't want the trouble of it and wanted a clean break and to get on with the rest of her life, money was never important to her. Anyway that 401k is now an IRA worth half a million, but I've kept her as my beneficiary as it really is half hers.

Cool! Glad you are happy with your divorce settlement. Me, too. In my case, he wanted the entire large 401K too and wouldn't bend on that. It was in his name, since my jobs had not had 401K's or pensions until two years before our divorce. I gave it to him, though my lawyer wanted me to slug it out in court for that. Poor lawyer - - he only got a total of $250 from us for doing and filing the paperwork in this no contest divorce.

I really think that for some (not you or anyone here) it's a dominance game and the "stuff" really isn't as important to the individuals, as winning. But "stuff" can be replaced, whereas freedom (also including freedom from conflict and near endless continuation of the ugliness of divorce), is invaluable IMO.

 

[nun]

Help me understand this. Retirement accounts, such as IRA's, cannot be held in joint ownership. If your ex-DW had retiremenet accounts, they were in her name only. Are you saying your ex-DW somehow turned her IRA, 403b or 401k, etc., over to you? How is this possible?

Or are you just saying that all the retirement accounts were in your name and she did not demand that their value be included when dividing assets?

The retirement accounts were in my name; a 403b and a 401k. I'd had the 403b before getting married, but it didn't have much in it and the 401k was from a job I'd started after getting married and had $100k in it. My ex just didn't want any of the retirement accounts to be considered. We came up with the settlement agreement on our own and I tried to get her to include the retirement money, but she said she didn't want to deal with it. I did my own divorce paperwork and she employed a lawyer, but just to file the papers with the court.

 

[Alan]

This divorce thread is interesting, but also a little depressing. As someone young and married (almost 5 years now)... Is there anyone on here not divorced?

Though it seems like a common thread in these is a difference in financial thoughts and habits - the wife and I are very like-minded when it comes to frugality and FIRE.

35 years on August 7th

DW is the main reason we were able to ER. She and I are totally compatible when it comes to finances.

 

[freebird5825]

This divorce thread is interesting, but also a little depressing. As someone young and married (almost 5 years now)... Is there anyone on here not divorced?

Not divorced.
I was in a LTR for 4.5 years after I was widowed. I very carefully and consistently kept my finances separate except for a joint bill paying account for everyday living expenses. Any improvements to my home were paid 100% by me, on the sage advice of my trust attorney.

When we broke up over a year ago, he acted like we were legally married, claiming part vested interest in a few improvements to my home while he resided here.
My response?
We divvied up any consumer items we jointly paid for, fair and square. But it seemed he wanted more. Oh well.

 

[nun]

Cool! Glad you are happy with your divorce settlement. Me, too. In my case, he wanted the entire large 401K too and wouldn't bend on that. It was in his name, since my jobs had not had 401K's or pensions until two years before our divorce (so his was 20x as big as mine). I gave it to him, though my lawyer wanted me to slug it out in court for that. Poor lawyer - - he only got a total of $250 from us for this no contest divorce.

I really think that for some (not you or anyone here) it's a dominance game and the "stuff" really isn't as important to the individuals, as winning. But "stuff" can be replaced, whereas freedom (also including freedom from conflict and near endless continuation of the ugliness of divorce), is invaluable IMO.

The retirement money is often the largest asset a couple has and while it might be about control during the divorce it has significant financial consequences afterwards. I still feel that my ex should have had half the retirement accounts, but we'd have had to cash them in or one of us would have got a far smaller portion of the non-retirement assets to make up for keeping the 401k. So it worked out well for me, but I've kept her as beneficiary. Not sure what I'll do if I remarry....new DW would probably have a lot to say about that.

 

[PaddyMac]

This divorce thread is interesting, but also a little depressing. As someone young and married (almost 5 years now)... Is there anyone on here not divorced?

23 years and happily counting. We are financially compatible also.

When you consider that money is the #1 reason for divorce, it makes sense that most of these stories of divorce center on the finances. However, I still believe that it makes the most financial sense to have both spouses working in good jobs, no kids to fund through college, and the ability to save costs on housing, utilities, etc. as a couple. And then if both are decent savers, you should be in good shape financially at least.

 

[FinanceDude]

This divorce thread is interesting, but also a little depressing. As someone young and married (almost 5 years now)... Is there anyone on here not divorced?

ME!!

 

[FinanceDude]

Help me understand this. Retirement accounts, such as IRA's, cannot be held in joint ownership. If your ex-DW had retiremenet accounts, they were in her name only. Are you saying your ex-DW somehow turned her IRA, 403b or 401k, etc., over to you? How is this possible?

Maybe a QDRO?

 

[Nords]

This divorce thread is interesting, but also a little depressing. As someone young and married (almost 5 years now)... Is there anyone on here not divorced?

I screwed around in high school but met spouse in college. We've known each other for nearly 32 years and we'll celebrate our 25th in a couple weeks.

 

[Sarah in SC]

22 years together, attributable to our financial compatibility.

Been seeing things a bit too close up with a couple that are friends of ours. They keep all funds separate and they just seem to be on totally different pages for spending. I am trying very hard not to give unsolicited advice, but it is hard for me to stifle my urge to share my opinion on their financial communication issues.

I could see that being freed up from a spendthrift spouse would make it possible to ER when there was no way of doing it while in harness with them. Glad for those of you who escaped.

 

[FUEGO]

This divorce thread is interesting, but also a little depressing. As someone young and married (almost 5 years now)... Is there anyone on here not divorced?

We have been together since I was 18 and so good so far (13 years into it). I am certain financial compatibility has helped the relationship, since none can appreciate the finer nuances of being a cheap SOB other than another cheapskate! From DW's perspective, I think she understands that the occasional trade off is worth it if we can be FI in our 30's and do whatever we want the rest of our lives (health permitting of course). A foreign concept to most, but it works for us.

 

[rescueme]

22 years together, attributable to our financial compatibility.

Married 42 years this September, and the same financial outlook (yeah, we're boring and don't fit the subject of the thread - but since others were chiming in)...

 

[Fireup2020]

Divorce was my personal catalyst to get hustling - I was single when I discovered ER was even an option - had not considered the fact that FIRE could be so close! Finding like-minded SO does not hurt matters either!

 

[omni550]

Now I'm wondering how many here are happily married and keep their finances separate? Is there such a thing?

omni

 

[rescueme]

Now I'm wondering how many here are happily married and keep their finances separate? Is there such a thing?

omni

Time for a poll, with all the variations listed ? (nope, I'm not doing it ...)

 

[Packman]

Now I'm wondering how many here are happily married and keep their finances separate? Is there such a thing?

omni

We keep our finances separate. Both of us were married once at a young age and had been single for quite some time. When we started to get serious about being together and discussing marriage, I said I would only do so with a pre-nup. Our financial backgrounds were very different. I had been saving for ER since my late 20's and DW didn't really have any financial assets. In the 6 years we have been married, DW has saved a substantial amount for her ER - I'm very proud of her, although she still spends much more money than I do - going "shopping" and on personal care (guess that is a women thing).

Keeping the finances separate is very easy. We share utilities, food, travel, separate cars, etc. I pay for all house expenses so my DW could save toward her ER. We don't argue about finances. Both working until I recently ER'ed certainly made all of this possible.

 

[Silver]

I divorced my husband of 15 years in 1994. I was 42 and he was 37 yrs old. He and his brother owned a wholesale food distributing business in Philadelphia that was previously owned by their father. They had maybe 10 employees...butchers, delivery drivers, etc. My husband worked the "inside" of the business doing all the office stuff. My BIL did all the sales and marketing.

One night...late....after 11PM....my mother-in-law came to our house and said that she needed to tell me what was going on. Apparently, three months prior, the IRS had arrived at the business, padlocked the door, and took my husband away in handcuffs. He had been initially charged with tax fraud, but that was lowered to tax evasion. I knew nothing....I didn't even recall him coming home particularly late the day this happened. His family knew that he had not told me what was going on. For at least three months he came and went "to work" as if nothing was going on. The following day, my husband disappeared. No one knew where he was, and we all believed that he may have committed suicide.

Actually, he was busy negotiating with the IRS. He had come up with a large enough sum to get them to agree to payment arrangements. I had no idea that at least some of the money had come from all of our personal accounts, including investments that he forged my name on to cash out. By the time I realized what had happened, everything was gone except the house and remaining mortgage. He never came home, so I divorced him a year later and started over.

Lucky me....since all of our tax returns had been joint, and he had not even paid the FICA for his own or employee's pay, the IRS came after me as well. I was required to re-file married but separate for the previous seven years, and pay all of my taxes owed plus penalties. (We had gotten refunds for most of those years) This process took about 3 years to get through.

I am now blessed with a wonderful husband of almost four years. Lesson learned for me is that you never really know anyone...even if you think you do.

 

[sheehs1]

Now I'm wondering how many here are happily married and keep their finances separate? Is there such a thing?

omni

Yes...there is. Probably on a case by case basis but it is more than possible. In fact in my view, in some situations it works better for both parties.

 

[Amethyst]

Silver, that is absolutely awful, and must have been terrifying at the time. It's amazing that you were able to trust anyone else enough to marry him. But I am glad all is well now.

Amethyst

I
Actually, he was busy negotiating with the IRS. He had come up with a large enough sum to get them to agree to payment arrangements. I had no idea that at least some of the money had come from all of our personal accounts, including investments that he forged my name on to cash out. By the time I realized what had happened, everything was gone except the house and remaining mortgage. ... the IRS came after me as well.