Blood Pressure -- Experiments and Stategies

[ERD50]

He presents evidence that a higher potassium/sodium ratio not only decreases BP but also reduces the incidence of other problems, unlike drugs.

OK, thanks. I guess it is Chapters 5 & 6 that would be most interesting. The other items just seem to confirm that BP is lowered, which prescribed drugs also do.

Like the discussion on statins, does changing this number result in higher QOL? Hopefully so.


BTW, and going off the top of my head here, but I think you can use potassium in place of sodium in water softeners. This might be a good way to move those ratios for people using water softeners.

-ERD50

 

[LOL!]

I usually get low readings after a hard workout. In the past I've taken readings at different times, with different activities, and there is a lot of variation.

My hypothesis is that if you sweat a lot, then the water has to come from somewhere. Some of it will come from blood, so you reduce the volume of the blood in your body. If you reduce the volume of blood and it is going through the same size circulatory system, then your blood pressure has got to be lower.

It is true that systolic blood pressure goes up when doing a treadmill stress test, but I think that just helps to stretch out your blood vessels and make their total volume bigger.

As for variation with different times and activities, I hypothesize that the activities where you do not lose water (sweat), your BP will be higher than with activities where you lose lots of water.

 

[eytonxav]

I had never heard anything before about the sodium/potassium relationship, very interesting.

I also take a small coated aspirin/day as a preventative, anyone else here with HBP taking a small coated aspirin?

 

[haha]

My hypothesis is that if you sweat a lot, then the water has to come from somewhere. Some of it will come from blood, so you reduce the volume of the blood in your body. If you reduce the volume of blood and it is going through the same size circulatory system, then your blood pressure has got to be lower.

It is true that systolic blood pressure goes up when doing a treadmill stress test, but I think that just helps to stretch out your blood vessels and make their total volume bigger.

As for variation with different times and activities, I hypothesize that the activities where you do not lose water (sweat), your BP will be higher than with activities where you lose lots of water.

Your conclusion is likely true, but remember that the arterioles which are the vascuar resistance sub-system, are not only passive pipes. They are dynamically responsive neuromuscular systems. It is usually incomplete to think about physiological matters purely mechanistically.

Ha

 

[LOL!]

Your conclusion is likely true, but remember that the arterioles which are the vascuar resistance sub-system, are not only passive pipes. They are dynamically responsive neuromuscular systems. It is usually incomplete to think about physiological matters purely mechanistically.

Ha

Yep. The Museum of Life and Science in Durham, NC has some nice exhibits on exactly this.

 

[Alan]

Do you have regular check-ups with blood work? If so, where have the sodium levels been? If your levels are well within range every year then you probably are okay.

I don't have any in which the electolytes were measured.

That's a shame. My annual physical, paid for by my insurance, includes these tests. I've looked back over the last 5 years and the Na and K levels have hardly budged, with both being middle of the range.

I've been concerned about my bp for a few years which has been in the 120 - 140 range, sometimes into the 140's, but nearly always below 80 on the low end.

In that time period I've mentioned it to the Doc but when both he and the nurse have measured it was normal, in fact at my physical 2 years ago it was 98/55, so I wondered if I had the reverse of white coat syndrome.

However, at my physical last week it was 135/90, but the doc wasn't the least bit concerned since all other health factors are normal. I took it myself last night and it was 122/66.

I've decided to just forget it unless I get regular readings over 140, and accept that getting older means that the artery walls do lose some elasticity as one ages (I'm 57).

I did have a treadmill stress test 3 years ago and was amazed at how high the bp got, but the cardiologist said that was perfectly normal.

 

[Tigger]

You're probably already watching your vitamin D levels, but if you're not, maybe you might want to look into that too...

In a study the crude odds ratio (risk) of being hypertensive was almost five times higher for those with 25(OH)D levels less than 15 ng/ml compared to those above 40 ng/ml.
Source: Bhandari SK, Pashayan S, Liu IL, Rasgon SA, Kujubu DA, Tom TY, Sim JJ. 25-hydroxyvitamin d levels and hypertension rates. J Clin Hypertens (Greenwich). 2011 Mar;13(3):170-7. doi: 10.1111/j.1751-7176.2010.00408.x. Epub 2010 Dec 22.
25-hydroxyvitamin D levels and ... [J Clin Hypertens (Greenwich). 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Vitamin D supplementation and 1,25-(OH)2D3 treatment reduced blood pressure in hypertensive and hyperparathyroidism patients.
Source: Mehta RG, Hussain EA, Mehta RR, Das Gupta TK 2002 Chemoprevention of mammary carcinogenesis by 1 -hydroxyvitamin D5, a synthetic analog of vitamin D. Mutat Res 523–524:253–264.

Low serum vitamin D levels appear to be independently associated with the development of prehypertension.
Source: Sabanayagam C. Abstract 21058. Presented at: American Heart Association Scientific Sessions 2010; Nov. 13-17, 2010; Chicago. Prehypertension linked to low vitamin D

 

[ontap55]

did you stop taking the CoQ10?

 

[TromboneAl]

Yes, I stopped the CoQ10, because it wasn't helping.

 

[TromboneAl]

Two-Month Update

It's now been two months since drastically reducing sodium, and increasing consumption of potassium rich foods, and taking magnesium and calcium supplements. Here's the continuation of the graph at the beginning of the thread:

And here is a graph covering only the recent experiment:

Note that each data point represents the average of the last five readings.

At the start I was taking a Magnesium/Calcium supplement, but since it seemed to be causing constipation, I switched to magnesium only on Feb 13. Because the BP was rising, I added calcium back (with more fiber) on March 4.

Remember that I take these measurements in a very standard way. I wake up in the morning, get dressed, sit down, wait 1.5 minutes, and take the reading. The readings are good for standardization, but don't give a good indication of my general BP. Here are some measurements that I've taken at other times of the day:

They are generally lower, with the lowest being 104/75. BTW, there's a very nice free app for the iPhone called BP Companion, that makes it easy to record the data.

-------------------------------

It's hard to say whether this regimen is working, or whether I'm just recovering from the increase I saw in Dec/Jan. My numbers were significantly better in early October. But this latest trend is encouraging.

I've continued to keep the sodium as low as possible. Even with no added NaCl, I've figured that I get enough sodium from the foods I'm eating. This is a difficult thing -- I'm getting sick of spinach, and there are a lot of things I can't eat with this regimen (most cheeses, restaurant food). I'm hoping I can be less stringent in the future. I've eaten a lot of almonds, roasted then coated with butter and KCl. I expected my weight to go up, but it has not.

 

[haha]

It's now been two months since drastically reducing sodium, and increasing consumption of potassium rich foods, and taking magnesium and calcium supplements. Here's the continuation of the graph at the beginning of the thread:

And here is a graph covering only the recent experiment:

Note that each data point represents the average of the last five readings.

At the start I was taking a Magnesium/Calcium supplement, but since it seemed to be causing constipation, I switched to magnesium only on Feb 13. Because the BP was rising, I added calcium back (with more fiber) on March 4.

Remember that I take these measurements in a very standard way. I wake up in the morning, get dressed, sit down, wait 1.5 minutes, and take the reading. The readings are good for standardization, but don't give a good indication of my general BP. Here are some measurements that I've taken at other times of the day:

They are generally lower, with the lowest being 104/75. BTW, there's a very nice free app for the iPhone called BP Companion, that makes it easy to record the data.

-------------------------------

It's hard to say whether this regimen is working, or whether I'm just recovering from the increase I saw in Dec/Jan. My numbers were significantly better in early October. But this latest trend is encouraging.

I've continued to keep the sodium as low as possible. Even with no added NaCl, I've figured that I get enough sodium from the foods I'm eating. This is a difficult thing -- I'm getting sick of spinach, and there are a lot of things I can't eat with this regimen (most cheeses, restaurant food). I'm hoping I can be less stringent in the future. I've eaten a lot of almonds, roasted then coated with butter and KCl. I expected my weight to go up, but it has not.

Thanks for this presentation. I have one coment, and one question. Comment-Trader Joe imports and sells an Emmentaler which according to the label is 50 mg Na+ per oz- about 1/4 to 1/3 of most cheeses.

And the question- many low carb gurus claim that on low carb diet you need to deliberately supplement with additional sodium. I certainly have not noticed that, but wonder if you notice anything. I do notice that the muscle cramps that I used to get regularly have pretty much disappeared, as long as I keep my K+ and Mg++ adequate.

Ha

 

[TromboneAl]

Thanks for this presentation. I have one coment, and one question. Comment-Trader Joe imports and sells an Emmentaler which according to the label is 50 mg Na+ per oz- about 1/4 to 1/3 of most cheeses.

And the question- many low carb gurus claim that on low carb diet you need to deliberately supplement with additional sodium. I certainly have not noticed that, but wonder if you notice anything. I do notice that the muscle cramps that I used to get regularly have pretty much disappeared, as long as I keep my K+ and Mg++ adequate.

Ha

Yes, I eat Swiss cheese now and then.

No, I haven't had any cramps since starting this.

Something else related to supplements: I used to get frequent heart palpitations. My doc confirmed that these were nothing to worry about, even though I was getting them almost every day.

When I took magnesium, they were reduced by about 50% after one day, and after five days they were gone. I couldn't believe it, and I stopped the Mg and they came back. Started again and they went away.

 

[Blackwoodt]

Haven't read all other responses but here are my 2 cents.

Secondly, are you measuring on both the arms or only one? I came across some new findings where it was mentioned that you should take measurement on both the arms and if you can, take lying as well as standing.

You should also take your blood pressure manually, and not use any of the automatic cuffs. If you have deep, or small veins, the automatic cuffs do not give an accurate reading.

 

[TromboneAl]

You should also take your blood pressure manually, and not use any of the automatic cuffs. If you have deep, or small veins, the automatic cuffs do not give an accurate reading.

Yes, I suspect that there's a lot of variability introduced by the automatic cuff that I have. OTOH perhaps it is more objective. And I think you mean "arteries."

 

[Old Microbiologist]

Stress and Diet

My wife and I both had hypertension but we decided to retire early to Europe to get away from the unhealthy foods which are prevalent in the US regardless of your source. We live in Hungary now where no GM foods are permitted, no pesticides are legal here so all food is organic. There are also no foods coming from South America and nothing has any additives or preservatives. We drink locally produced mineral water locally grown wine and eat a healthy diet but most of all no more stress at all. All of our health problems have disappeared. My wife and I both had serious hypertension, gastric reflux disease and early Type II diabetes plus the added complication of gall stones. We both were on high dose lipitor (probably what caused the gall stones and certainly what caused my cataracts) and I also had BPH. We have both stopped all drug therapy and all symptoms have either dramatically reduced or disappeared altogether. We deal with the GARD with a bed that has foot head elevation and keep our heads elevated so that also is a manageable issue. The gall stones have disappeared and our cholesterol levels are now back to acceptable limits without any statins. So, I can attest that changing your life style can make dramatic improvements in your health. All of the issues about sodium and potassium may be correct but basically the answer is to eat well, lower your stress, and get away from unhealthy stuff. The air and water are clean here and we can enjoy a vigorous exercise regimen and eat extremely well on mostly organically grown foods. We also cut out anything "white" in our diet which includes potatoes and rice and try and limit any pasta to once a week or less. We have a healthy green salad and small portion of pork, chicken, fish, or turkey plus a vegetable side dish. We do not limit butter and use olive oil in food preparation. We drink green and/or black tea daily, have 2 cups of espresso a day, and drink 1 glass of red wine (Merlot or Cabernet) daily. We get our fish either locally from friends who fish or Norwegian Salmon. We have fish at least 4 times a week. Breakfast consists of cottage cheese (Eastern European version) plus Greek yogurt and jam. Lunch is a sandwich usually of salami or ham slices. Mostly we drink carbonated mineral water at least 1 liter a day. Desserts are limited but typically I make date/coconut, almond balls, date bars, apple pie, cookies or something similar. We also make our own (Tibetan) kefir and drink 250 ml every evening before bedtime. For us, this all works wonderfully but it requires a commitment to change your lifestyle completely.

 

[sailor]

We drink green and/or black tea daily, have 2 cups of espresso a day, and drink 1 glass of red wine (Merlot or Cabernet) daily.

Travesty!!
You should be drinking Egri Bikaver and Tokaji.
(Although some EBs contains Merlot and/or Cabernet grapes).

 

[Khufu]

Trombone Al,

You seem to be very thorough, but let me just mention some considerations for BP measurements at risk of telling you what you know already, most of which came from "High Blood Pressure for Dummies" by Alan Rubin MD:

1. you need to be sitting in a chair with your back supported and your feet flat on the ground. I make sure that I have been sitting for at least 5 minutes before measuring.
2. your arm needs to be supported so that the upper arm is level with your heart. I put a cushion on the desk in front of me and put my arm on that.
3. You should be awake and out of bed for at least an hour and should not have eaten anything for at least half an hour
4. Of course, you have to use an automatic machine or have someone else take the reading with a sphygmometer. Omron is the brand of choice and the correct size of cuff is critical.

In my experience most doctors and nurses do not take the measurement correctly. When one of these people attempts to take my reading without meeting all the conditions, I refuse and complain to them. And then I don't go back.

Wish I had something more concrete to suggest to get the readings down. Losing weight and increasing aerobic exercise did it for me. I do get white coat hypertension readings as you do. I am concerned about these because I understand that they represent a risk level intermediate between true normal and uniformly high levels.

 

[TromboneAl]

Thanks Khufu. You're right, but remember, my morning readings are meant to be under the same conditions, not to give me a standard BP value.

Today my morning reading was 122/82. Average is around 133/85 these days. Looking good.

 

[TromboneAl]

Another month of data showing continuing improvement:

 

[eytonxav]

Al, To what do you attribute the improvement to since the end of Feb?

 

[TromboneAl]

Al, To what do you attribute the improvement to since the end of Feb?

My thinking is that the combination* of low salt, higher potassium, plus magnesium and calcium supplements is gradually improving things. IOW, the improvement since the end of February is just the continuation of the trend. The Moore book says that it takes a while for these things to lower your blood pressure, with continued improvement over months or years.

I'm always skeptical, so other possibilities include

• There's just some random cycle here.
• It's getting warmer in the morning
• I've learned to relax more

It's now been exactly three months since I started this regimen.


*I can't say whether it's any one of these things or all four that are causing the improvement. If the blood pressure stays down, then after six months, I'll experiment by eliminating calcium. When that's resolved, I'll see if I can be a little less strict on restricting the sodium.

 

[eytonxav]

My thinking is that the combination* of low salt, higher potassium, plus magnesium and calcium supplements is gradually improving things. IOW, the improvement since the end of February is just the continuation of the trend. The Moore book says that it takes a while for these things to lower your blood pressure, with continued improvement over months or years.

I'm always skeptical, so other possibilities include

• There's just some random cycle here.
• It's getting warmer in the morning
• I've learned to relax more

It's now been exactly three months since I started this regimen.


*I can't say whether it's any one of these things or all four that are causing the improvement. If the blood pressure stays down, then after six months, I'll experiment by eliminating calcium. When that's resolved, I'll see if I can be a little less strict on restricting the sodium.

Your really doing good and I like your scientific method. I've been snacking too frequently on popcorn over the past several months and have seen my systolic pressure rise and its caused me to pack on a few more pounds. It also probably caused my salt consumption to go up as well. While I think my potassium is covered adequately with a banana on the cereal every morning, maybe I need to add the calcium/magnesium. The later is also supposed to good for PMS, so maybe thats why you are more relaxed

 

[TromboneAl]

I think my potassium is covered adequately with a banana on the cereal every morning,

Yes, but you'd need 10 bananas to get to the RDA for potassium.

Bananas have good PR when it comes to potassium.

A medium banana has 450 mg of potassium
A 4 oz serving of turkey breast has 465 mg
Half an avocado has 602 mg
A cup of cooked spinach has 1,166 mg

and the RDA is 4,700 mg (which some feel is too low).

POTASSIUM CONTENT OF FOODS
DAIRY PRODUCTS PORTION POTASSIUM (mg)
Cheddar cheese 1.5 oz. 42
FRUIT AND JUICES
Avocado 1/2 602
Banana 1 medium 451
Blueberries, raw 1/2 cup 65
Strawberries 1/2 cup 123
LEGUMES & NUTS
Almonds, roasted 1 oz 219
Beans, red kidney, cooked 1 cup 629
Walnuts, English, shelled 1 oz 128
MEAT, FISH,
POULTRY & EGGS
Chicken, dark meat, roasted 4 oz 284
Chicken, light meat, roasted 4 oz 458
Chuck, choice, lean, cooked 4 oz 276
Cod, broiled with butter 4 oz 460
Egg 1 large 65
Flounder, broiled with butter 4 oz 460
Ground beef, lean, cooked 4 oz 305
Halibut, broiled 4 oz 596
Pork, loin chops, lean roasted 4 oz 373
Shad, baked 4 oz 428
Sirloin steak, lean, cooked 4 oz 409
Tuna, in water, chunk 3 oz 257
Turkey, dark meat, roasted 4 oz 450
Turkey, light meat, roasted 4 oz 465
VEGETABLES AND JUICES
Beet greens, cooked 1 cup 480
Beets, cooked, diced, drained 1 cup 354
Broccoli, cooked 1 cup 414
Brussels sprouts, cooked 1 cup 846
Cabbage, red, raw, shredded 1 cup 240
Carrot, raw 1 246
Cauliflower, cooked 1 cup 240
Celery, raw 1 stalk 136
Coleslaw (w/mayonnaise) 1 cup 239
Collards 1 cup 498
Corn, cooked 1 ear 151
Eggplant, cooked, diced 1 cup 300
Green beans, cooked 1 cup 190
Green pepper 1 349
Lettuce, iceberg 1 cup 96
Lettuce, romaine 1 cup 143
Lima beans, immature, cooked 1 cup 376
Mushrooms, sliced, raw 1 cup 390
Okra, cooked 1 cup 268
Peas, cooked 1 cup 314
Potato, baked 1 long 782
Radishes 1/2 cup 185
Rutabaga, cooked, mashed 1 cup 1.320
Spinach, cooked 1 cup 1,166
Spinach, raw 1 cup 259
Squash, acorn, baked 1 cup 984
Squash, butternut, baked 1 cup 1,248
Sweet potatoes, baked 1 342
Tomato 1 medium 300
Tomato juice, canned 6 oz 413
Turnips, boiled, mashed 1 cup 432
Zucchini, cooked, sliced 1 cup 508

N

 

[skyvue]

My blood pressure averaged about 150/100 two years ago. My new doctor decided to put me on a low dosage of BP medicine. A year later, my blood pressure was about the same so he increased my dosage. Just got back from the doctor again and despite the increased dosage, the BP is still about the same! Hasn't improved any since taking it. The only thing the meds have done for me is to give me a chronic dry cough. Very frustrating. When I asked him this time what I could do differently his reply was to "lose weight". Was hoping there was an easier option than that! I am skeptical that will have much of an impact. I have weight 30-40 lbs less than what I do know in the not so distance past and my blood pressure was about the same.

TromboneAl,
Does you research and reading indicate consumption of alcohol as much of a contributor? (I am a beer drinker)

 

[TromboneAl]

Does you research and reading indicate consumption of alcohol as much of a contributor? (I am a beer drinker)

What I've seen is

>3 drinks per day - Yes
1-2 drinks per day - Maybe

There isn't much downside to reading the Moore book, and buying a salt substitute.