Marriage and FIRE

[Meadbh]

A good way to find frugal females would be to join them in cheap but healthy pastimes like hiking and swimming: sports that don't require much equipment!

 

[daylatedollarshort]

A good way to find frugal females would be to join them in cheap but healthy pastimes like hiking and swimming: sports that don't require much equipment!

Good idea. I'd add Pilates or yoga classes to your list.

 

[JoeWras]

So for the male posters here with frugal wives, where did you meet her? I guess you found one of the coveted 3.7%.

Just by pure luck, at the same large apartment complex. It both took us about 5 years to find each other too. We didn't marry young.

And she is definitely 1 in a 100. We both feel fortunate to share many important values.

I've recently hung out with one of my BILs, and he is crazy unfrugal. He invited me to country club outings and other money draining activities. Man, it is not my scene at all. Despite the fine wine and good food, I didn't like it at all. I can say to the OP if your girl likes country clubs and you expect to hold onto the cash, fuggetaboutit.

(Off topic: it is ironic that I have one BIL living in a shack in the woods, and another who basically lives in a country club quaffing fine wine. The contrasts of people in my life.)

 

[Sarah in SC]

Marrying early is what we did, which I guess made it easier not to be so picky, like some of my friends who are in their late 30s and early 40s and still not married. I think there is a lot of analysis paralysis that happens when you wait a longer time.

 

[travelover]

.............
So for the male posters here with frugal wives, where did you meet her? I guess you found one of the coveted 3.7%.

Wife #1 was frugal until we both started earning a lot, then she started feeling like she was being deprived while I was saving like crazy for FIRE. She got half my 401(k) and I got half her expensive private dance lessons.

Wife #2 found me in the used husband bin at Match.com. But by that time of life you either have frugality credentials or not. I could see how she lived and managed her money and I had confidence that we were compatible in that sense. So far, so good.

 

[Mulligan]

I wish it were only so easy to find someone that matches exactly what you are looking for.

I do value marriage and kids so I would like to finally settle down soon. It is difficult/impossible to find someone that is perfect.

I have found in life that rich girls are generally better educated, more interesting, and driven - but they are also much less likely to value frugality. On the other end of the spectrum are hippy type girls that are happy making their own clothing (or going nude...), but I find they are generally denser. (No offense to people from either category on the thread...)

Then there are other values - religious, personality, social - as well as appearance that needs to be factored in.

I just wonder if it is to much of a compromise to marry someone that fits all of the other categories except the frugality. Very difficult to think about.

Especially if the girl is from a wealthy family where they might even assist in keeping up her standard of living (and thereby raising my own as well). I definitely am not looking to gold dig and don't even know if I would like living that lifestyle. I think there is something good to be said about eating what you kill rather than relying on hand outs.

Has anyone married a spouse that did not share similar financial background and ideals?

Since marriage and children are a goal in your life, do not dismiss every opportunity or you will end up a lonely old man. I agree with most posters that it would be very beneficial if she shared your financial values. Do not make looks the number 1 value in a permanent relationship. If things would go south she will not appear pretty no matter what she looks like at separation.
To your question: Yes, I was married to a spouse who had parents who had a decent lifestyle and grandparents treated her like a goddess paying for all her college and bought her a new car at graduation, etc. Trouble was, I did not come from any money and we both entered careers that did not pay much. So she had a wine appetite on a beer budget. I was in charge of the budget, but she was in charge of the credit cards and checkbook. That was not a good strategy. The more she spent, the more I wanted to hoard. It ended after 5 years. 20 years later, we have remained friends through raising our child. She is now a very responsible person financially and appears to be in great shape. If we had met later in life it may have worked out. At my age of pushing 50, I am in Ha's camp. I will never marry again, but I believe my GF of 6 years will eventually move in with me.

 

[FUEGO]

Seems like the important topic of life goals should come up in a discussion at some point in the relationship well before you contemplate getting married. If her goal is constantly having you make more money to keep her lifestyle up in the manner to which she is accustomed, tell her sounds good, use her for what you want, then dump her.

Conversely, run by her your idea of using your high paying banking job to save up a pile of money that will enable you to slow down the pace a bit and [insert whatever floats your boat or yacht here]. If she bolts, she just saved you lots of alimony and equitable distribution losses down the road (and maybe mega child support).

Seems like financial harmony is up there pretty high on the list of things that are important.

Ditto the ideas of doing cheap things. Is a picnic in the park or a hike in the woods just as enjoyable to her as a $200 dinner with wine or an evening of cocktails and clubbing? Pretty good test. Maybe you can afford the expensive dinners and cocktails and clubbing, but it would take a lot of funds to engage in those activities (and competitive luxury goods shopping).

 

[Bankerwithabrain]

Thanks Mulligan - that is exactly the type of relationship I am scared about.

 

[W2R]

Like Ha and Mulligan and (I imagine) many other divorced men and women, I never plan to marry again.

But you know what?

1. I don't feel like marrying the first time was a mistake. I want to experience life and live every bit of it to its fullest. Marriage and having children are huge experiences and not ones that I would want to miss out on, even though once is enough.

2. Now, marrying a second time? For me THAT would be a mistake.

 

[Mulligan]

Thanks Mulligan - that is exactly the type of relationship I am scared about.

Banker, you are in a different spot in life though than I was then, and where W2R, Ha, and Myself are now. W2R's first point on her last point is very telling and basically seconded by Ha in his own humorous way, that marriage with the children was not a mistake. It just didn't work out, and at our points in life it is not needed again. But we are not 30 years old and wanting to start a family. You are already older and have a sense of perspective, something that I didn't really have at a younger age.
You seem like you have a firm grip of who you are and what you want. It is out there, just be patient, yet don't be too dismissive right off the bat on anyone. Enjoy the ride, so to speak, and you will know when the time comes if the relationship is worth continuing.
My best friend for the past 25 years is currently in his mid 40s. The vast majority of the time it would be the three of us; me, my girlfriend of the day, and him going to do things together, as he never could find anyone to date. About 10 years ago, he was resigned to the fact that he would be single his whole life despite not wanting that. Then out of the blue he finds him a sweet little cutie, 15 years younger than himself. Fast forward, and now he has been happily married for 8 years with 2 lovely kids. Sometimes it just takes time to find what you want!

 

[MooreBonds]

I would say it was some work to get here, but honestly once you are used to LBYM, maximizing income, and investing wisely, it hasn't really felt like a sacrifice. It's a way of life I enjoy.

My issue is that I've been dating a lot recently and find that many girls are high maintenance - especially those from rich families. They enjoy shopping for pleasure, expensive vacations, etc...

It's also been shown that most divorces stem from financial issues.

My question is, how much weight should one put on looking at a potential spouses money habits? Is it more important to find someone that is intelligent , attractive and shares similar interests? Would you not pursue someone that seemed excellent except for being loose with money?

What if the woman comes for a rich family so is used to that way of life? I don't think I could support a woman that solely shops at high quality designer brands. I also wouldn't feel comfortable taking hand downs from a rich family either.

Any thoughts?

I have 6 years on you, and am in the same boat (never married yet, although have been engaged twice - LONG stories on that).

After making crazy extreme financial sacrifices and being a UPAW (ultra-prodigious accumulator of wealth) for most of my 20s and early 30s, there's no way in hell I would consider marrying someone that spends money like water. Some of my previous relationships were with women who were like that - only you don't really see that until after a little bit of time. There are ways to pick up on things like that initially through indirect means, but I save the verdict until I'm certain.

My main way of meeting women is through eHarmony. At least on that site, you can get matched up with women who often share some important traits - including some financial habits, but also other general interests and personality traits. It's certainly not a sure thing, but definitely easier/better than randomly meeting women at _______ (insert any method here), or just looking at random profiles on match.com or some other website. I wouldn't specifically tell you NOT to use other means, but just be extra vigilant in your search for the right potential spouse, and don't you dare waver on your standards.

However, having said that......in the area of fiscal compatibility, I have realized that because I can be off the charts in terms of sacrificing and denying myself expenditures, there's almost no way I'd ever find a female counterpart with my similar drive to accumulate wealth and retire early. So you have to be realistic and realize that if you meet someone who has a lot of great qualities, yet saves, say, "only" 10% of her income, that still puts her in the a very rare group these days. Don't you dare think you'll find someone with your exact same drive - you WILL have to 'make a concession' on that specific point.

Also, everyone has different paths in their past. Some make bad decisions and learn and grow from that. Seeing what their overall attitude and current direction is is better than seeing what financial means they currently have (which I think you already are looking at, but just wanted to iterate it and keep it fresh in your mind

 

[ShortInSeattle]

The virtues of childfree lifestyle. I'm not sure childfree couples truly appreciate their blissful circumstance. Like drinking a glass of refreshing water in an oasis without first having crawled across a blistering desert.

This childfree couple spent the day at Seaworld. We may not live in the desert, but we've seen it close up. .

To the OP, I'll chime in and say that shared values are the most important quality in a partner. Don't marry a princess. Marry a partner who wants to shoulder the burdens and joys of life together. There is nothing better.

SIS

 

[Maenad]

Get to know Scientist or Engineer chicks. We tend to be highly analytical and good at calculating compound interest. And we combine high-paid careers with a lack of fashion sense, so no splurging on clothes or shoes.

 

[Onward]

Any thoughts?

Don't get married at all. Get financially independent and then split your time between Thailand and Brazil. You will be happy.

 

[ProspectiveBum]

Get to know Scientist or Engineer chicks. We tend to be highly analytical and good at calculating compound interest. And we combine high-paid careers with a lack of fashion sense, so no splurging on clothes or shoes.

Co-signed! My software engineer wife is more frugal than I am, and currently makes slightly more than I do (we've traded top earner status several times over the years).

This thread makes me glad to have married young, before either of us had any appreciable assets. Apparently, I hit the marriage lotto.

 

[ClockWatcher]

Has anyone married a spouse that did not share similar financial background and ideals?

My wife and I came from a similar background, but definitely not with similar ideals. She happens to be the engineer, but through living at or above her means, had accumulated almost nothing by the time I met her via eHarmony in 2009. She had gotten caught up in the housing crisis and was underwater on her home with a looming balloon payment. She did not appreciate this when I met her and, had her circumstances not changed, she would soon have found herself in foreclosure or bankruptcy. After overcoming awful screw-ups by the government programs of the time, accompanied by not-so-subtle shenanigans by the bank that had taken over the management of her mortgage, we eventually succeeded in selling her house via short sale. Not long after, she changed jobs to the better-paying one she has now. I think this whole process helped make her more receptive to learning about better ways to save and invest her money with a focus on the future (rather than the next luxury). This openness and willingness to change helped her grow into someone I wanted to marry rather than just have fun with.

We’ve had challenges since then. I have done some lifestyle upgrades that I would not have considered without her, and she sometimes chafes at some of the budgetary restrictions/savings requirements that I insist on. Fortunately, heated negotiations involving our saving/spending choices are happening less often than they used to. Her enthusiasm for ER will probably never be like mine, but she likes seeing the net worth numbers grow and she will sometimes join me dreaming about the changes we anticipate with ER. Despite the occasional frictions around money, I believe both of us would agree that our relationship/marriage is the best thing that has happened to us. We both wish it was possible for us to have met in our twenties instead of our forties.

 

[donheff]

It seems to me that it is all about kids. If you want to have them, you are heading towards marriage because, lets face it, wanting kids means wanting a family life. Ha's third world option sounds more like buying some kids at a market - doesn't come with the family life that drives the desire for most of us. Once you head down that road, all bets are off. Either you or your spouse may change a lot once the kids are running around and your careers develop. It all seems like a bit of a crap shoot. I suspect the best you can do on that path is to keep saving as much as you can and hope for the best.

If kids are not in the picture and you are dedicated to FIRE your options expand. Then Ha's single lifestyle becomes very attractive. Alternatively, bumping into another 30 something who really floats your boat and is just as committed to the same goals could counsel marriage. Just remember, people change, including you.

 

[Walt34]

My question is, how much weight should one put on looking at a potential spouses money habits?

YMMV of course but my experience/conclusion is that it is crucial to look carefully at what she does, not what she says.

Wife #1 had the same education/income as I did, but apparently couldn't stand to see a dollar in the bank and her solution to every "I wanna..." was "charge it". At the time she said she had some outstanding cc bills because of expenses during college. She was 25 so I thought that a reasonable explanation. And I found out too late that she went shopping as a form of entertainment.

Wife #2 had much less income than I did and was frugal with it. She also had worked and paid for her own 2-year degree, with no debt, which I thought was impressive. After several years of dating, I remember she came over to watch a movie and I told her that her jeans had a hole in the back. She said "Yeah, I know, but I hate shopping".

I immediately fell to my knees and proposed.

The money thing really is all about priorities. We do have some minor differences but when money's tight there is no disagreement because the core values are virtually identical. That's important.

 

[jollystomper]

My question is, how much weight should one put on looking at a potential spouses money habits? Is it more important to find someone that is intelligent , attractive and shares similar interests? Would you not pursue someone that seemed excellent except for being loose with money?

What if the woman comes for a rich family so is used to that way of life? I don't think I could support a woman that solely shops at high quality designer brands. I also wouldn't feel comfortable taking hand downs from a rich family either.

Any thoughts?

I could NEVER marry a woman who didn't see finances in a similar fashion as I do. Growing up I saw too many guys showering money and gifts on the the type of women who loved to spend. The guys would even go into debt to gain their attention - but when the money went completely south, the women were gone faster than a drop of water on a hot griddle. So I steered clear of women who seemed to value and prioritize material things in a relationship, no matter how beautiful or tempting they were.

My Dad gave me this good advice: if you find someone that you want to marry, be sure to date them long enough so that you see them at their "worst" - when they have to deal with disappointment, unfairness, when things do not go their way, etc. Then determine if their reaction is something you can accept. Because all marriages will have those situations and that will be the real test of the relationship.

At my Ivy League college there were a lot of beautiful women from rich backgrounds that I was fortunate to have as friends but couldn't have a relationship with because of their money attitude. Like wrecking a car and laughing because "mommy/daddy will buy me another one". The woman I ended up getting serious about and marrying was (and still is) beautiful, her family had a better financial background than mine, but we had similar life goals (if not completely common interests). When it comes to finances she was more of a spender, but she acknowledged that and her lack of financial knowledge so was willing to work with me together to establish common goals. While I have made the majority of family income during our marriage, without her cooperation and support we would not be in our financial position now.

I believe studies have shown that more marriages are wrecked over finances than anything else. Of our friends who married and then divorced we have observed this to be true. Intelligence and attractiveness are certainly important, but if you desire a long term relationship having similar long term goals, including finances, is just as important.

 

[cj]

DH & I have been married for 33 years. Both of us were raised in homes where there was not enough $$ and both of us got our first jobs when we were 15 out of necessity. We learned to scrimp and save very early, and lived below our means out of fear of not having enough. As we aged, we've both done well enough, with LBYM as a lifestyle, because that's just the way we were. We also didn't have kids; neither of us really saw ourselves as parents, and we knew that both of us would always have to (want to) work full time.

Fast forward to 1994 when we plopped down $75 for a one-time visit to a financial adviser who told us that if we both maxed out our 401K's, we would have $1M some day. It was the best $75 we ever spent! After that, FIRE became our goal. We didn't start out thinking that way, but we have always had the same conservative attitude toward money, and we evolved together. We have never had a fight about money (that I can recall). We have never paid a cent in credit card interest, or had any debt except a mortgage (the last one ended in 2002) or a car loan (last one ended in 2000).

I can't imagine being married to a spender or someone who did not share my views on $$.

 

[JoeWras]

After several years of dating, I remember she came over to watch a movie and I told her that her jeans had a hole in the back. She said "Yeah, I know, but I hate shopping".

I immediately fell to my knees and proposed.

Ha ha, that's my DW! I knew we were for each other after a similar story. She also hates jewelry. HATES it. (Guys: jewelry could eat you alive.)

This has been one sided for the guys. Ladies, what should you look for or avoid in a guy? As a guy, the things that I've seen ruin them financially and relationships are:
- wandering eye
- love of gambling (major warning!)
- excess alcohol usage
- expensive toy obsession (usually cars and boats, sometimes sporting goods like new golf clubs each year)

The above list transfers across both genders, but I tend to see the above problem areas mainly on the guys.

 

[Sesq]

My wife and I met at a party. We dated for three years before marriage and have been married for almost ten. She is frugal growing up as the oldest of six in a very middle income family. When younger her clothes were mostly k-mart. The younger siblings had somewhat nicer things since the older ones were off the payroll.

When she met she was in a keep you head above water mode financially, and was working down her student loans. She lived with roommates and took a ten year repayment schedule. After dating for a year or so we decided we wanted to take a trip to Belize together. She saved up for her share over many months, and insisted on paying her freight (I made more and had offered to help). I think we more or less planned our life together relaxing in the hammocks in Belize.

The point is, if you don't rush you can see the signs of frugality (roommates, paying bills without constant crises, alternating or splitting checks). Your spouse doesn't have to be as obsessed as we are or have the same depth of knowledge. But you gotta be pointed in roughly the same direction.

 

[chris2008]

I'd be concerned that a girl from an upscale family sees herself as "daddy's girl" and expects to be taken care of. If she works, she might treat her income as "hers" and yours as "ours". And her family might support such entitlement mentality, expecting her to marry "up", from good life to even better life.

Same values are extremely important IMO. Some differences can be overcome with tolerance on both sides. But not for the core values.

I am happy to be married to DH, my love and best friend, for 31 years now.

 

[Chuckanut]

Take some advice from Ben Franklin:

He admitted in a letter to a friend, written at the end of his life, that although “frugality is an enriching virtue,” it was also “a virtue I could never acquire in myself.” But the next sentence points to one of the tricks we can learn from Franklin. He continues, “I was lucky enough to find it [frugality] in a wife, who thereby became a fortune to me.”

 

[omni550]

Just saw this salient article on my newsfeed:

"Without agreement on your goals, values, attitudes and financial behaviors, your relationship is doomed. One of you will dump the other or you’ll live a miserable life together. This may take weeks, months, years or decades to manifest but it absolutely will happen sooner or later. I know this sounds harsh but only because it’s true."

Read more: Why Money Is More Important Than Love
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omni