Going Solar

[meierlde]

Not sure how well your generalization holds up in the case of my "cheap electricity" rates.

I live in one of the fastest growing areas of the country (see this thread).

The vast majority of our power is purchased from the Lower Colorado River Authority (LCRA) with the following generating sources:

Coal - 41%
Natural gas - 46%
Hydroelectric - 7%
Wind - 6%

So certainly a big chunk of coal generation, but less than half and a declining share as new gas generating plants are being built (see LCRA link).

EDIT: Corrected math error (see below).

To boot according to the ERCOT site LCRA is a laggard on wind Ercot wide last year was about 18% wind energy, with solar begining to grow with solar farms being build in Pecos County (west Tx) where land is measured in acres per grazing cow.

 

[Mulligan]

Not sure how well your generalization holds up in the case of my "cheap electricity" rates.

I live in one of the fastest growing areas of the country (see this thread).

The vast majority of our power is purchased from the Lower Colorado River Authority (LCRA) with the following generating sources:

Coal - 41%
Natural gas - 46%
Hydroelectric - 7%
Wind - 6%

So certainly a big chunk of coal generation, but less than half and a declining share as new gas generating plants are being built (see LCRA link).

EDIT: Corrected math error (see below).

I worded it poorly.. 40% coal as a staple is a good amount and about what most cheaper utilities have. Knowing what I know from our utility the reason it is cheap is because of the ability to continue using the coal plants. If they get forced to be shuttered and replaced with other sources including nat gas rates will go up... It takes bucks to build those cheap nat gas sourced plants. This is staring at them by 2030 if not earlier. All I meant was keeping the existing coal plants running that have been largely paid off is a cheap source of electricity. But then again we also benefit from a 40 year old nuke cranking out the power like a charm also. Replace it now with a new one, and we are not talking so much about cheap electricity.


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[Winemaker]

While traveling through Wyoming last summer I was shocked to see countless windmills in the biggest coal producing state. When I asked about the sanity about them, they replied that all the output goes to Kalifornia where renewables are mandated, and laughing all the way to the bank.

I'm sure that wind power costs greater than 18 cents/kw.

 

[NW-Bound]

I recently went to Arizona State University (ASU) campus, my alma mater. They have so many solar panels up, over parking garages, walkways, etc... I like that. Here, we have too much sun, and getting power while providing shade at the same time makes a lot of sense. And there is no worry about tree shading, suboptimal roof orientation, etc...

I think as cheap as solar has gotten, it needs to drop more for it to be a no brainer. Look at all the parking space around Walmarts or shopping centers for example. They could generate power while at the same time getting brownie points for providing shaded parking for customers. The latter is a big plus here in the Southwest, where they also do not have to worry about snow load on these panels.

 

[meierlde]

While traveling through Wyoming last summer I was shocked to see countless windmills in the biggest coal producing state. When I asked about the sanity about them, they replied that all the output goes to Kalifornia where renewables are mandated, and laughing all the way to the bank.

I'm sure that wind power costs greater than 18 cents/kw.

Actually recent auctions of power from new wind farms come in with a price at the receiving substation of about .025/kwh. The price of wind is actually lower than the price of natural gas. Now for CA you have to add the price to move the energy from Wy to Ca, but since most coal plants for Ca are in UT or Wy anyway that should be a wash. (It apparently is cheaper to move electricity than physical coal, plus Ca bans coal plants in state). Solar farm power is coming in around .04 /kwh. Unfortuantly Ca has placed a lot of the mohave desert area off limits, but you could surround goldstone with solar farms however.

 

[scrinch]

Actually recent auctions of power from new wind farms come in with a price at the receiving substation of about .025/kwh. The price of wind is actually lower than the price of natural gas....

Is that their bid price, or what they actually get paid? Producers typically bid their marginal cost of generation, which is their breakeven operating cost. But they get paid the highest winning bid price, which is usually not their own bid price. Solar, wind, and geothermal can bid into the system at very low price because it doesn't cost much more to run the plant than to let it sit idle. A gas, coal, or oil fired plant, on the other hand, must use fuel to run the plant, so their bid must be higher to include the cost of that fuel. A producer's bid price and actual sales price are almost always different. Only the highest winning bid actually gets paid his bid price.

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[NW-Bound]

Thanks for this info, something I never knew.

Here's some more info on the Web: How Wholesale Electricity Prices Are Set.

 

[meierlde]

Is that their bid price, or what they actually get paid? Producers typically bid their marginal cost of generation, which is their breakeven operating cost. But they get paid the highest winning bid price, which is usually not their own bid price. Solar, wind, and geothermal can bid into the system at very low price because it doesn't cost much more to run the plant than to let it sit idle. A gas, coal, or oil fired plant, on the other hand, must use fuel to run the plant, so their bid must be higher to include the cost of that fuel. A producer's bid price and actual sales price are almost always different. Only the highest winning bid actually gets paid his bid price.

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From the NY Times in 2014 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/b...-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html?_r=0
Some power providers were able to buy power from generators at .021 per kwh this is in the great plains region where wind is abundant. Likewise the rate for solar power contracts is around .04/kwh.

 

[Mulligan]

While traveling through Wyoming last summer I was shocked to see countless windmills in the biggest coal producing state. When I asked about the sanity about them, they replied that all the output goes to Kalifornia where renewables are mandated, and laughing all the way to the bank.

I'm sure that wind power costs greater than 18 cents/kw.

They are trying to do that with wind from Kansas and hook it to the grid out East. The trouble is our pesky MO farmers are not feeling so "green". Even the MO public commission voted it down.

Now only a bunch of Missouri farmers stands in the way of a $2.2 billion, 780-mile transmission line to carry wind power from the Kansas high plains to Eastern power grids.

When Illinois regulators voted recently to approve the Grain Belt Express, joining Kansas and Indiana, that left Missouri as the sole holdout.

“We’re digging in, and we’re ready to fight,” Jennifer Gatrel said last week as she and her husband worked cattle on their ranch in Caldwell County. “We beat ’em once and we’ll beat ’em again.”

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article49004895.html#storylink=cpy



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[samclem]

They are trying to do that with wind from Kansas and hook it to the grid out East. The trouble is our pesky MO farmers are not feeling so "green". Even the MO public commission voted it down.

I liked the quote from one farmer:

“Grain Belt is a business venture,” Pisciotta said. “Clean Line is not a public utility to serve the common good. They want wind power in the East, I understand that. But some of the best wind resources in the country are off the Atlantic coast.
“Now it might cost a little more, but who’s being selfish? People there don’t want to look at turbines, so we have to work around those things [transmission line towers] forever?”

Read more here: Missouri stands alone in blocking project to carry Kansas wind power east | The Kansas City Star​

If the folks in Kansas want to live with those "blight on the landscape" wind turbines, it doesn't mean landowners across the country should have to roll over and allow the power lines to cut across their landscape. Maybe Clean Line didn't include enough money in their business plan to make those farmers along the way see things their way. Tough.

 

[meierlde]

I liked the quote from one farmer: If the folks in Kansas want to live with those "blight on the landscape" wind turbines, it doesn't mean landowners across the country should have to roll over and allow the power lines to cut across their landscape. Maybe Clean Line didn't include enough money in their business plan to make those farmers along the way see things their way. Tough.

Actually you just need to partner with Warren Buffet. He owns a railroad that you could build most of the lines along. (you would likley need to re-route the land but...) Interestingly most of the fiber optic network in the us runs underground along the sides of railroad lines already

 

[Mulligan]

I liked the quote from one farmer: If the folks in Kansas want to live with those "blight on the landscape" wind turbines, it doesn't mean landowners across the country should have to roll over and allow the power lines to cut across their landscape. Maybe Clean Line didn't include enough money in their business plan to make those farmers along the way see things their way. Tough.

I just found a present article. Seems the business is trying an end around getting local in state towns to receive some "power goodies" to build a coalition. They wont give up. I suspect they are going to say we tried to be fair and it didn't work. Probably reorganize as an entity that can use eminent domain to get their way. This one has the makings to get dragged out for a while.
http://www.whig.com/article/20160202/ARTICLE/302029566#



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[samclem]

Actually you just need to partner with Warren Buffet. He owns a railroad that you could build most of the lines along. (you would likley need to re-route the land but...) Interestingly most of the fiber optic network in the us runs underground along the sides of railroad lines already

Wouldn't "Clean Line" have thought of that? Either it's impractical or they think Warren et al will charge them more than these farmers (and the folks who set the rates for any taking of private property by eminent domain). Maybe they are in for a surprise.

 

[HFWR]

The distribution fee on my recent bill was about $15. Total bill was $57 and change, for 309 kWh.

Rate is $0.1161/kWh, but "effective rate" is $0.18...

 

[NW-Bound]

My total bill for last month was $120 for 877 kWh. So, that's 13.7c/kWh, effective rate.

My highest bill last August was $349 for 2703 kWh. That's 12.9c/kWh average, all in.

Wow, I did not know I have such a bargain compared to Californians. My total effective rate including taxes and fix charge is lower than their Tier 1. If I lived there, I would have solar panels out the wazoo too.

PS. Here's the breakdown of the $120 last month. Fix charge: $20. Off-peak power: $40. On-peak power: $50. Taxes: $10. All figures rounded to the nearest dollar.

 

[RobbieB]

They came by today and collected the one grand deposit. I asked about the time frame and she said about 12 weeks from today. Design and plans, final adjustments, permits and all have to be done before install.

Good thing I got started on this now, who knows if the tax credit will be around next year eh?

 

[RobbieB]

Today I approved the design and it goes to the city for permits.

 

[skipro33]

Be sure you sign up for time-of-use E6 rate if you have PG&E. Reason is, the power you feed back to them isn't credited in watts, it's in dollars. TOU pays you 30+ cents a kw hour during peak times. A few hours in the afternoon pays for the whole day's running of the AC. I am making about $5 a day bank on electricity most summer days above what I use.

Anyways, look into TOU. PG&E makes it go away at the end of this year. Last chance to sign up. If you don't like it, (impossible as you will bank power at high rate, use it at lower off-peak rate) you can change to another plan at the next monthly billing cycle.

 

[RobbieB]

The vendor told me to switch to E6 and I did. They also told me that even though you are credited in dollars, you don't actually get that rate. You get a 10 dollar bill each month and they reconcile once a year. When they do they will credit you for "net power generated", but at the wholesale rate of 4 cents a KWH, not the "going rate". She said that is why they are sizing these things at 80 to 90% of usage.

It makes sense to avoid paying 18 to 36 cents a KWH, but it doesn't make sense to generate it for 4 cents.

 

[Koolau]

Never been a fan of the Feds (or any other taxing body) picking winners and losers with my money. HECO (Hawaiian Electric) has struggled to integrate all the solar that has been added since the price point has at least seemed like a winner to folks. They don't share the figures in any usable form, but it would at least appear that most of the extra solar generation capacity is "wasted" because it either can't be integrated or else it doesn't actually obviate the need for peak generation capacity. Full disclosure, I'm not an expert nor do I have hard numbers. Just going on the various news articles I've seen over the years.

I'm a big fan of efficiency improvements and alternative energy if it's not only cost-effective but works as well. The only alternative energy I'm aware of with PROVEN pay back and integration (without subsidies) is solar hot water (in SOME markets such as Hawaii.)

Having said all this, I don't blame anyone for grabbing all the subsides they can get. It's the American way! YMMV

 

[skipro33]

The vendor told me to switch to E6 and I did. They also told me that even though you are credited in dollars, you don't actually get that rate. You get a 10 dollar bill each month and they reconcile once a year. When they do they will credit you for "net power generated", but at the wholesale rate of 4 cents a KWH, not the "going rate". She said that is why they are sizing these things at 80 to 90% of usage.

It makes sense to avoid paying 18 to 36 cents a KWH, but it doesn't make sense to generate it for 4 cents.

I built out to 100% and I now kinda wish I had built it larger. Now that I can experience the benefits of solar, I'd like to replace my gas water heater with electric and perhaps even my gas heater and stove. I use my hot tub as the 'Net Zero' floating load. I figure I might as well either run my AC more, or heat up the hot tub more in order to offset any residual electrical generation rather than sell it back for 4 cents a Kw.

I don't pay the monthly flat fee. I've been letting it accumulate. There's some sort of California energy credit I get twice a year on my bill that nearly offsets the whole thing. After a year now, my monthly flat fee is $34. I spoke to a PG&E rep and she said that was fine. No worries.

BTW, I 'financed' my solar install with one of those 'project checks' my credit card company sent me. 12 months free financing. That meant, I got my solar tax credit before I had to pay the credit card bill. Now that the 12 months zero interest is almost up, I found another credit card that will transfer balance from this one with zero interest for 15 months and no transfer fee if you transfer a credit card balance to it within 60 days of getting the card. That's 27 months of free financing, so far, on my solar installation.

As an FYI, I have 5.05kwh solar and cost me $16,400 to have it installed turn-key. It is 16 panels of Solarworld 315w commercial panels with a SolarEdge inverter and power optimizers on each panel.

Here's a link to my solar information and graphs /charts;
http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=43187&sid=39456

Play with the buttons and see what my solar and loads have been for the past year. Pretty cool technology to be able to tell what's up with my solar at any given time. There's a smart phone app for the same info if I'm out of town and want to check on stuff.

 

[Another Reader]

My neighbor was an early adopter and has a system that's almost 10 kw. He swapped everything except the furnace and he is thinking about that. I did have a very expensive PG&E bill in February for January, the majority of which was for gas heating. It's hard to justify the expense of solar, unless you can switch everything over to electric. There are a lot of capital costs involved, unless you switch over the replacement cycle. I suspect when I swap out my 10 SEER A/C unit for a 15 SEER unit when it dies, my annual electric bill will drop under $1,800. Hard to justify solar in that situation.

 

[skipro33]

The best value for your dollar is with energy efficient devices. Nothing beats not actually using electricity when trying to minimize your utility expenses. I converted everything to energy star rated appliances, LED bulbs, timers on a lot of items I could afford to offset the Time-Of-Use surcharges, etc.
Any decent solar salesman will tell you to under size the solar generation system and to upgrade to energy efficient appliances and bulbs in order to get the highest return on investment.

There are other incentives for going solar though; getting off the grid, environmental concerns, etc. I deliberately sized to 100% because I believe that electric rates are going to go much higher in the future and that my energy needs will increase, not decrease as I get older and less tolerant of hot / cold, using the laundry clothes line outside, etc.

 

[RobbieB]

Oh yeah. I took advantage of the fed tax credit and the CA cash for appliances plan back in 2010 and replaced the HVAC. 95% furnace and 15 SEER AC. Energy bill was cut in half.

Seven grand to install, but only 4 grand after rebates and credits. Strike while the rebates are hot!

I see energy prices rising also and "the older you get the colder you get" as well as less heat tolerant.

This is a preemptive strike on the cost to keep me comfortable -

 

[youbet]

There are other incentives for going solar though; getting off the grid, environmental concerns, etc.

But, are any significant number of solar users actually going off grid or are almost all of them fully connected to the grid? I'm under the impression, mostly from this thread, that hardly anyone actually has any storage capacity at all and instead rely on a grid hookup at all times.