Internal Combustion Engine has a future?

[ERD50]

The problem with renewable energy is no longer about producing it. It's about storing it for days when it's cloudy and the wind does not blow.

People keep talking about hydro storage, but they don't know how large a lake would be needed to store what the US is using in a day. ...

Storage is tough nut. It comes up on another forum I follow that is mostly tech-related. The idea gets tossed around, and it might sound reasonable at first, but the negatives keep adding up, and the result is always pretty much a dead end. Except for niche applications, where you just need the energy, and cost/efficiency isn't a major issue - then there are some pretty clever options.

And then you have the losses - a 25% round trip loss (pretty good in most cases), means you need to make 33.3% more electricity to begin with! So your costs per KW-hr are higher before you even put a penny towards the actual system.

-ERD50

 

[joeea]

The day will come when folks will look back on internal combustion engines as a quaint relic of the past (like we think of Stanley Steamers).

All-electric is the future. If it happens in my lifetime I'll be happy with it.

 

[ERD50]

The day will come when folks will look back on internal combustion engines as a quaint relic of the past (like we think of Stanley Steamers).

All-electric is the future. If it happens in my lifetime I'll be happy with it.

I'm sure that will be the case, 'someday'. Whether all-electric will be the replacement, or maybe some other unforeseen power transformation device? Who knows?

But if we are interested in the environment, and if electric cars don't really seem to be providing any big environmental advantage (and maybe are at a disadvantage) compared to modernization of the old ICE technology, then there's no reason to be pushing EVs today, until we can see that pathway.

edit/add (further edit to clarify): Are you saying that even if there are alternatives to EVs (like better versions of the ICE) that are better for the environment than EVs, you will be 'happy' if we go all-electric? That was my point earlier, we should be technology agnostic, and solution oriented.

-ERD50

 

[Music Lover]

The day will come when folks will look back on internal combustion engines as a quaint relic of the past (like we think of Stanley Steamers).

All-electric is the future. If it happens in my lifetime I'll be happy with it.

We've been hearing those claims for decades with regards to solar, wind, and electric. Although some progress has been made, without massive subsidies and a lot of compromises that no one would accept with "traditional" energy, it's just not feasible on a large scale.

I have nothing against electric vehicles...if it happens in my future, that's fine. But if it doesn't that's also fine because current vehicles are perfectly okay for my needs. Switching to electric won't improve my life in the slightest.

 

[MRG]

The day will come when folks will look back on internal combustion engines as a quaint relic of the past (like we think of Stanley Steamers).

All-electric is the future. If it happens in my lifetime I'll be happy with it.

We just did a trip on a coal fired steam powered locomotive. Plan on another one this fall!

While I think electric will supply the bulk of our power for vehicles it won't be 100%. I'm not going to shut down my bulldozer to recharge it. There's many applications for EV and many where it probably won't be optimal.

 

[joeea]

Are you saying that even if alternatives are better for the environment, you will be 'happy' if we go all-electric? That was my point earlier, we should be technology agnostic, and solution oriented.

I'd prefer a quiet, clean electric over a noisy smelly internal combustion engine, without regard to the environment.

If/when some other alternative appears that is significantly better for the environment, I might consider it, or might not.

 

[Music Lover]

edit/add: Are you saying that even if alternatives are better for the environment, you will be 'happy' if we go all-electric? That was my point earlier, we should be technology agnostic, and solution oriented.

-ERD50

That's debatable at this point. Wind turbines need massive amounts of rare earth metals, most of which are mined under suspect circumstances in a country with a poor environmental record. The production of batteries also impacts the environment, and so does the disposal of them.

Those issues have to be resolved first.

 

[Music Lover]

I'd prefer a quiet, clean electric over a noisy smelly internal combustion engine, without regard to the environment.

But the reality is that most ICE engines are both quiet and non-smelly. I can't even hear my car idling when I'm standing 10 feet away from it. Large trucks and such aside, the majority of road noise on most cars comes from the tires, not the engine.

 

[ERD50]

I'd prefer a quiet, clean electric over a noisy smelly internal combustion engine, without regard to the environment. ...

That's fine. But there's no need for the world to go "all electric", you can buy an electric car now.

Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
edit/add: Are you saying that even if alternatives are better for the environment, you will be 'happy' if we go all-electric? That was my point earlier, we should be technology agnostic, and solution oriented.

-ERD50

That's debatable at this point. Wind turbines need massive amounts of rare earth metals, most of which are mined under suspect circumstances in a country with a poor environmental record. The production of batteries also impacts the environment, and so does the disposal of them.

Those issues have to be resolved first.

I think my intention didn't come across. In this case, when I said "alternatives", I was referring to alternatives to the EV for environmental reasons. But that got twisty and confusing, since we think of EVs and solar/wind as 'alternative'. But I meant the ICE as an "alternative" to the EV! Hmm, I'll see if I can still go back and edit that for clarity.

-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

But the reality is that most ICE engines are both quiet and non-smelly. I can't even hear my car idling when I'm standing 10 feet away from it. Large trucks and such aside, the majority of road noise on most cars comes from the tires, not the engine.

And the smells are long gone (fugitive emissions). Since over 30 years ago, the auto gasoline fuel systems were built using evaporative emission control systems. This was a federal requirement. (i.e. charcoal canisters, vent controls, purge valves).

Even my 1971 VW Beetle has an evaporative emission control system.

 

[NW-Bound]

I believe I will not live long enough to see an "all-electric" motorhome. Actually it is doable now with current technology, but only rich guys like Musk can afford it. Seriously doubt I will see it affordable for me before I croak.

But in the mean time, I am going to proceed with my "solar pergola" plan. Who knows, I may get gunho and buy a used Leaf just to make quick and short errand runs, such as going the 3 miles to the nearby IKEA when my wife wants to eat their $1 breakfast again. And I will charge that LEAF with my own solar power. A retired guy needs some toys and something to do.

But no ICE at all? It's going to take a long long time.

 

[aja8888]

NW-Bound, member Al T bought a used Leaf a while back. Maybe you can PM him and see how he likes it?

 

[jazz4cash]

What's amazing to me is the awesome energy density and portability of gasoline diesel and nat gas. Tough for any all electric scheme to match. ICE is required for large scale electric peak load. Another area ICE nearly impossible to displace is emergency standby generators esp for critical facilities (hospitals, public safety, gas stations). Last big outage we had there were stations with power and no gas or gas but no power to run the pumps. The newer mega gas stations being built now require standby systems. Homeland security considerations dictate much wider application of standby power. So ICE will stick around but may have a different role in the matrix.So ICE will stick around but may have a different role in the matrix.

 

[CaptTom]

I would be interested to know how many Teslas and Priuseseses (Priae?) are tooling around MN. Weeks-months of freezing / sub-zero temps makes battery power less than attractive.
Maybe Senator can give us a quick census of EVs in MN.

I noticed electric and hybrid vehicle tests always seem to have an asterisk next to the endurance numbers. Scroll down to the bottom and you'll see that they're tested without heat or air conditioning. These tests are totally meaningless in an area like New England, with hot, humid summers and cold winters.

Consider that we are in the midst of a huge disruption which could be a perfect storm of rapid change in the next decade or so. With the combination of cheaper batteries, electric vehicles, cloud computing and ride sharing, autonomous driving, cheaper solar energy with battery storage, the current models as we know it could be drastically altered.

I keep hearing that sort of thing. But it always seems to assume everyone lives in the city. The US is not the UK, or Europe. We have large rural populations and lots of territory to cover getting from point "A" to point "B."

Outside cities, there's a practical need for a family vehicle that will take five or six people and their luggage (or groceries, or soccer gear, or whatever) at least 300 miles a day, running the heat or air conditioner the whole time. EVs aren't even close. Hybrids are already there, and that's why there's so many on the roads today.

Fast forward to when all cars are self-driving. Suddenly a lot of things become possible. I'm not so sure about the efficiency of ride-sharing in rural areas, but all those other benefits, and some we haven't thought of, become possible.

Here's one: Once all cars are run by computer, I think it's safe to assume those computers will be able to communicate. This will remove the need for stop signs. Cars will work out among themselves which one will slow down or speed up a tiny amount to allow both to pass the intersection moments apart. Ditto for stop lights. Traffic jams can be avoided before they form. Rubberneckers and sightseers won't clog the roads or cause accidents by suddenly slowing down for no reason.

In the energy crisis of the 70s, there were many people experimenting with using water tanks for thermal storage inside the home. No problem with energy leak here, as the tanks are inside the home and you do not want to insulate them anyway for passive heat transfer.

I read all those Popular Science articles back then. My own home is very well insulated, and I can get through a few hot days with no air conditioning, just on thermal mass, as long as the nights are cool and I'm home to open all the windows at night and close them when the day starts to warm up.

 

[gamboolman]

I have worked in the oilfield since 1978...and still am

The oilpatch is not going away folks....

I have supported and been interested in alternatives to hydrocarbon based fuels all my life....
but over 40 years later I am working in a 3rd world shiite hole country producing crude oil....

Oilfield is not going away for a long, long time.....

 

[NW-Bound]

There's always a limitation with EV's, that is the charging time. Take the best Tesla for example. The P100D ($140K) has a range of 315 miles, due to its battery capacity of 100 kWh. Charging a depleted battery with 100kW of power, and you still talk about 1 hour.

There are expensive new lithium iron phosphate batteries that can take a 3C charge current. Don't know if that would shorten their life or not, but for the above car it means pumping 300kW to get a charge time of 20 minutes.

Now, imagine plugging in 3 of that kind of car, and you are talking putting a drain of 1MW on the grid! Can you say "brown out"?

PS. I wonder what kind of cable can carry 300kW without using a high voltage (like 10kV). If you limit the voltage to 440V to be safe, the current is still 700A!

 

[NW-Bound]

I have mentioned the solar installation at ASU (Arizona State University) in earlier threads. It has the largest solar installation of all college campuses, and it stands at 24 MW.

See photo below, which is just a fraction of all its installations. It has a total number of 81,424 panels.

So, you think that's a lot, but at 24 MW it can only charge 75 cars at a time, if each draws 300 kW. And that 24 MW is at the peak too, when the sun is directly overhead.

 

[samclem]

So, you think that's a lot, but at 24 MW it can only charge 75 cars at a time, if each draws 300 kW. And that 24 MW is at the peak too, when the sun is directly overhead.

? These electric cars draw at 300kW during charging? A typical house (150 amp panel x 120 VAC) has an 18 KW capacity, so one charging car would draw the same current as 17 homes with the panel maxed out? That seems like a lot.

 

[NW-Bound]

No cars draw that much right now.

I was describing what one would need to charge a car with a range of 315 miles in 20 minutes, using the best lithium battery on the market.

The current Tesla P100D takes 1.33 hours to charge, and that is at a supercharging station. At home, even wired up to 220V, it takes more than 10 hours.

 

[NW-Bound]

A typical house (150 amp panel x 120 VAC) has an 18 KW capacity...

18kW is what a car needs constantly at highway cruising speed.

This means if you drive for 1 hour, the recharge time will be 1 hour using the max power wired into a home (you are pumping in energy at the same rate you deplete it at highway speed).

Of course, you have to save some juice for your AC and other appliances, so the charging time will have to be longer. See my post above.

Cars are truly energy hogs. Perhaps it's better to ban personal cars, and make people take public transportation. Or they can walk.

 

[travelover]

There's always a limitation with EV's, that is the charging time. Take the best Tesla for example. The P100D ($140K) has a range of 315 miles, due to its battery capacity of 100 kWh. Charging a depleted battery with 100kW of power, and you still talk about 1 hour..........
....

Seems like batteries could be swapped out like propane tanks - leave an empty, take a full one. Obviously the batteries would have to be designed so they are easy to remove and install.

 

[samclem]

18kW is what a car needs constantly at highway cruising speed.

Which equals about 24 HP, and sounds about right. A 2 ton central AC compressor/fan takes about 3800 watts, so a car just cruising down the road requires as much power as about 5 home air conditioners, or a single house with the electrical panel maxed out. Wow, it's a good thing we happened on the IC engine and that gasoline has a tremendous energy density, else a "car" such as we know it would have been deemed impossible.

As folks contemplate the wonders of all-electric cars and the superbattery that will make them possible, I hope we are including the energy cost (embodied energy and the energy cost of installation) for the thousands of miles of additional aluminum/copper cable/wire, poles, etc needed to provide the juice to them.

 

[Chuckanut]

Seems like batteries could be swapped out like propane tanks - leave an empty, take a full one. Obviously the batteries would have to be designed so they are easy to remove and install.

Just as we have standards for ICE engines in terms of fuel, fuel dispensers, etc. we will need standards for batter packs for cars. Heaven help us if they do what the high-tech personal devices do and all use a unique battery for each device, many with their own special charger.

I imagine each vehicle would need a number of independently swapable battery packs to make this work in real life. After all we often don't wait until the tank is empty to fill-up when driving into a less populated area.

 

[NW-Bound]

Battery swapping can certainly speed up the "refueling" process. In fact, Tesla demonstrated this a while back. Seems like nothing much happened after this, and it was not put into practice.

The problem with battery swapping is that these expensive batteries are not yet treated as commodity. Would you want to swap out your mint condition battery for something unknown? Who knows how many times the guy before you has run down the battery and severely reduced its capacity?

For this to work, we need a different business model. You do not own any battery, but the "refueling" station owns them, and sells the use of them. They will have to guarantee a certain performance, lest you get stranded on the road with 2/3 the mileage that you expect. And then, the cost of refueling will have to be computed based on actual kWh delivered, not the nominal.

 

[NW-Bound]

Just as we have standards for ICE engines in terms of fuel, fuel dispensers, etc. we will need standards for batter packs for cars. Heaven help us if they do what the high-tech personal devices do and all use a unique battery for each device, many with their own special charger...

Oh boy! Now you are talking about common battery sizes and different car makers will have to make their chassis to a certain specification to accept these batteries.

Obviously, something as small as a Smart car will take a smaller battery than a big honking SUV. And then, for the same car people may not want to take the same battery size. For daily driving, you do not want to haul around a big battery pack good enough for 500 miles. But when on a summer trip, you will want to.

This will not happen for a long long time. Right now, the batteries are so big they are specifically designed for each car chassis, because they have to fit the available space and their weight (up to 1000 lbs) affects the handling. Safety also comes into play here.

I have been researching different battery packs for different cars, e.g. Tesla, Volt, Leaf, etc... The motivation is that junk yards are selling battery packs out of wrecked cars, and DIY'ers are buying them to salvage the internal packs to use for home solar projects. Repurposing these car battery packs is more economical than buying new ones that are ready to go.

Tinkerers are going to town on their projects, and I find this underground movement very interesting. The internal construction of these battery packs varies quite a bit.

By the way, it is not simple to remove and replace a battery pack. They have internal plumbing to cool the battery pack, and as you can figure, disconnecting and reconnecting coolant hoses can be messy and failure prone. It is nowhere as simple as swapping out a battery pack on your cordless drill.

PS. I have not found out the weight of the 100kWh battery inside the Tesla P100D, but an earlier 85kWh version weighs 1200 lbs.