How To Buy A New Car

[Walt34]

I'm another one questioning how much reward there is for the effort. When I looked at the 'True Car' prices, it seems the difference between 'good deal' and a 'great deal' was a few hundred dollars. How much work to go from 'good' to 'great'?

I gather from reading posts about the subject of buying cars that for a lot of people, like Midpack, it isn't about getting the best deal for the least amount of time. It is about the sport of getting the best deal, period. It's a game to those folks, and the time spent on it is enjoyable, because after all, it's a game. They spend a lot of time on it because it is enjoyable, and the financial aspect is only part of it, and perhaps a minor one at that.

While buying cars isn't a game that is enjoyable to me, I can understand it. I've spent gobs of time building a radio control model, an activity that would bore most people to tears, but I've become so engrossed in a model that I'll suddenly realize that I'm tired, and then realize that "Gee, it's 2:00 AM and I have to be at work in five hours!"

At the other end of the scale, many people get all excited about a football game, which is an activity that bores me to tears. I've stared in astonishment at someone jumping to their feet and yelling at a TV screen and spilling their beer (a travesty!) over a football play. Just amazing, to me. Do they really think that yelling at a TV screen is going to affect the outcome of the play? Of course not, but it's a part of the enthusiasm for the sport, and that part is understandable.

So that's why so many people will spend weeks hunting down the best deal. It's about the sport, and the game of it.

 

[MichaelB]

No, no, troll.
Just a happy owner.

sheep. You brought it up. I would never call anybody that.

Animal Farm
-George Orwell
1954 ?

No. Don't know all. Still learning, you with me?

Happy trails

Did you forget "Emeritus" in your post title, or are you referring to one of the moderators?

You might consider dialing down the attitude just a bit. That'll probably help a bit with the name calling.

 

[ERD50]

I gather from reading posts about the subject of buying cars that for a lot of people, like Midpack, it isn't about getting the best deal for the least amount of time. It is about the sport of getting the best deal, period. It's a game to those folks, and the time spent on it is enjoyable, because after all, it's a game. They spend a lot of time on it because it is enjoyable, and the financial aspect is only part of it, and perhaps a minor one at that.
....

Right, and it wasn't really directed at posters like Midpack, who made it clear he 'enjoys the game'. That's different.

But I am wondering if it is worth the time for most people, who aren't going to be that good at it? My feeling is, I'm good with 'good enough'. I will do the research to make sure I'm not taken for a ride (other than the test drive!), but I'm just not going to spend hours and hours and drive time on squeaking out a couple hundred $. A couple thousand, OK, but I don't think there is that much delta in a LBYM-price range car between basic research and really 'working the deal'.

But maybe I'm wrong? Can I expect to get the exact model, options and color I want for thousands less than a 'good deal' on a mid-priced car?

-ERD50

 

[Senator]

I just ordered a new Ford truck. MSRP price was $78,590. Invoice price was $74,119. My price was $73,319. I should have a about another $5,000 off the price in incentives after that. I actually had one dealer about $200 less, but I would not get my accumulated dealer cash back from all my car maintenance at that particular dealer.

I requested bids from five different dealers via email. Here is the email I sent, most via the online form on the dealers website.

I knew what I wanted. I just needed the best price. All came in under invoice. Most came in under true Car pricing. it was easy

I am ordering a 2017 Ford F350 this week. Please give me your best price, without any Ford incentives that are available from any Ford dealer.

Ford F350. Platinum SRW (713A). Crew Cab, 4x4, 8’ box, 176” wheel base. (W3B)
I will have the following options on it.

GN - White Gold
7B - Black Leather interior
99T – 6.7 Diesel
96P – Platinum Ultimate
17X - FX4 Off-Road Package
473 - Snow Plow Prep Package
41H - Engine Block Heater (Std)
67B - Dual Extra Heavy-Duty Alternator
53W - 5th Wheel/Gooseneck Hitch Prep Package
874 - Ultimate Trailer Tow Camera System (96P)
41A - Rapid-Heat Supplemental Cab Heater (Std)
66S - Upfitter Switches
653 - Individual Trailer TPMS/Customer-Placed Trailer Camera
X3J – 3.55 Electronic Locking rear axle
41P - Skid Plates (17X)

 

[Faraday]

Did you forget "Emeritus" in your post title, or are you referring to one of the moderators?

You might consider dialing down the attitude just a bit. That'll probably help a bit with the name calling.

Dear MichaelB, thank you for pointing out my error(s) and "attitude". Your right.

Please forum, accept my apology.

See, I'm still learning,.. like last week at lunch when I saw my Tesla service center mechanic, (yeah, you can actually talk to one,try that at your Dealership) she said to me "you know, with Tesla's regenerative braking you'll probably never need to renew the brakes pads. If we see them even close to the margin we will renew them. I did not know that.

P.S. Can't wait till end of Sept. when Tesla unveils the Tesla Semi Truck!

Disruption.

I hope this does not come across as attitude. certainly not my intent. just looking forward,..

Thank you, MichaelB and forum for educating me.

Yours,

 

[rodi]

And you test drove a ?

Is that what you're going to buy?

Subaru Forester. Maybe. Still in the decision mode but leaning towards yes.

Bottom of the line model. But it comes in manual transmission and has plenty of leg room in the backseat for my giant sons. Also tall enough to satisfy DH's desire to be high up. This is the only new car that meets our criteria. Still looking to see it there's a used car that meets our very odd criteria. The 0% financing is interesting.

 

[ERD50]

Dear MichaelB, thank you for pointing out my error(s) and "attitude". Your right.

Please forum, accept my apology.

.....

I hope this does not come across as attitude. certainly not my intent. just looking forward,..

Thank you, MichaelB and forum for educating me.

Yours,

Maybe if you posted about something other than how great you think a Tesla is, it wouldn't seem so much like trolling.

This is an Early Retirement forum. Yes, we talk about lots of things, but most people take the time to introduce themselves in terms of their Early Retirement. And they post about financial matters regarding... Early Retirement. And among those posts, they might talk about a range of other things, but anyone posting about a single subject as likely to be looked at as a troll.

... See, I'm still learning,.. like last week at lunch when I saw my Tesla service center mechanic, (yeah, you can actually talk to one,try that at your Dealership) she said to me "you know, with Tesla's regenerative braking you'll probably never need to renew the brakes pads. If we see them even close to the margin we will renew them. I did not know that. ...

You didn't know that? Really? That's hard to believe that someone so enamored with the Tesla would not know that. It really sounds to me more like you want other people to know that (and are using this forum to announce it)!

BTW, here's something else you may not know. Just about any hybrid, you know, those cars with an ICE in them, use regenerative braking and you'll probably never need to renew the brake pads. Ask any Prius owner.

Over 400K miles on original Prius Brakes?

Over 400K miles on original Prius Brakes? | CleanMPG

P.S. Can't wait till end of Sept. when Tesla unveils the Tesla Semi Truck!

Disruption

Yep, that should be 'fun'.

-ERD50

 

[Packman]

Not much discussion about the "trade-in" aspect of buying a new vehicle. Yes, I know you can just go to Car Max and sell it, or sell it yourself, but giving up the sales tax value of the traded car kind of forces one to deal with the new car dealership. And it's ugly. On my last new car purchase with a trade, I had one Honda dealer refuse to give me back my keys. I literally had to stand in front of the sales manager, cell phone in hand, and begin to dial the police before they gave me my keys. And then they had to gall to think that I would still negotiate with them.

 

[Midpack]

So that's why so many people will spend weeks hunting down the best deal. It's about the sport, and the game of it.

While I've admitted I enjoy negotiating for new cars (we keep our cars for 8-12 years so it's not often), I've NEVER devoted a week, much less "weeks hunting down the best deal" and I never would either. It takes me two or three hours over a matter of days, capped by one or two dealer visits. That was part of my point, it doesn't have to take that much time, the buyer can control the time spent to as little as he/she wants. The law of diminishing returns applies, there's no way to know you've gotten that last dollar, and it's not worth the extra time to me either. But I know from actual experience you can leave thousands on the table, that's worth a little effort to me.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

May I reccommend a book for all you Ice car shoppers and buyers to read.

Propaganda
-Edward Bernays
1928

It can summarized by watching episode 3 "Aspiration" of Charlie Booker's show "How TV Ruined Your Life".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_TV_Ruined_Your_Life

Or, just realize that advertisers work very hard to get your money. There, I saved everyone a good bit of time.

 

[Texas Proud]

Reading up on the Carvana process and still trying to evaluate how much fantasy is involved with their "auto vending machine". Saw an interview with CEO on CNBC awhile back and he was speaking of a literal vending machine but they only showed animated images. Now I see they have a new vending machine that can hold 30 cars. That's a trivial quantity so it's an appeal to someone that loves the idea of buying from a machine?

I think the machine is for people who have already bought and are picking it up.... not to display cars for someone to buy...

 

[ERD50]

May I reccommend a book for all you Ice car shoppers and buyers to read.

Propaganda
-Edward Bernays
1928

It can summarized by watching episode 3 "Aspiration" of Charlie Booker's show "How TV Ruined Your Life".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_TV_Ruined_Your_Life

Or, just realize that advertisers work very hard to get your money. There, I saved everyone a good bit of time.

Thanks for saving me the time ExFlyBoy5!

There have been a few threads lately, that leave me amazed at how naive some people seem to be. Yes, successful companies (and want-to-be-successful companies), try to get you to buy their product. This seems to be a revelation, or 'evil' to some people.

Maybe it's not quite "Things I learned in Kindergarten", but it oughta be about "Things I learned by 5th Grade".

-ERD50

 

[Texas Proud]

Right, and it wasn't really directed at posters like Midpack, who made it clear he 'enjoys the game'. That's different.

But I am wondering if it is worth the time for most people, who aren't going to be that good at it? My feeling is, I'm good with 'good enough'. I will do the research to make sure I'm not taken for a ride (other than the test drive!), but I'm just not going to spend hours and hours and drive time on squeaking out a couple hundred $. A couple thousand, OK, but I don't think there is that much delta in a LBYM-price range car between basic research and really 'working the deal'.

But maybe I'm wrong? Can I expect to get the exact model, options and color I want for thousands less than a 'good deal' on a mid-priced car?

-ERD50

One thing to add.... the car salesmen are very good at reading people... a few years back I was trying to help negotiate for my sister.... I was showing the posted numbers for sale prices etc... told sis that she needed to be willing to walk.... salesman knew sis wanted the car and refused to bring the price down... said that the websites knew nothing etc. etc.... so she bought for the price they were willing to give anybody.... not a horrible price, but I think it cost her at least $1,000...


Now she had new car fever... and wants me to help again... I will use some of the techniques listed and go father than we did before... we should be able to pick up that $1,000 and maybe a bit more... as long as I can do it online or over the phone...

 

[Texas Proud]

Not much discussion about the "trade-in" aspect of buying a new vehicle. Yes, I know you can just go to Car Max and sell it, or sell it yourself, but giving up the sales tax value of the traded car kind of forces one to deal with the new car dealership. And it's ugly. On my last new car purchase with a trade, I had one Honda dealer refuse to give me back my keys. I literally had to stand in front of the sales manager, cell phone in hand, and begin to dial the police before they gave me my keys. And then they had to gall to think that I would still negotiate with them.

The good part about Car Max is that it kinda forces the dealer to give a decent price on a trade in.... well, except that some will not .... when my sis bought her new car a few years back the dealer said they would not match Car Max... period... at least she got more money for her car as the dealer had it a couple thousand less than Max....

 

[brucethebroker]

Dealers are going to make money. I can use strategies like those posted here to minimize the price of a new car, but maximizing the price of my old car is more of a problem.

Maybe people can comment on how they do that.

Hey Indie, I just returned to the post and noticed your request. I have sold 25 or so used cars over my lifetime. Here is my (recently refined) technique:

1. Take present car to a detailing service-usually $100-$150.
2. Repair any known mechanical problems.
3. Try to sell when there is minimum wear on the tires.
4. Go to KBB.com and research used car prices. Use their "condition of vehicle" guide conservatively. I split the difference between "trade in" value and "sell it yourself" value. Maybe pad a little if my car is really, really nice.
5. Order a "Carfax" report and advertise that in your ad.
6. Post on Craigslist. Agree to meet ONLY at the bank of the buyers choice, where the cashier can hand over cash or a check as you watch. I tell the buyer on the phone/email that I will not accept the cash or checks he/she brings along.

A couple of things: I now conduct all Craigslist transactions in the parking lots of banks during business hours. Lots of security cameras and people coming and going (for safety.

My cars are usually sold with 130k-150k of miles on them, so they are usually in the $3,000-$5,000 range. Because of the low $ amount, the loss of sales tax credit for a dealership trade-in is not a concern. If I was trading in a $10,000 plus vehicle, it might be worth it to just trade. BUT, I don't like to muddy the water during the negotiation process with the dealer.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

My cars are usually sold with 130k-150k of miles on them, so they are usually in the $3,000-$5,000 range. Because of the low $ amount, the loss of sales tax credit for a dealership trade-in is not a concern. If I was trading in a $10,000 plus vehicle, it might be worth it to just trade. BUT, I don't like to muddy the water during the negotiation process with the dealer.

That's a pretty good point w/ the taxes. Here in Georgia, the tax is currently 7% (might adjust next year, but should "never" exceed 9%). So, if I value my trade-in at $6,000, that's $420...not a minimal amount, but could probably be made up fairly easily w/ a private sale. We keep our cars garaged and as a result, they look pretty good. Most of the time when I take my '09 in for oil, the service writers will comment about how nice the car looks for it's age/mileage...this doesn't make much of a hill of beans to a dealer when you are trying to trade it in, but to a private buyer, it can make a difference.

Edit: I was messing around on the Carvana website and discovered something interesting. I have always heard that the best interest rates are "reserved" for those w/ 800+ scores. I have also been told that anything above that is just, well, pointless. The Carvana site says otherwise...here is what their "sliding scale" shows for a $20,000 loan...

780 5.29%
800 4.83%
820 3.95%
850 3.70%

I was somewhat surprised to see nearly a full point difference between 800 and 820. Personally, it wouldn't matter to me as I wouldn't finance unless I could get 0% (or very, VERY close).

 

[freedomatlast]

Not much discussion about the "trade-in" aspect of buying a new vehicle. Yes, I know you can just go to Car Max and sell it, or sell it yourself, but giving up the sales tax value of the traded car kind of forces one to deal with the new car dealership.

In some states you can do a "courtesy trade" to have the best of both worlds.
Here's how it works. You sell your old vehicle privately. You inform the buyer you will be doing the paper work at the dealer where you are buying your new or used car. The dealer only charges you tax on the difference in price of the vehicle you are buying and the one you are selling. To the state records, it appears your old vehicle was in the dealer's inventory for a very short time. I've done this on several occasions over the years. Works great as long as you manage the timing. Dealers are usually glad to do it to make the sale and they make a small profit from doing the paperwork.

 

[Independent]

Hey Indie, I just returned to the post and noticed your request. I have sold 25 or so used cars over my lifetime. Here is my (recently refined) technique:

1. Take present car to a detailing service-usually $100-$150.
2. Repair any known mechanical problems.
3. Try to sell when there is minimum wear on the tires.
4. Go to KBB.com and research used car prices. Use their "condition of vehicle" guide conservatively. I split the difference between "trade in" value and "sell it yourself" value. Maybe pad a little if my car is really, really nice.
5. Order a "Carfax" report and advertise that in your ad.
6. Post on Craigslist. Agree to meet ONLY at the bank of the buyers choice, where the cashier can hand over cash or a check as you watch. I tell the buyer on the phone/email that I will not accept the cash or checks he/she brings along.

A couple of things: I now conduct all Craigslist transactions in the parking lots of banks during business hours. Lots of security cameras and people coming and going (for safety.

My cars are usually sold with 130k-150k of miles on them, so they are usually in the $3,000-$5,000 range. Because of the low $ amount, the loss of sales tax credit for a dealership trade-in is not a concern. If I was trading in a $10,000 plus vehicle, it might be worth it to just trade. BUT, I don't like to muddy the water during the negotiation process with the dealer.

Thanks. I've never used Craigslist, so that didn't occur to me.
I see that KBB has a gap of nearly $3,000 between trade-in and sell to private party, so I can see the possibility of coming out ahead financially.
My public library carries the NADA books, so that's another source for pricing.

My issue has always been test drives. How do you handle them?

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

I never heard of Clark Howard before, is he a Dave Ramsey type of guy? I googled him it seems so. I needed to comment on this thread as I might be in the market for a car.

 

[braumeister]

I never heard of Clark Howard before, is he a Dave Ramsey type of guy? I googled him it seems so. I needed to comment on this thread as I might be in the market for a car.

Just to clear up a possible misunderstanding:

You don't have to comment on a thread to subscribe to it.
In the "Thread Tools" link at the top, you can "Subscribe to this Thread" without making a posting yourself.

I do that whenever I see one I'd like to look up later. In the "Edit Details" section of the Control Panel, I have the Default Thread Subscription Mode set to "Do not subscribe." There are several other options available for that as well.

Hope that helps.

 

[Bamaman]

I never heard of Clark Howard before, is he a Dave Ramsey type of guy? I googled him it seems so. I needed to comment on this thread as I might be in the market for a car.

Clark Howard has a very popular syndicated radio show out of Atlanta and he has newspaper column in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. And he runs a vo!unteer operated consumer action operation that assists citizens when contractors and others take advantage of people. Clark has also written a bunch of books on frugal living and personal finance.

Clark sold a large travel agency in his early 30's and he has advised his radio listeners how to save big money on worldwide travel. He has travel agents scouring the internet for bargains and has saved his listeners/readers $100's of millions in airfares over the years.

Clark's advice has often allowed my wife and I to be perpetual travelers.

 

[Bamaman]

We have been in the market to replace our 10 year old Lexus. We were looking at ordering a 2018 Camry--a completely New car design.

Our local dealer purchases his inventories from Southeast Toyota Distributors --not directly from Toyota. The cars on their lot also a secondary window sticker with $1200 in paint sealant and floor mats--straight profit. And they are owned by a large chain of dealerships that adds $699 Documentation Fees which is all profit. Then they try to sell you Gap Insurance, Credit Life and Accident/Health insurance--back end profits. They attempt to get the customer on the front end, in the middle and on back end.

I consider this dealer to be a slam and jam operation with a high employee turnover. I prefer to do business with a locally owned less aggressive: (on my pocketbook) dealership.

I ordered a 2018 Camry Hybrid and paid $177 under invoice Out The Door. I drove an hour north to a family run dealership that doesn't purchase vehicles from an outside distributor.

We love the Camry hybrid and it is getting 52.5 mpg--manually figured.

 

[Texas Proud]

We have been in the market to replace our 10 year old Lexus. We were looking at ordering a 2018 Camry--a completely New car design.

Our local dealer purchases his inventories from Southeast Toyota Distributors --not directly from Toyota. The cars on their lot also a secondary window sticker with $1200 in paint sealant and floor mats--straight profit. And they are owned by a large chain of dealerships that adds $699 Documentation Fees which is all profit. Then they try to sell you Gap Insurance, Credit Life and Accident/Health insurance--back end profits. They attempt to get the customer on the front end, in the middle and on back end.

I consider this dealer to be a slam and jam operation with a high employee turnover. I prefer to do business with a locally owned less aggressive: (on my pocketbook) dealership.

I ordered a 2018 Camry Hybrid and paid $177 under invoice Out The Door. I drove an hour north to a family run dealership that doesn't purchase vehicles from an outside distributor.

We love the Camry hybrid and it is getting 52.5 mpg--manually figured.

I know here in Texas it is impossible to buy a Toyota without the middle man distributor... I think Toyota has tried to get rid of them but has failed...

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

The cars on their lot also a secondary window sticker with $1200 in paint sealant and floor mats--straight profit. And they are owned by a large chain of dealerships that adds $699 Documentation Fees which is all profit. Then they try to sell you Gap Insurance, Credit Life and Accident/Health insurance--back end profits. They attempt to get the customer on the front end, in the middle and on back end.

LOL, I love this dealer. Did he have a lot on 4th avenue in Brooklyn? I think I visited it before they closed him down.

 

[kgtest]

just went through GM dealer buying process with a GMC 2500hd denali. two new truck deals in past five years and said no to a Yukon.

There is the name your lowest price...and you better know what that lowest number for equivalent options is.

It's much easier to work up to a Denali than it is to work DOWN to a Base model, get the absolute lowest price available for a base model and smile.

Dealers for GM offer specific regional-based and model-based incentives. Get these to line up along with supplier pricing and military discounts. Occasionally you can get a GM under pressure to deliver by month end and he will drop it $500-1000 with a miraculous incentive that was left over from "another car deal that didn't happen".

Show the dealer/sales you aren't married and committed to their specific dealer, but you are committed to buying the cheapest available model. Tell them the names of other sales guys at other dealers in the region so they know you arent bluffing.

I used to think June was the best month to buy a truck, then I thought it was July, and then I thought it was August...but in reality it's whenever the MOST dealer+regional incentives and cash back bonus offers are running concurrently.

Truck1: I simply offered my price when asked "hoiw much are you willing to pay for this very specific model that we happen to have" And I offered exactly $10,000 less than the 42,000 sticker price after cashback.

Truck2: Realized I could do better than truck1, Found truck sticker'd at $54k in middle of country, offered $42k only to get some him-haw and a callback to ask for a deposit. Drove 12hrs straight and spent 5hrs telling the GM NO to all the paint, extended warranty blah blah. Out the door for 42k, brand new 2017 2500HD Duramax

Truck3: Tried to leverage prior two dealers with "loyal customer" history to no avail. At this point I knew I had already bought 2 trucks for 10k + off sticker. I told salesman from truck2 I wouldn't buy truck3 unless I got $10,000 off minimum. He him-haw'd for a week, said he couldn't quite get there but close even knowing I already shed $10k off truck 2,

Then another two weeks went buy he offered me a little bit better deal. Finally month end was two days upon me and he offered me more than the $10k off if I took a finance offer and offered to pay for gas for 12hr trip but only if I did it before the month ended. I declined. He called me the next month with a better deal, I declined that as well. Guess it turns out I didn't want a Yukon Denali as much as I thought I did. $41k for OTD on a brand new 2017 Yukon wouldn't have been a bad price tho.


EDIT: Notice how I speak in MONTHS, not minutes. DO NOT walk into a dealer and walk out 55minutes later with a new car. Negotiate. They know time kills all deals.