Persistence of the American Dream

[travelover]

Anyone that has less money than me is a lazy bum that just doesn't want to work as hard as I did. Anyone with more money than me probably stole it, or worse, inherited it.

 

[HtownRose]

I think this is a fundamental disagreement here. Some people see funneling 400million to your kids to avoid estate tax as “hard work” and others see it as a ‘system that allows the rich to break the rules and increase their wealth while the poor don’t have options’ - similar to successful doctors Incorporating themselves offshore so they can avoid taxes; know a few who do this. Unfortunately I, as a salaried employee don’t really have that option and end up paying 20% of my income in taxes.

Sure, I could ‘pull myself up by my bootstraps, start my own business, and incorporate overseas as well to avoid taxes’ but I don’t believe the cost of the legal services would outweigh the savings for my income. So instead, I subsidize the Rick doctor with my tax money and I subsidize the rich real estate developer (and his low paid workers) with my taxes.

Agreed, this is a fundamental disagreement. IMO the desire to be able to choose who the fruits of your labor will benefit is as immutable as gravity, but that's just my opinion. Maybe if we made it illegal to pass on any wealth & 100% of assets reverted to the government at death, people would continue to work as hard to accumulate wealth as they do now.

I can only vouch for my own personal experience. There is no one I am motivated to leave an inheritance to, and so as soon as I had accumulated enough for a modest but comfortable retirement, I downshifted my career & now work part time for under $15 an hour just for health insurance. I plan to harvest capital gains at 0% tax & Roth convert part of my tIRA until I'm eligible for either retiree health insurance or Medicare. YMMV.

 

[razztazz]

Doesn't work like that around here. Can't get anyone in a reasonable time frame at any price.

We pay top dollar, pay on time and the checks don't bounce...doesn't get us anything. Painter came over yesterday (after 4 missed appointments) and told us he couldn't start for 4 months; just for a 4 day job to paint a kitchen.

HA! I thought this was just happening to me because I live in a small town. Can't get anybody to trim this tree all Summer. And a few other chores. One guy eventually showed up, gave me an estimate. I said "go for it" then he never came back. called his office a few times WTF?.

Yes, I have noticed since I was a youngster there doesn't seem to be any real incentive to doing the right thing right and playing by the rules.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

I think it depends on what one considers the "Dream". I would not add American as everyone is in the same boat no matter who they are. Here are my Criteria in the order of importance.

1) Having affordable GOOD COMPREHENSIVE Healthcare.
2) Having a nice comfortable home
3a) Not seeing snow..... ever
3b) Living within walking distance of a nice beach
4) Not waiting in traffic to get my groceries or move about town or go to Docs
5) Having enough means to have an upper middle class Quality of Life.

We have them all with the exception of number 1. This is absolutely the most important factor in any retirees life, and should be number 1 for everyone.

 

[MichaelB]

Rugged individualism, personal responsibility, strong work ethic and overcoming obstacles are core beliefs and fundamental components of our social fabric. They are the building blocks of our history and are themes of the stories of our achievement, and we point to their absence to explain poor outcomes.

The type of achievement we enjoy – early retirement and financial independence – demands all that, and good fortune as well. It requires 100% effort, many smart choices, but the things we cannot change also need to break our way. It really takes 150%. Our view is colored by survivorship bias, there are few or no members here who worked hard and made smart choices still suffered poor outcomes because of circumstances beyond their control.

It does not detract from our achievement to acknowledge we also made some poor choices and enjoyed good fortune. I think the thread title and subject are reminders that we should try to make sure others are able to benefit from their efforts just as we did.

 

[samclem]

Steinbeck is quoted* as saying "socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

I think the thread title and subject are reminders that we should try to make sure others are able to benefit from their efforts just as we did.

Agree to both. And it is essential (IMO) that opportunity and a good chance for success exist for all Americans--in both reality and in their perception of reality. If that hope is extinguished, the potential for some ruinous "disruption" is high. That will be bad for both the "haves' and the "have nots." To this extent, we are all in this together.
A key consideration is whether Weiderspan's proposed solutions take us in a positive or negative direction in this regard.

 

[redduck]

<snip>This doctoral dissertation that I just came across https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/140842/jwieds_1.pdf?...1... approaches the issue from somewhat of a tangent. Specifically, she asks how people continue to believe in the "work hard/make smart choices" American Dream in the face of objective measures that show that may not be sufficient for them.

Does anybody else wonder how Gumby came across a 550 page doctoral dissertation coming out of a social work program? Anybody? Gumby?

 

[Gumby]

It was referenced in something else I was reading online, but I can't remember precisely what.

 

[redduck]

It was referenced in something else I was reading online, but I can't remember precisely what.

Ah, the trail runs cold.

 

[brett]

I believe that the American Dream still exists.

It is the economy that has changed. And continues to change. It requires new skills to survive, and the continual acquisition of skills. It also requires flexiblity and the ability to duck and dive, and to adapt. Hard work is not enough. You have to work hard and work smart.

 

[walkinwood]

Sorry, I only read things that reinforce my preconceived ideas.

Haha!



I thought you had to read a piece before having an opinion on it.



I found myself having opinions on things I knew very little beyond the headlines, so I have made a conscious decision to not have an opinion on most things.

 

[Fedup]

I believe that the American Dream still exists.

It is the economy that has changed. And continues to change. It requires new skills to survive, and the continual acquisition of skills. It also requires flexiblity and the ability to duck and dive, and to adapt. Hard work is not enough. You have to work hard and work smart.

I agree that it still exists judging by my younger cousins in the Bay Area. They graduated in year 2000, they were not known to be brainy in the first place, last Ive heard they been trading up to bigger and better house in SJ.

 

[GravitySucks]

The biggest lie out in the world is hard work leads to wealth.
The easier work got the more lucrative it became. Hard work jobs paid crap back then and pay even less now.

 

[unclemick]

I’m a citizen, and will critique, complain, or whine as I see fit.

Hard work sucks. I was always against that silly idear (sick). Now smart choices like index fund and siting still/'just stand there' while it compounds it's little heart out is fun.

American dream - a fish camp in the swamp - no utilities (except electricity), no property tax, no medical insurance(cause I'm healthy) and a beater car for the city once in awhile, etc, etc. Cheap was my middle name.

heh heh heh - Katrina - luck would have it I was forced to move to high ground, marry a widow with money, and generally re-dream the narrative to a different version of the American Dream. So how many versions are out there? Many I suspect.

 

[RobbieB]

Hard work does suck. That's why I got an engineering degree, so I wouldn't have to work hard.

I did the least possible to get by so as to maximize my personal time.

 

[robnplunder]

I believe that the American Dream still exists.

It is the economy that has changed. And continues to change. It requires new skills to survive, and the continual acquisition of skills. It also requires flexiblity and the ability to duck and dive, and to adapt. Hard work is not enough. You have to work hard and work smart.

+1.

If I were to add, I'd add "for most" at the end of brett's 1st sentence above. Personally, I know of many close to me who just don't have the will, discipline, desire, etc.. to achieve their dream. Some are born into impossibly dysfunctional family. Others inherited poverty for generations. Some have mental disease. Some lack intelligence to carry out a plan to achieve anything. Others fall prey to drugs, gambling, and other vice. But for most of us, it is there for us to take. We need to have a plan, good work ethic, persistence, a bit of luck here and there, .....

 

[NW-Bound]

I cannot remember when I first heard or read the phrase "American Dream", but will admit that I have not researched its origin.

It turns out Wikipedia has a good entry right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream.

North of us, do people talk about the "Canadian Dream"? It may not be called as such, but let me tell you that something like that is still alive from what I saw.

I have always wanted to travel to the Okanagan Valley region of Canada, and had a chance to do so when coming back to the US from Alaska in my RV trek earlier this summer. South of Kelowna, along Highway 97 all the way to the US border is a land of fruit orchards and wineries which is possible with water from the Okanagan River which flows south into the US.

My wife loves fruit orchards, and I managed to find convenient spots to stop at three different orchards for her to get out and to visit. All three had a fruit stand, manned by an Indian. And they looked like the owner or family member, meaning not hired help. Looking around, we saw that the farmhands were also South Asian.

At one of the fruit stands, a nice elderly man identified himself as the owner of the orchard. He was definitely a first-generation Canadian. We asked what fruit he grew, and he said only cherry, but he was in the process of buying an adjacent lot with different fruits.

I found it fascinating that South Asian newcomers were prevalent in this fruit growing region. Were they successful because they did not mind hard work, and took over orchards that original owners had problems passing on to their heirs to operate?

I later researched, and found that in the town of Oliver, Sikhs own 70% of orchards and wineries, which they bought from the Portuguese immigrants who migrated there in 1950s. Hard work pays off for these Sikhs, and I am happy for them.

 

[pjigar]

I cannot remember when I first heard or read the phrase "American Dream", but will admit that I have not researched its origin.

It turns out Wikipedia has a good entry right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream.

North of us, do people talk about the "Canadian Dream"? It may not be called as such, but let me tell you that something like that is still alive from what I saw.

I have always wanted to travel to the Okanagan Valley region of Canada, and had a chance to do so when coming back to the US from Alaska in my RV trek earlier this summer. South of Kelowna, along Highway 97 all the way to the US border is a land of fruit orchards and wineries which is possible with water from the Okanagan River which flows south into the US.

My wife loves fruit orchards, and I managed to find convenient spots to stop at three different orchards for her to get out and to visit. All three had a fruit stand, manned by an Indian. And they looked like the owner or family member, meaning not hired help. Looking around, we saw that the farmhands were also South Asian.

At one of the fruit stands, a nice elderly man identified himself as the owner of the orchard. He was definitely a first-generation Canadian. We asked what fruit he grew, and he said only cherry, but he was in the process of buying an adjacent lot with different fruits.

I found it fascinating that South Asian newcomers were prevalent in this fruit growing region. Were they successful because they did not mind hard work, and took over orchards that original owners had problems passing on to their heirs to operate?

I later researched, and found that in the town of Oliver, Sikhs own 70% of orchards and wineries, which they bought from the Portuguese immigrants who migrated there in 1950s. Hard work pays off for these Sikhs, and I am happy for them.

I am a first generation (legal) immigrant and I too didn't even hear the term "American Dream" until after I achieved it! The opportunities are there and I know so many successful first generation immigrants from both extremes of highly educated to highly uneducated. So as far as I can see, the American Dream is alive and well but you have to work hard to make it a reality.

 

[HFWR]

The “American Dream” is one of the myths that we have, right up there with Washington chopping down the cherry tree. All countries have myths, or some narrative that makes them “special”.

Having said that, the USA has laws that protect property rights, a relatively stable banking and finance system, no laws limiting who can own a business, etc.

Rash generalizations are both rash and general...

 

[Fedup]

You can say the same thing about the UK but I doubt they have Great Britain dream. If anything, they need to work on the Great part, at least that’s what my British husband has been saying lately.

 

[kcowan]

Her Solutions: page 469-470

Not in any particular order
1) Universal Health Care - Medicaid for all
2) Universal Basic Income
3) Every Baby born is given a baby bond at birth to buy a house or use for educational expense when they turn 18
4) Universal child care for all children under 5 pay based on income free at certain income limits
5) Universal Child allowance - government payment for the life as a child to offset the cost of raising a child
6) Significantly increase top income tax rate - she mentions 70-90% earlier in the article
7) All elections to be funded by government and private contributions to be banned
8) Eliminate voter ID declare election days a national holiday and allow automatic registration
9) Free college tuition at all public institutions
10) Eliminate social security tax gap
11) Ban companies the right to purchase their own stock
12) Create Federal Jobs guarantee to all Americans over 18 with a liveable wage and free benefits
13) Allow every American from age 22-33 the right to research a dissertation at the University of Michigan to study the ongoing benefits of the other 12 solutions - Ok I made this one up

Thanks. This saved me reading. It seems that such a list of demands could never have been the result of such a limited study. It sounds like a "Bernie Sanders" manifesto.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

You can say the same thing about the UK but I doubt they have Great Britain dream. If anything, they need to work on the Great part, at least that’s what my British husband has been saying lately.

I am British, (and Canadian, and US Citizens) born in the UK. Honestly, every year the UK looks way better. We may seriously consider moving back to my home in the next few years, Canada is DW birth home but it is too cold up there in the winter. We do not want to manage 2 homes. Our only issue is the weather. I am allergic to the cold and the snow... .

We are not really affected by anything in the USA other than healthcare. But I am at the point where I do not want to even worry have to about it anymore. Every year is a chore and generates more stress than any ailment I/we may have.

This looks really nice and I know the area, about 25% - 30% more than we would want to pay, but nice anyway....

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-66922183.html

 

[Fedup]

I am British, (and Canadian, and US Citizens) born in the UK. Honestly, every year the UK looks way better. We may seriously consider moving back to my home in the next few years, Canada is DW birth home but it is too cold up there in the winter. We do not want to manage 2 homes. Our only issue is the weather. I am allergic to the cold and the snow... .

We are not really affected by anything in the USA other than healthcare. But I am at the point where I do not want to even worry have to about it anymore. Every year is a chore and generates more stress than any ailment I/we may have.

This looks really nice and I know the area....

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-66922183.html

But you didn’t earn the bulk of your money there nor in Canada. You earned it here in USA.

All of my husband’s friends and relatives offsprings have not done as well as of now, they are all in late 30s or early 40s, despite have massively attained more education then their parents and grandparents. They all seem to struggle with money one way or the other. Even if health care is free, it’s not a life I want my kids to aspire to.

My husband doesn’t like the cold either, we haven’t visited UK in the fall nor Winter either. Not lately at least, but we did early in our marriage.

Btw, that house in your link looks nice, my BIL moved to nearby area after selling his London home. It seems warmer there.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

But you didn’t earn the bulk of your money there nor in Canada. You earned it here in USA.
All of my husband’s friends and relatives offsprings have not done as well as of now, they are all in late 30s or early 40s, despite have massively more education then their parents and grandparents. They all seem to struggle with money one way or the other. Even if health care is free.

My comments were purely from a retirement perspective. I still think it is/will most likely be less stressful than the USA in the long run. I know a lot of Brits & Canadians, that are seriously contemplating moving home and a few more adventurous types are considering overseas.

 

[kcowan]

It turns out Wikipedia has a good entry right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream.

North of us, do people talk about the "Canadian Dream"? It may not be called as such, but let me tell you that something like that is still alive from what I saw...

If you want reinforcement of your notion, look no further than CNN:

The Canadian Dream?