College tuition: How much is too much?

[ocean view]

DS was fortunate to have been accepted by 7 universities. Now he has less than 2 weeks left to make a decision. All of the schools at the top of his list are out of state, and his #1 choice (Univ. of Washington) is very competitive for admittance so they only give academic scholarships if you walk on water (we do not qualify for need based scholarship). Several of the other out-of-state schools have offered meager ($10k/yr) to very generous ($27k/yr) scholarships. He wants to study social psychology (research type work), and will need a Masters at a minimum and possibly a Phd.

For the undergrad degree, is $37K/yr for tuition ($53k/yr tuition+living) too much to spend on college? I run every spending decision through a cost vs value decision in my head and this one is really hard for me to swallow. DS is feeling this as well, which is why he hasn't committed yet. We've had many discussions about possibly needing student loans, or doing his graduate work part-time while he works. Are we paying for the name recognition? For comparison, the other schools range between $23K-44K/year for tuition+living expenses, after scholarships.

We have about $155K in 529s and the additional cost wouldn't be a major hardship, my question is more about the future value of his education. How do you know if you are over buying? Does anyone have real world experience on what a research psychologist can earn? What I find online is about $110K on the high end and, in my opinion, it would seem that this school would be too much. But I really don't know. I don't want my kid to the one who spent $300K on college for career that pays $65K/yr.

btw, WA makes gaining residency extremely difficult in order to be eligible for in-state tuition, so that is off the table for us. The school does, however, offer academic scholarships for sophomores on up, so (fingers-crossed) he could get some of those, but I don't want to bank on that.

If he chooses Univ of WA, I guess I'll be posting in the Blow That Dough thread!

 

[Bamaman]

To be accepted by so many universities points that your son is truly special. My congratulations to him and your parenting.

My cousin's son had a full scholarship in psychology in a local large state university, and he graduated a year ago from the honors college. He's now working in the florist department at Whole Foods. He's just enjoying life living in a great large city.

There are many job directions that psychology majors can go into. But to make a good living in the field often requires at least a Masters Degree with a number of state licenses that take many years to earn. I would think that any research jobs in psychology comes from being in a graduate program. But I have no idea whether the return is worth the investment.

I'm just thankful that higher education is generally less expensive in my region than in many parts of this country.

 

[HillCountry]

Assuming you are in Ca, there should be plenty in state options.

How much psychology related studies did he do so far? He may very well change his minds in college. Lowest tuition might be the way to go.

On the other hand, my daughter asked me the other day what’s the value of paying 200k more, I told her college is like traveling. You pay for the experience.

 

[Lsbcal]

I would look at what the colleges require at the undergrad level. Will the student really need the specialty value of the college at the undergrad level? I'd agree that many students change their major and rethink their goals while in college. I suspect few go in a straight line to an MS or PhD.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

This is a tough decision that I too will soon be facing. DC is a Junior in high school and has started looking at possible colleges. I am also biased in that I teach college level, and get to see my share of students wasting their own/parents/Government's money on a college education with a not so great payoff after graduation. On the other hand, since I teach computer science, there is a good payoff for many who can stick it out.

A $250K Nut (which is where you would likely end up after 4 years @ $53K known) is a large chunk of change. Having the degree from a high end university does have value, but that value is somewhat dependent on where they intend to go post college. For instance, having an Ivy league degree does carry considerable weight in terms of a Wall Street job.

I've been tempted to tell DC that there is a pot of money to be used. If they want to use it for a more expensive school (and use it all up), then so be it. If they want to use less of it because they found an place that is good enough (but less expensive), then the rest of the money is theirs to keep. But I honestly don't know whether that is the right way to go.

 

[SecondCor521]

Unfortunately you're in kind of a bind now because it's gotten to this point without having a serious talk about how to pay for college.

It sounds like in general he's choosing and you're paying. That is the same as my three kids and me. Since I'm paying, I have established limits and conditions on me spending on their college. I suggest you do the same, even though it's late in the game. "We'll pay $X per year under conditions X, Y, and Z." Where the variables are what you're willing to do. Maybe you pay $40K a year and he has to come up with scholarships or loans for the rest. Or you pay the first three years and he pays the last. Or you pay until the 529 runs out, then he's on his own. And he has to work summer jobs, or maintain a B average, or maintain academic progress, or go to community college for the first two years or whatever. As long as the dollar amounts and limits/conditions are reasonable and measurable and approximately consistent with what you've already said, I think he'll be OK.

University of Washington is a decently good school. However, a psychology degree is a psychology degree, and to my knowledge it is not very marketable at all at the bachelor's level. If he's going to graduate school anyway, then where he gets his graduate degrees will probably matter more from a career point of view. So really all you're paying for if he chooses UW is that it's his first choice school and he might be happy there. You'll have to decide if that's worth paying for. (As I write that I wonder if I've ever been truly happy as the result of paying for something. Can't think of anything that fits.)

Would you be willing to share what the other schools are? How does he feel about #2 through #7?

 

[Bamaman]

My best friend got his Masters in Finance from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania.

He and his fellow students were in awe that so many undergraduates were paying the ultra-high tuition to go to that university when they never met, saw or were ever taught by the famous professors at the undergraduate level. It was like the undergraduates were supplementing the costs of the students in graduate school.

His idea was to go to a less expensive undergraduate college/university and do well. Then if they are motivated and think the return is worth the investment, go on to graduate school in a highly rated competitive university.

 

[FlaGator]

If the kid needs a Master's or PhD to have a viable career in that field, strongly suggest he do the undergrad work in-state and spend that kind of money on the graduate work.

Personally, there is no way I'd spend 250K on a degree that left one of my kids unemployable in their field without further education.

 

[Clone]

In a recent posting on a jobs board- "The most common job for psych majors after college is a barista."


I don't want to pile on with a 'don't waste your money on a degree that isn't going to result in a great job", because college is not just about the end being a decent job. But I agree with others- get your undergrad degree somewhere affordable, and then grad school at a different school, or wherever there might be grad assistant-ships. I think it is realistic to ask what the planned end-game is, because there are a number of majors where the degree qualifies you for grad school to eventually become academia who teach students whose only career path ends with academia. Sorta like a multi-level marketing scheme.

 

[ivinsfan]

I'm with Gator here, if you are looking at the total cost of getting your son an employable degree, adding on several years of post grad gets very costly.

Grad school is expensive.... Why did he apply to 7 different schools? At least you have had a few discussions about finances before your DS picks his school. Kudos to you for making that happen.

 

[Kwirk]

I went off to college in the late '60s. My parents made no contribution yet the times were such that I could go almost wherever I wished without incurring great debt. I greatly appreciate the opportunity that I had and I wish it were available to students today.

Fortunately, I was able to offer my 2 children the same opportunity. They chose and I paid. DD has attended state schools that have been no great strain. DS attended a private high-price out-of-state engineering school. I doubt that his school was worth the price but I view it as paying forward.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I think you can't go wrong making decisions like you would in a business project. Look at factors like job demand outlook, salary potential, ROI, pay back period, etc. All those numbers are online and free on sites like - Payscale reports by major and college, College Scorecard and the Job Outlook Handbook.

I don't know anything about psychology majors but $250K could buy a house in many parts of the country. Community college plus 2 years at San Jose State at ~$8K tuition per year in computer engineering would lead to a $93K median starting salary (2016 - 2017 figures).

 

[SecondCor521]

Another thought:

My son was able to ask his university for their placement data for recent graduates. The data allowed my son to drill down by college, by department, by major, etc. and see where recent graduates went to work or grad school, what the starting salary was, and lots of other information.

Maybe UW has similar information. If it's good, they should have no problem sharing it with you. If they won't share it with you, I think you have to ask yourself why.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Even people with doctoral degrees are having trouble getting full time jobs because of all the adjuncts they are hiring. I know from personal experience don’t spend a bunch of money on psychology degree.

 

[Sunset]

OP - Take undergrad psych degree wherever it is cheapest. Child will need a PHD to work, and people will only care where the PHD was done.

You could send your child to the best Canadian University as a foreign student for a LOT less money, look up McGill, Toronto University,

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-canada
"
Canada is home to some of the world’s top universities. In fact, 27 Canadian institutions are counted among the best in the world, according to Times Higher Education’s World University Rankings 2019.
You might not have heard of all of them, but with nine universities in the top 200, Canada offers plenty of opportunities for a world-class education.
Compared with the US, Canada can also provide cheaper study options, simpler application processes and more opportunities for permanent residency. "


Honestly a psych degree is worthless these days, I know I have one. Had to go back and get a degree in a paying field.

 

[ocean view]

Thanks all for your thoughts so far. You've given DH and I some homework for tomorrow. Lots more to discuss between us.

Assuming you are in Ca, there should be plenty in state options.

How much psychology related studies did he do so far?

We are in CA and he applied to 4 in-state schools. He was accepted by 2 CSUs (San Diego and Monterey Bay), wait listed for UC Santa Cruz, denied for UC San Diego. And since he was in the top 9% of seniors in the state the UC system guarantees him a spot "somewhere" if none of his UC applications result in an offer, so technically there is a spot for him at UC Merced (otherwise known as "somewhere").

He's only taken AP Psychology in high school. It was the only psych course offered. He got an A in the class and a 5 on the AP exam and loved every minute of it.

Unfortunately you're in kind of a bind now because it's gotten to this point without having a serious talk about how to pay for college.

It sounds like in general he's choosing and you're paying. That is the same as my three kids and me. Since I'm paying, I have established limits and conditions on me spending on their college. I suggest you do the same, even though it's late in the game. "We'll pay $X per year under conditions X, Y, and Z." Where the variables are what you're willing to do. Maybe you pay $40K a year and he has to come up with scholarships or loans for the rest. Or you pay the first three years and he pays the last. Or you pay until the 529 runs out, then he's on his own. And he has to work summer jobs, or maintain a B average, or maintain academic progress, or go to community college for the first two years or whatever. As long as the dollar amounts and limits/conditions are reasonable and measurable and approximately consistent with what you've already said, I think he'll be OK.

Would you be willing to share what the other schools are? How does he feel about #2 through #7?

We have been talking about how to pay for college since he submitted his applications in November. I even put together a spreadsheet comparing each school's fees in detail, side by side. It lives on the kitchen counter. We all look at it and discuss it every day. We have talked about your suggestion - the 529 balance is what we have saved and when it is gone we will help you apply for loans; in the meantime, you might need to pick up an on-campus job during the school year and work during the summer. He gets its. And he already knows that B's are the expected grades. I don't have any doubts that the majority of his grades will be B's or higher.

Schools 2, 3 & 4 are U of Oregon, U of Hawaii & CSU Monterey Bay (listed in order of cost, high to low, not his preference as they are all tied for second place. These are the schools that are still in contention. He's made pro/con lists for all of them, but none of them even come close to how he feels about UW.

Schools 5, 6 & 7 are U of Arizona, San Diego State & U of New Mexico. UNM, with the scholarship they offered and LCOL is the cheapest of all). for various reasons he has knocked these guys out of the race.

Why did he apply to 7 different schools?

He applied to 9 schools in total, as I mentioned above, the two UCs didn't give him offers. The high school counselors recommend applying to 7-9 schools, so after much culling of his list, he came down to 9. We didn't expect him to get so many offers, so I thought this part would be made easier with just fewer choices available to him. UW & UO were his "reach" schools and they both gave him offers. Who knew?

Community college is brought up regularly, but he really wants to go to proper university away from home. Once he sets him mind to something it's hard to steer him away.

He is young for his grade; he may still be 16 for a few days at the start of the fall term depending on the state date. I'm sure that has something to do with his indecision. Academically, he is more than ready. And because of his academic ability, I worry that CC, the CSU schools and U Hawaii will not be academically challenging enough for him. That is one reason that we haven't just said NO to UW....

 

[gcgang]

In a similar boat with my daughter. We've got plenty $ in UTMA/529 to pay full price, but am debating the wisdom of it.

Anyone here go to school on an athletic scholarship? Fordham has offered her over 1/2 cost athletic scholarship (track, XC). I've heard stories of schools telling scholarship people, "you're job is to play. Just pass your classes enough to stay eligible." Hope that's not the case.

She only has small academic $ to her other top choice, Baylor. Coach tells her she can walk on, maybe earn a scholarship next year. But this way, she doesn't have to run if she doesn't want to. But it's going to cost about $20k/yr more. Academics at Baylor seem to fit her interests better. But Waco? Lol.

She understands the UTMA $ is hers, but I don't think she fully understands what that $ means. But she doesn't want to spend $ if she doesn't need to. Yay.

I will support her in whatever she chooses (and probably will end up paying a bunch of her costs myself, letting her keep the UTMA $).

 

[Texas Proud]

If the kid needs a Master's or PhD to have a viable career in that field, strongly suggest he do the undergrad work in-state and spend that kind of money on the graduate work.

Personally, there is no way I'd spend 250K on a degree that left one of my kids unemployable in their field without further education.

+1 on this... it is rare that a degree is worth the $250K vs the $100K or so for in state school... my all in cost for in state school is about $20K to $25K... but DS is in a 5 year program...


Remember, things can change... DS found a GF last summer and she moved in with him... I kept asking is she was paying her half of expenses and he kept telling me she was... found out it was not so... I do not plan on paying the living expenses of his GF...



She has applied for admission but will not get in the same university... my brother said to not be surprised if DS transfers to a different uni that is not anywhere as good... we will see.


Remember... they are adults and will need to make a decision on their own...

 

[tulak]

I know the UW well and even though I think it’s a great school, I’m not convinced it’s worth the money for out of state, especially for an undergrad. If he was considering it for a grad program, then my answer might be different (depending on the program). Or if he was direct admit to CompSci. That’d also be worth it.

I’m not that familiar with the psych major, but I know a lot of intro classes have large class sizes. Have you looked at the time schedules for the UW? This will give you an idea of how many students to expect in the classes.

So I took a quick look and last fall, there were 3 psych 101 sections each with over 400 students (440 was the highest). That’s a lot of students in a single class.

In the sciences, the lectures are handled by professors, but the actual grading and tutorial/quiz sections are handled by grad students (TAs). You might already know this, but if not, you definitely want to take this into consideration. I’m also not sure if this is true for non-science courses, so maybe it’s not an issue?

Personally, I’d save the money for grad school, unless you really believe your son will get a better education at the UW versus the alternatives.

That’s where I’m at with DD right now. She’s also a senior in HS and needs to commit in the next couple of weeks. In her case, it’ll probably be a smaller in-state private university. We visited last Monday and we both really liked it, primarily because of smaller class sizes (<30 per class) and a better sense of community. It’ll cost more than a public university, but in her case, I think she’ll get a better education than if she went to a public university, so it’s money well spent.

 

[Katsmeow]

I pretty much agree with everyone who said that for psychology don't spend a lot of money for the undergraduate degree. He will need a graduate degree to work in the field and the grad school is far more important. Even then I would be OK with a decent school that wasn't the most expensive.

T
Community college is brought up regularly, but he really wants to go to proper university away from home. Once he sets him mind to something it's hard to steer him away.

Where I live some community college actually have dorms and you can stay in one even in community college. Also, in terms of steering him away when he sets his mind to it, this is one situation where it is pretty easy. For example, you could say "We will pay for you to attend community college for 1 year and then you can transfer and we will pay for university." Or "we will pay for any in state school you can get into." I mean -- this is your money. It is up to you what you pay for. If he wants to go someplace that isn't a good value, then he is free to get loans and pay for it himself (or at least for the difference beyond what you would pay).

He is young for his grade; he may still be 16 for a few days at the start of the fall term depending on the state date. I'm sure that has something to do with his indecision. Academically, he is more than ready. And because of his academic ability, I worry that CC, the CSU schools and U Hawaii will not be academically challenging enough for him. That is one reason that we haven't just said NO to UW....

My son started college when he was 16. And actually, he had only recently turned 16 (he graduated high school at 15). Looking at it several years later, I am so, so, so glad that we insisted that he live at home and go to CC starting out. That way, it really wasn't quite so bad economically when he changed his major 5 times! Let's see. He started out as computer science, switched to English (he loved his English course), switched to Accounting (loved his Accounting elective), switched to general business (didn't love his second Accounting course), switched to psychology (just because he likes psychology), and then switched back to computer science just as he was transferring to the university. No, he did not graduate in 4 years. Yes, he did graduate. With a computer science degree.

I am not saying your son will change his major that many times. But, it really is fairly typical for people to change their major. And, that is OK. That is part of what college is for. Taking courses is often how people figure out what they are going to major in. I think it is lot easier to do this experimentation at a lower cost school.

So I would either do community college or a state school.

 

[Lewis Clark]

My son was able to ask his university for their placement data for recent graduates. The data allowed my son to drill down by college, by department, by major, etc. and see where recent graduates went to work or grad school, what the starting salary was, and lots of other information.

I have always wondered about the accuracy of statistics like these. When I earned my bachelor's degree and later an MBA, nobody from the college ever asked me about the job offers I received or what I was planning to do with my degree.

Since I was never asked, and since my friends were never asked, how could the college know how our personal situations affected the placement rates? The colleges may have been asking some graduates for this information, but they certainly weren't asking all the graduates.

 

[SecondCor521]

I have always wondered about the accuracy of statistics like these. When I earned my bachelor's degree and later an MBA, nobody from the college ever asked me about the job offers I received or what I was planning to do with my degree.

Since I was never asked, and since my friends were never asked, how could the college know how our personal situations affected the placement rates? The colleges may have been asking some graduates for this information, but they certainly weren't asking all the graduates.

In my son's case, my understanding is that all students are asked. I don't know if the response rate is very high, and obviously the responses may be skewed towards people who actually got good jobs or into good grad schools. It would be academically dishonest for the school to just make stuff up. Hmm.

 

[SecondCor521]

OP - I have two different thoughts now, based on your reply:

1. You've done the homework and given him the data and the boundaries and the requirements, so as scary as it sounds, I would leave the decision up to him. Probably every parent struggles with letting their kids shift into adults - I know I do. It's scary, they may not make good decisions, etc. But it's not good for anyone if we don't.

2. But you said your son is 16. That is a big deal. First, he's not an adult yet. Second, he's probably a gifted program kid who has been advanced a few grades due to being capable of the academics. But he's probably not emotionally mature enough to make this kind of decision and go off to college.

My oldest is a son, and he finally was mature enough for college at 23. He went before that, at 18 when he graduated from high school. Had a full ride scholarship, but ended up on academic probation after one semester, lost the scholarship after the first year, and dropped out after three semesters, very unhappy. He came home, worked for a few years, started paying rent, and decided to go back after a while. He's now getting straight A's and is pretty happy.

I will add that with the 24 year old, his academic trouble at his first school caused some extra work at his second school. Because of his bad grades, he had to start as a non-degree-seeking student then petition to become a regular student after a semester or two.

My middle son is 19 and has an acceptance letter from a fine university. But he's struggling with graduating from high school, as he may not pass his final semester in one class. I sure as heck want him to, and I could take actions to make him, but it needs to be his decision - his failure or his success. (I am supporting him and guiding him, but I'm not standing behind him at his desk telling him to do his homework. I won't do that when he's at college, so I have to stop before then.)

The 24 year old said to me recently that I had done too much to help him succeed and that he learned a heck of a lot more from his failures than from his successes.

Both sons (and my daughter) were gifted program kids. We advanced some of their classes at various times but decided to have them graduate HS at the normal age. My sons are both clearly less mature than my daughter for their ages. This seems to be common.

It may be sort of a left turn, but I'd suggest deferring his admission at his top few choices and then go work a year or two. If you send him now things might not turn out very well, and he may not finish the degree any sooner.

 

[flintnational]

I would fund an in-state public school for the first two years. Your son will be 2 years older, will have experience in college and you both will be in a better position to decide if the high priced education is worthwhile. I cannot think of a single reason to pay for an expensive school for the first two years. (Personally, I would spend the two years encouraging a change in majors.)

My sister has a Phd and does research at the university level. She had a full merit scholarship for her undergrad. Like many of us, she tired of college after four years and entered the job market. It was only after a few years of research based work that she decided she enjoyed the field and went back to get her masters and Phd. She could have just as easily decided she did not like the field.

My DW and I both changed majors in college. I ended up majoring in a field I had never heard of when I was 18. It ended up being a very good career path.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

OP - Take undergrad psych degree wherever it is cheapest. Child will need a PHD to work, and people will only care where the PHD was done.

You could send your child to the best Canadian University as a foreign student for a LOT less money, look up McGill, Toronto University,

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-canada
"
Canada is home to some of the world’s top universities. In fact, 27 Canadian institutions are counted among the best in the world, according to Times Higher Education’s World University Rankings 2019.
You might not have heard of all of them, but with nine universities in the top 200, Canada offers plenty of opportunities for a world-class education.
Compared with the US, Canada can also provide cheaper study options, simpler application processes and more opportunities for permanent residency. "


Honestly a psych degree is worthless these days, I know I have one. Had to go back and get a degree in a paying field.

Thanks for posting this! I will have to add this to the list of things for DC to investigate. Both Montreal and Toronto are but a train ride away, and the $1 CAD to $0.75 US exchange rate makes a big difference.