Some truth to people who think we can be 100% renewable

[NW-Bound]

Using ground thermal can certainly work. I wonder how expensive it is, and if all the buried tubing will last long enough to payback. In more congested city homes, the average lot is probably not large enough for such a system, though I have not looked into it out of curiosity.

 

[HFWR]

The technology is one thing, whether something is economical is a much harder thing to achieve..

Indeed, some of the problems can be solved by brute force. Others require currently unforeseeable improvements in tech, and/or lifestyle changes that will be stubbornly resisted...

 

[street]

Using ground thermal can certainly work. I wonder how expensive it is, and if all the buried tubing will last long enough to payback. In more congested city homes, the average lot is probably not large enough for such a system, though I have not looked into it out of curiosity.

Very expensive to install but very efficient system. The gov. had large breaks if you installed one and the payback wasn't all that many years. I'm not sure but I beleive the tax breaks are still in place. I know many homes that have them and cost is unbelievable low. For us it wouldn't pay to get into that kind of system at our age. If I was building and 20 years old it would be a great thing to invest in.

 

[JoeWras]

Very expensive to install but very efficient system. The gov. had large breaks if you installed one and the payback wasn't all that many years. I'm not sure but I beleive the tax breaks are still in place. I know many homes that have them and cost is unbelievable low. For us it wouldn't pay to get into that kind of system at our age. If I was building and 20 years old it would be a great thing to invest in.

And expensive to repair. My boss had a system and ended up going back to a conventional refrigerant based heat pump.

Problem was there were not a lot of people who did servicing, so they could soak you. Parts were expensive. The last straw, however, was when they determined there was a leak in the coil that was dropped into the 200 ft bore hole.

I suspect it also has a lot to do with your type of soil. I don't think our soil is very conducive to the process. The shifting rocks wreak havoc on anything buried underground.

 

[ERD50]

The US produces roughly 4T kWh of electricity annually, and uses the equivalent of 4.7 T kWh of gasoline annually. Thus, electricity production will have to more than double to eliminate gasoline as a motor fuel.

I’m sure someone will check my handiwork...

Your calcs or off somewhat, but the basic premise is valid.

For the kWh equivalent in gasoline, the ICE has to convert that into motion, and ICE are somewhere around 25%-45% efficient in doing that (diesels on the high end, and some newer gasoline designs near that), but with idling and non-peak periods the 25% number is probably closer on average.

While an EV is going to be somewhere closer to 80% efficient in turning the kWh at the power plant to motion (transmission losses, charging losses, conversion losses from battery to motion). So maybe roughly one unit of electricity could replace 3 units of gasoline/diesel.

But heating with fossil fuel is in the 90% range with modern furnace or water heater, so closer to 1:1 there.

But it is interesting that most of these 100% renewable goals are talking about electricity production. What difference does it make if a unit of fossil fuel is burnt to produce electricity, or burnt to produce motion? If the goal is burning less fossil fuel, it should be looked at from all angles. But more EVs will require even more electricity production, making it even harder to reach 100% renewable.

-ERD50

 

[Chuckanut]

Apparently Seattle is considering banning new natural gas hookups as a way to fight global warming. Presumably only electricity will be used to in new buildings. Here's one man's view:

 

[NW-Bound]

Berkeley was the first city to ban natural gas for new homes and small apartments in July 2019. Eventually, they will include commercial buildings and larger apartments.

At that point, many cities said they would follow suit. Now Seattle did it too.

I like electricity. The only gas I have in my homes is in the 5-gal portable BBQ tanks. But I wonder if they consider where electricity comes from. Why, it comes from the outlets in the wall, of course.

They'd better find more sources of electricity, and run transmission lines there quickly. The devastating Camp Fire in Nov 2018 was caused by transmission lines setting fire to the dried grass underneath. It killed 85 people, and caused damages worth $16.5 billion.

And they already plan on using more electricity for homes as well as for EVs. I have not heard of plans to upgrade the grid, but perhaps they are already doing that quietly. But how is the new power demand met? By importing from neighbor states, who could be burning coal in their behalf?

 

[eroscott]

Berkeley was the first city to ban natural gas for new homes and small apartments in July 2019. Eventually, they will include commercial buildings and larger apartments.

At that point, many cities said they would follow suit. Now Seattle did it too.

I like electricity. The only gas I have in my homes is in the 5-gal portable BBQ tanks. But I wonder if they consider where electricity comes from. Why, it comes from the outlets in the wall, of course.

They'd better find more sources of electricity, and run transmission lines there quickly. The devastating Camp Fire in Nov 2018 was caused by transmission lines setting fire to the dried grass underneath. It killed 85 people, and caused damages worth $16.5 billion.

And they already plan on using more electricity for homes as well as for EVs. I have not heard of plans to upgrade the grid, but perhaps they are already doing that quietly. But how is the new power demand met? By importing from neighbor states, who could be burning coal in their behalf?

This graphic would imply they don't import:
https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=WA#tabs-1

 

[JoeWras]

Washington is in a unique position for hydro production. I actually used to own stock in a hydro company out there (Puget Power, which has since gone private).

But it wasn't all roses. They were getting push back for other environmental issues that hydro causes.

 

[GreenEggs]

Adequate batteries seem to be the limiting component for storing solar energy. Aren't there other ways to store energy? Things like springs, flywheels, compressed air, counterweights, heat, etc. all come to mind. As the cost of solar energy production reaches a certain level the efficiency and/or cost of storing it will become less important, right?
I'm sure the engineers & bean counters have these equations figured out. It just seems strange that we only hear about batteries. I wonder what Leonardo da Vinci would have come up with?

 

[NW-Bound]

Adequate batteries seem to be the limiting component for storing solar energy. Aren't there other ways to store energy? Things like springs, flywheels, compressed air, counterweights, heat, etc. all come to mind. As the cost of solar energy production reaches a certain level the efficiency and/or cost of storing it will become less important, right?
I'm sure the engineers & bean counters have these equations figured out. It just seems strange that we only hear about batteries. I wonder what Leonardo da Vinci would have come up with?

Earlier in the thread, we talked about other forms of energy storage. We don't have anything that provides enough storage for an entire country, or a large part of it, to sustain over a few days of low solar and low wind.

If we want to use pumped hydro power, we need something the size of the Great Lakes, as discussed earlier.

Conceptually, everything sounds simple. But when the numbers are worked, then it is discovered that while there is nothing wrong with the principle, the problem is the magnitude.

For example, if you ask people how long they think it takes to charge an EV from a regular wall outlet, they would way underestimate the time. And that's because they underestimate the energy it takes to propel a car.

And some people think that putting a solar roof on an EV would allow it to recharge while parked in the sun. Yes, but they would not imagine that it would take a couple of months to recharge an empty battery that way.

 

[GreenEggs]

AI will solve it for us.

We'd better get there before the Chinese do. Hopefully business believes in science more than the Pres does.

Whoever figures it out deserves "Free Beer For Life!". I'd be happy to chip in a few cases.

 

[mpeirce]

They'd better find more sources of electricity, and run transmission lines there quickly.

What are you talking about?

More electricity? Au contraire mon amie.

The goal, at least to the greens I've talked to, is to reduce usage significantly.

I asked about maintaining our current standard of living and was told that it's too extravagant. The rest of the world uses less energy, we should too.

 

[NW-Bound]

Americans do use way too much energy. Global warming or not, when we run out it's going to be hell. Of course people do not care that much because there's enough to last a while, and they let future generations figure it out.

If we were serious about cutting back energy usage, we would live in smaller homes. We would spend more to built homes that are better insulated. And instead of driving cars with "stupendous acceleration mode", we would mandate the following EVs.

By the way, I am a man, "et je suis votre ami, pas amie".

 

[Bir48die]

I guess that’s what happens when we conquer new land with plenty of space. If we lived in Europe we’d have attached homes and small refers, no place to park, etc. Just as those America who moved to cities to be closer to food/entertainment now want to move out. Ebbs and flows.

Technology has moved faster than anyone thought. There is much emphasis in the renewable energy sector. We’re going to get there but it will take patience and focus. At this point we’re nowhere near.

I think most Americans have made changes to their habits and you cannot turn on a dime. I know I’m very stingy in my energy use. However I’m not going to pay for or invest in technology that costs me significantly more than I spend now.

 

[CyclingInvestor]

If we want to use pumped hydro power, we need something the size of the Great Lakes, as discussed earlier.

Just as a data point, BEP does break out the energy storage capacity of their 219 dams. They average just under 1000 hours of full production, 7487 GWh currently.

 

[NW-Bound]

Thanks for the info. I did not know what BEP stands for, and just looked it up.

Not being a worker in the electric power field, the number of "2523 GWh" of storage in the US does not mean much to me. It's a big number, but I need to put it in context.

So, I looked up my past post #128, where I shared what I found regarding the electric consumption of Los Angeles County. Here it is again.

Take for example Los Angeles County. In 2017, it used 67,569 GWh.

The above 2523 GWh of hydro storage is good to feed LA County for 14 days. It's a big county, but still just one county.

 

[NW-Bound]

I just saw an article about an experimental Prius car with its roof, front hood, and rear lid covered with solar cells of the highest efficiency money can buy. Needless to say, the car looks quite ugly when covered with solar cells.

They claim the solar cells generate enough juice for you to drive 4 days a week, 50 km each day. That means 29km of charge per day, or 18 miles/day.

 

[Popeye]

What are you talking about?

More electricity? Au contraire mon amie.

The goal, at least to the greens I've talked to, is to reduce usage significantly.

I asked about maintaining our current standard of living and was told that it's too extravagant. The rest of the world uses less energy, we should too.

That brings to mind my nightmare scenario. In it the zealots gain power and shut down offending power plants so fast that they destabilize our grid. Then they will tell us we use too much as they jet off to their expansive walled compounds with armed guards and backup generators. of course government will come to the rescue to tell us how much we can use and when we can use it. LOL

 

[38Chevy454]

That brings to mind my nightmare scenario. In it the zealots gain power and shut down offending power plants so fast that they destabilize our grid. Then they will tell us we use too much as they jet off to their expansive walled compounds with armed guards and backup generators. of course government will come to the rescue to tell us how much we can use and when we can use it. LOL

...and you have identified the real reason that many push so much for "green energy". It is power and control over others. OK, getting too close to the Porky point, so I'll step away.

 

[MichaelB]

This discussion has been relatively politics free so far. It would be a shame if it were to drift from the technical thread topic into political agendas.

 

[meierlde]

Adequate batteries seem to be the limiting component for storing solar energy. Aren't there other ways to store energy? Things like springs, flywheels, compressed air, counterweights, heat, etc. all come to mind. As the cost of solar energy production reaches a certain level the efficiency and/or cost of storing it will become less important, right?
I'm sure the engineers & bean counters have these equations figured out. It just seems strange that we only hear about batteries. I wonder what Leonardo da Vinci would have come up with?

actually the way to get storage wiil come when electric car batteries can no longer deliver power at the rates demanded for a car, you put them at home as batteries. for example peak electric demand occurs at sunset, so you charge the batteries earlier in the day with solar. Thermal storage for hvac could work, and a doable idea in the summer is to heat a pool if you have one with the heat from cooling the house.

BTW the newest heat pumps can work even in the Yukon.

 

[ERD50]

I just saw an article about an experimental Prius car with its roof, front hood, and rear lid covered with solar cells of the highest efficiency money can buy. Needless to say, the car looks quite ugly when covered with solar cells.

They claim the solar cells generate enough juice for you to drive 4 days a week, 50 km each day. That means 29km of charge per day, or 18 miles/day.
...

And I imagine that means you have a sunny place to park it? How many times is our only option for parking in the shade, or inside a parking garage?

Unfortunately, I think doings things like this is a disservice. Too may people will look at that, and think "Well, computers advanced so much, pretty soon, all our cars can be powered with a few solar cells on top. Problem solved!".

But in reality, those solar cells would be doing so much more good if they were part of a solar 'farm', and just charge your EV with a cord. The panels on a 'farm' (flat commercial rooftop?) are going to be optimally placed and angled. You can't do that with a car. And the car loses some efficiency having to carry around the extra weight of those panels. And if panels are good for 30 years, most cars are not, so they panels will need be re-used somehow. And probably more cars than rooftops are totaled over a 30 year span.

All in all, it's a negative.

-ERD50

 

[ncbill]

Earlier in the thread, we talked about other forms of energy storage. We don't have anything that provides enough storage for an entire country, or a large part of it, to sustain over a few days of low solar and low wind.

If we want to use pumped hydro power, we need something the size of the Great Lakes, as discussed earlier.

Conceptually, everything sounds simple. But when the numbers are worked, then it is discovered that while there is nothing wrong with the principle, the problem is the magnitude.

For example, if you ask people how long they think it takes to charge an EV from a regular wall outlet, they would way underestimate the time. And that's because they underestimate the energy it takes to propel a car.

And some people think that putting a solar roof on an EV would allow it to recharge while parked in the sun. Yes, but they would not imagine that it would take a couple of months to recharge an empty battery that way.

Toyota has a Prius Prime prototype that recharges from super-efficient solar cells that cover all possible surfaces at the rate of nearly 30 miles/day.

Problem is, IIRC, those super-efficient solar cells are so expensive they're currently only used in space...

https://www.inverse.com/article/594...l-love-in-apple-s-free-iphone-software-update

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...prius-prime-with-solar-panels-to-test-mileage

 

[CardsFan]

Toyota has a Prius Prime prototype that recharges from super-efficient solar cells that cover all possible surfaces at the rate of nearly 30 miles/day.

So, the car can recharge at a rate of about one gallon of gas a day, IF I leave it outside (and not in my more secure garage), in the sun, during a 95 degree day, making the interior temperature about 120 degrees. No Thanks.