Coding bootcamps instead of college

[RunningBum]

True enough. After tax 22% CAGR to age 25, then "only" 10% CAGR after tax to age 35. Probably he could find work as a magician.

Funded by an Uber driver.

 

[Freedom56]

If your kids want a career in "Software engineering" not "IT", I would not only send them to university, but encourage them to get into the best ones. Encourage them to also consider electrical engineering with their computer science degree. IT jobs are where you will find people without degrees or degrees in arts. Not to mention the salaries are much lower and in many cases horrible.

I got my BS and MS in Computer Science with a minor in electrical engineering from one of the top ranked universities. My university days were some of my best years. I got away from home, met lots of people, had fun, and learned a lot. I met a lot of creative people. It was tough. Only 15% of the first year class actually graduated.

If you are concerned about earning income, I got my first real job (summer job) after the first year of University and stayed on part-time during the school year. The recruiters came to our campus to look for CS students and they still do. I stayed on with my employer after graduation (they made me an offer I could not refuse) and they paid for my graduate studies. I was earning more than many of my professors when I finished my undergraduate degree.

I worked for three companies in the 35 year career (plus a lot of sideline work) after completing my undergraduate degree and all had a policy regarding advancement to management. You had to have a degree from a recognized university to advance. This was a corporate policy. Our last employer wouldn't even interview people with out degrees for permanent positions or degrees from online universities. I met a lot of talented coders that dropped out of university, but most of them came to regret it later in life when they saw less qualified people with degrees advancing. A good coder with special skills can earn upwards of $500+ per hour on a contract basis. I know a few without degrees that are doing that. But they are rare and those opportunities are limited in time and scope.

 

[marko]

True enough. After tax 22% CAGR to age 25, then "only" 10% CAGR after tax to age 35. Probably he could find work as a magician.

OP stated the $800k number from saving tuition and then working/living at home and banking income til 25.
Doubling $800 k over ten years is not out of thd question

 

[Aerides]

My BS in computer science really hasn't been useful in my career as a coder.

It might be different in your MC or 10 years from now, but in my experience (and I hired plenty of devs and engineers over the years), a degree was almost always mandatory for a resume to make it past basic filters by recruiting. Not my rule, my bosses and up.

No rookie engineer would get an interview without a BCS or equivalent. Internships were also vetted from the "right" schools, and entry level tech roles were ripe for interns to pick.
Maybe a few years from now the recruiting will shift to those camps, but right now it sounds like a great thing to do in addition to college, vs. instead of. Or an also-ran option for the kids who otherwise would not make it to a 4-year school.

 

[Big_Hitter]

What do you think of putting kids in high school in a coding bootcamp and letting them start their careers as a programmer by 17 instead of sending them to a 4 year college?

they can do this already

 

[OldShooter]

OP stated the $800k number from saving tuition and then working/living at home and banking income til 25.
Doubling $800 k over ten years is not out of thd question

Sorry. Missed that. The scenario still looks unrealistic to me tho.

 

[Lakewood90712]

I found a pad of blank FOTRAN coding sheets in the garage last mo. , so things are a little bit different these days

I guess coding accelerated schools could be a better path to $ but at that age few really know what they want to do for a career.

 

[HornedToad10]

OP stated the $800k number from saving tuition and then working/living at home and banking income til 25.
Doubling $800 k over ten years is not out of thd question

It really depends whether OP wants his kids to have a large amount in the bank, find a decent but not great job for 10-15 years and either retire early on modest income or do something that doesn't make as much money. Or if he wants his kids to be able to get the best job they can and potentially have a longer and more advanced career but not have the initial influx of investment dollars available due to college tuition. But if the interest is not to go to college, why force a coding bootcamp instead of trying to start a business, joining the peace corps, working in a non-profit, etc.

My understanding is that coding bootcamps are also primarily front end skills and you don't learn very much related to back-end, cloud, Machine Learning/Artificial Intelligence or other extremely hot fields right now that the kids might enjoy/be good at.

 

[joeea]

What do you think of putting kids in high school in a coding bootcamp and letting them start their careers as a programmer by 17 instead of sending them to a 4 year college?

Not much.

Perhaps it's different this year or in your locale. But in my 40+ years of work I always required a college degree for all hires and never had any difficulties finding qualified graduates. I never hired a 17 year old, although I did hire a few non graduates for jobs that were not programming.

The 17 year olds would be competing with 21 year olds from all over the world having a lot more programming experience, internships, maturity, and real-world savvy.

One way to check this would be to search the job boards relevant to your locale for entry-level programming jobs. See if there are many that don't require college and how much they pay relative to those that do. Better yet, talk to a good headhunter in your area.

Save the college fee & instead open a vanguard account on their name with 200k. Let them be home with you saving up all their income and continue to invest it in the account from age 17 to 25 to be FI at 25 with ~800K in their account.

If the account balance is the real attraction, perhaps the kids could skip the coding bootcamp and do some other kind of work starting at 17.

Or perhaps they could go to a less expensive college and you could invest fewer dollars on their behalf.

 

[GrayHare]

"I'm 17 and have a $200k portfolio. No need for me to push through the inevitable challenges ahead!"

I learned as much from my college classmates outside the classroom as I did from professors in the classroom, and it was broader knowledge about the world, people, life, love, etc.

 

[Retch The Grate]

I think a huge element that is being missed is that college isn't just about job training, it's about learning to think and having a breadth of knowledge that enables you to understand and synthesize new and different things. A coding bootcamp and then full time into a coding job doesn't seem like it yields the life of the mind that one might want to foster...

 

[joeea]

I think a huge element that is being missed is that college isn't just about job training, it's about learning to think and having a breadth of knowledge that enables you to understand and synthesize new and different things. A coding bootcamp and then full time into a coding job doesn't seem like it yields the life of the mind that one might want to foster...

Well said!

I always told my sons from a young age that they should go to college no matter what career they chose. At around five, my son declared he wanted to drive a garbage truck. I told him he could - after he graduated from college.

The deal was always that they could get into the best college they wished and we would pay for it. It worked out well. They are both extremely successful in their chose careers.

What I always had in mind is pretty much exactly what you wrote. Thanks for phrasing it well.

In addition to all of that, graduating from college gives you more options, where going to coding bootcamp lmits your options. At a young age I always advise people to keep as many options open as possible. I know lots of folks who graduated with a degree in one field who are successfully employed in another field.

 

[ncbill]

Or bribe the kid to go enlist so they can have the money & the GI Bill to pay for undergrad waiting for them afterwards.

 

[ransil]

Or bribe the kid to go enlist so they can have the money & the GI Bill to pay for undergrad waiting for them afterwards.

X2 gets the screw off years out of they way too and pays while screwing off.
I did not do the GI bill, fail on my part, but I think wife and I did ok for ourselves.

 

[ivinsfan]

I assume this is a rhetorical question and not about your own kids?

Nothing you have said in even one of your previous posts indicates you have a desire to save 2OOk for any of your kids, so the question is moot.



You plan to put them in a 700 dollar a month apartment and hope they get massive aid for college or borrow money...

 

[sengsational]

If the kid has a knack for coding (ie will be the top of his class at the coding bootcamp), then I'd consider it. But only with the intent of getting a Megacorp job and pursuing a 4 year degree on their dime. Once you have the degree, you're indistinguishable (or maybe considered 'better') than someone who was a full-time student.

 

[jollystomper]

If the kid has a knack for coding (ie will be the top of his class at the coding bootcamp), then I'd consider it. But only with the intent of getting a Megacorp job and pursuing a 4 year degree on their dime. Once you have the degree, you're indistinguishable (or maybe considered 'better') than someone who was a full-time student.

+1


My college degree is in Computer Science and Math. I did a fair amount of coding, primarily FORTRAN and C. However, the skills I learned in other courses I took are what contributed to my IT career advancing. The ability to listen to others, the ability to write so that others who are not in IT can understand you, the ability to stand up in front of people, give coherent presentations/talks, and defend your point of view in a calm, professional manner, the ability to understand the business impact of your work, the ability to read critically and ask questions - all of these things are what made a difference in going beyond a "coder".



The bootcamp only addresses one aspect, the college degree helps in all of the others.

 

[Red Badger]

Like a few others have suggested, at least consider a two year community college or equivalent. Most can easily transfer to a four year school, while saving a boatload of money.

With just a bootcamp stamp, many, many doors will be closed to them. I'm not an IT person, but I managed IT projects for over 20 years. For the quality and performance stuff (solution design, performance, scoping etc), we hired local, on-site (degreed) folks. For coding, debugging, and initial testing, we sent that off shore for multiple reasons. Cost was one factor, but often, we could hand off a task at the end of a day and have something back in the morning that was developed overnight. That combination of lower cost and an accelerated time line most always resulted in faster ROI. With rare exception, my projects were based on payback.

Also, bear in mind that while the US economy is on fire at the moment, we'll have recessions ahead. That is often where the wheat is sorted from the chaff. BTW, I'm no fan of what our universities put out, nor what they cost. But, I had the unpleasant experience of getting downsized in my 30's w/o a degree. Even though I had marketable skills, there was a recession (early 90's), and I ended up taking min wage jobs to eat. I got my degree at night while working 50+ hour weeks. I don't wish that on anyone

FWIW, I admire that you are thinking outside of the proverbial box. But do think through with full due diligence. Maybe even the thought of a bootcamp to see if there is a desire to go down said career path. If so, maybe further education is warranted. If not so much, not a lot lost in the process.

 

[Bestwifeever]

I assume this is a rhetorical question and not about your own kids?

Nothing you have said in even one of your previous posts indicates you have a desire to save 2OOk for any of your kids, so the question is moot.



You plan to put them in a 700 dollar a month apartment and hope they get massive aid for college or borrow money...

Now, let’s think about this. The kids are 9 and 5 now, apparently. Our schools have coding clubs in the middle school. After they learn the basics in coding camp, OP’s stay-at-home wife, who he doesn’t want to work, can then home-school them, with plenty of coding fun throughout the day on paying projects. The kids can put that money aside for the future. (And once they get their drivers licenses, they can start driving for Uber but I don’t want to get off topic here). Win win!

 

[ivinsfan]

Now, let’s think about this. The kids are 9 and 5 now, apparently. Our schools have coding clubs in the middle school. After they learn the basics in coding camp, OP’s stay-at-home wife, who he doesn’t want to work, can then home-school them, with plenty of coding fun throughout the day on paying projects. The kids can put that money aside for the future. (And once they get their drivers licenses, they can start driving for Uber but I don’t want to get off topic here). Win win!

Or the OP just likes throwing things out there to see who will take the bait..well the two of us are here

 

[kgtest]

If the kid has a knack for coding (ie will be the top of his class at the coding bootcamp), then I'd consider it. But only with the intent of getting a Megacorp job and pursuing a 4 year degree on their dime. Once you have the degree, you're indistinguishable (or maybe considered 'better') than someone who was a full-time student.

Good point. Since I kept my options open and never completed college, a second chance came along when MegaCorp offered to pay for my undergrad. I declined. Even my boss "got it". I have kids I'm in my 30s, I'm well on my way to being financially independent. I learned all of this with only two semesters of college, and some of those classes I failed.

Now if MegaCorp offered to pay for my private pilot, sure. That doesn't really benefit megacorp, but hey they are paying for someone's education which is what they really want to do apparently.

I need to remind folks, a degree is no guarantee for success. It's the experiences people takeaway from that time that will likely lead into a successful or not successful career.

I never had money for college, that's what dad told me. Plus also told me I didn't have the grades. Looking back, my mom and dad chose to build there own nest egg instead of struggling with their kids college expenses.

It's interesting to look at really. Dad has no degree, but 2 of his 3 kids did get master's degrees, I am the child without the degree. I earn more than both my siblings (who are 4 and 8yrs older) and have more saved than they do, I'm not saying I'm happier, and to me life is about the pursuit of happiness, not money...but I'm certainly pretty happy.

I look at FIL, he is a retired Doc. both Dad and FIL are multi-millionaires. They are both happy.

My point is, there is no right way to make it in this world. But you need to align your kids goals and ambitions with reality and if you choose to help best position them for that. If that means covering college and you can afford to, righteous! If it means sending the boy off to take an oath, then nurture him for that.

Boot camps are not even the easy-in to IT, there is no guarantee they will get "hired" in either college or bootcamp scenario. One just costs a lot less for a reason.

I've worked alongside MIT, Harvard and UC Berkley grads. Honestly that Harvard grad was a waste of space, but he wasn't happy doing the work that I was happy doing. (he wasn't as technical and could not solution something for the life of him).

Sometimes the smartest guy in the room is the one who can actually turn the wrench, not the one who can tell you how to turn it. I am comfortable with that. When **** hits the fan, under pressure, you really need to be able to be the smartest guy in the room, or you will lose clout and turn into a cog.

Oh btw, college and high school did teach me to capitalize, and use commas etc...but I am a lazy typer with a broken pinky right now and don't concern myself since this is an internet forum.

 

[john44]

IMO, bypassing college altogether is a bad idea. There is a lot that goes into software development that your child will not learn in a bootcamp. I worked in IT for 44 years, the last 33 years in management and executive positions. A good education teaches more than the coding skills needed for today. My degree was in accounting but I quickly became one of the top software engineers in a 200+ person IT organization. I never practiced as an accountant, but that education paid off immensely when I became a manager.

When I was with a systems integration company, we developed our own bootcamp for college grads so they could work on our projects. It was about an 8 week course consisting of all the key technologies entry level programmers would need to know. The program was a great success. One of the interesting outcomes was that some of our best students had no IT courses in college and became outstanding employees.

I taught part time at a local community college which did a great job teaching the technical basics of IT. Students who graduated with that AA degree could get an entry level job but their upward mobility was more limited than those with 4 year degrees or greater. BTW, I am not an advocate for advanced degrees, but I do think a 4 year degree in a good program provides a well rounded education.

I think you are selling a college education short. Part of college is figuring out what you want to do in life. Your child may find something else they want to pursue instead of IT.

 

[Katsmeow]

Save the college fee & instead open a vanguard account on their name with 200k. Let them be home with you saving up all their income and continue to invest it in the account from age 17 to 25 to be FI at 25 with ~800K in their account.

Good luck with that. How old are your kids? I have 3 kids. I am trying to envision my telling them that they need to living at home from age 17 to 25 and have to get a full time job but have to save all their income while living at home with mom and dad. I mean, sure, I guess there are some people who would do that. There are some people that age who have no social life and no hobbies. There are some people who would work full-time while their friends are in school and they would just save all of their money and would love living with their parents when they are supporting themselves.

Leaving aside whether I would think your idea is a good one -- you are basing it on assumptions that are simply not going to be true for most people. They are going to want to spend the money they earn. If they are very level headed they may be willing to put some of it aside for retirement and might set up an emergency fund.

They are most likely not going to want to live with mom and dad until they are 25. They are going to want more privacy and the ability to do what they want to do not what you want them to do in your house. Kids being supported by their parents often have to put up with house rules. Not many are going to want to do that if they are working full-time.

 

[NoiseBoy]

This!

You are competing with folks in foreign countries with PhDs and working for $20-30/hour. Good luck with that.

Coding is a $30/Hr or less offshore skill. My megacorp does not value coding so if you want to advance, and this has been true for many years, you have to become a project manager, go into supervisory management, or be one of the handful of technology architects in the company. You are not going to get promoted into any of those higher salary grades without a degree. Can people with a high school education communicate well enough (write well, speak in front of groups) to get ahead in the business world? My experience with high school interns is that they cannot.

 

[AJ520]

Not sure where u live and why coding hasn’t work for you. In the Bay Area, you get $100-120k easy at entry level. My sister got a computer science degree and barely passed her classes is doing limited coding at HR department. She doesn’t like to code much. However, tech companies in general has very good benefits and good pay. My husband is a coder with a master’s in computer science which he regret getting cuz it’s not that useful in the coding world. lol and he is a nerd that loves to code and making $150k in his 5th year. He has been with the same company since he got his masters but he doesn’t want to go else where cuz this job allows him to take 2 hr lunches to play sports, get home by 7pm with Bay Area traffic and get to work in the morning with flexible schedule. He gets his work done and some times just do over time at home for fun... His cousin who did resturant service work up til his early 30’s and didn’t graduate from high school ended up getting a GED and self taught coding for about a year and now working at a government job with $120k and a pension... He said he doesn’t know what he was doing for the first year or so but no one else knew at the agency either lol. So he was able to learn on the go....I think tech jobs are very flexible in this era.