The Cryptocurrency Thread

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For youtube videos, you need to weed out the nonsense and go for channels and presenters who are credible. Further, not all discussions are "fact based". For example, many of the discussions I enjoy related to Bitcoin are more moral, philosophical or economic in nature. Rightly or wrongly, in the area of new societal trends, YouTube and Twitter etc are key resources for information dissemination. The result though, is you get a wide range and variance of quality.
I have nothing against youtube. I watch a lot of youtube. But credible does not equal correct! You (any everyone else) should verify every fact on which a decision is made. The oldest scam in the book is to establish credibility/authority then lead you down a terrible path.

Skepticism should not end once credibility has been earned. For example, I consider NPR credible. But the fact that they reported a figure today that disagrees with yahoo finance, which I also consider credible, will make me verify both of those sources before making any decisions for a while.

There are new channels that have made a business of leading people blindly down a particular path with false or dubious information. Youtube is ripe for that.
 
If they said the market cap of crypto currencies including Bitcoin is 2.5T that would be correct. Actually went to 2.7T today according to.

https://coinmarketcap.com/

I thought they said bitcoin but I may have misheard. If they were talking about all cryptocurrencies combined that makes sense. I cannot find the story on their web page to verify.
 
The Bitcoin blockchain ledger is public. We know exactly how many coins already exist (so take approx 19,000,000 and multiply that by the price, say approx USD 62K per coin) and that gives you the exact market cap.

What is your source? I completely understand that the ledger is public. But that does not in any way mean your information is correct. My information from yahoo finance is that there are 18.8 million bitcoins in existance and that agrees with your statements. My source is yahoo finance. You have failed to state a source but instead seem to rely on "appeal to authority" which is worthless to me and most thinking people.
 
What is your source? I completely understand that the ledger is public. But that does not in any way mean your information is correct. My information from yahoo finance is that there are 18.8 million bitcoins in existance and that agrees with your statements. My source is yahoo finance. You have failed to state a source but instead seem to rely on "appeal to authority" which is worthless to me and most thinking people.

The great thing about the Bitcoin blockchain, it that it is the ultimate and universal source of truth. So if you don't believe someone who has established credibility or experience in the area, you can revert to an entirely objective source, being Bitcoin's publicly visible and inspectable ledger. This is one aspect Bitcoin which highly appeals to me.

It is very easy to set up a node, to validate each and every block if you wish to do that. Or there are also some publically accessible charts that present data which is very easy for the "layman" (as opposed to someone with technical knowledge) to understand. You can see data such as market cap, circulating supply, daily turnover, average holding periods, represented in easy to view charts. See for example:

https://www.blockchain.com/charts/total-bitcoins
https://www.coindesk.com/price/bitcoin/

The great thing about Bitcoin (and a huge factor in its success) is that Bitcoin itself is entirely objective. It doesn't care if you hate, are skeptic, have concerns how its used, don't understand how it functions, or have a view on whether is value will go up or down, etc. Bitcoin at its core is simply an amorphous and immutal mathematical equation which operates across a decentralized network. The mathematics, at its core, ensure a universal truth, and that is a beautiful thing to see when harnessed in a manner that provides utility.
 
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Who cares how many Bitcoins and valuation? Are large number is supposed to impress me that it is not an elaborate scam.
 
Your question basically is "what is revolutionary about Bitcoin (but I don't want to watch videos on the topic)", correct?
It's not that I don't watch videos, but I have no trust whatsoever in contributing clicks to un-vetted material, and sending value to random authors. Your many links to make points is offputting, and I'm sure it's not just me.
If so, I would say at the outset, that it will require time for anyone to understand key core aspects of Bitcoin. These include topics beyond just the underlying blockchain technology, including delving into areas such as economics (both micro and macro), psychology, philosophy, history, politics, law (just to mention a few!).

However, as to your specific question, where I started on my journey was reading Satoshi's whitepaper on peer to peer electronic cash. You can view this here:

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
Ok, that's where blockchain etc. began. You underestimate the time and research some have put into this. Ok, I'm not an early adopter or even a late one, but I can tell when unsubstantiated claims are being made. That is the crux of what most here are saying about your statements. I've read something which I feel was an even-handed coverage of block and coin (sounds like a good idea for a storefront). I am interested in many topics, and there's not enough time for each one of course. So I venture in to threads like this, but to be honest, I've learned very little in the crypto threads. Now that all discussion on the subject has been directed to one thread, I think it will take tremendous will power to address points, simply discuss, and so on.
What Satoshi and his early collaborators proposed was a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust. They started with the usual framework of coins made from digital signatures, which provides strong control of ownership, but the problem they solved was that this system was incomplete without a way to prevent so-called "double-spending" (think "money printing" in the old world of paper money). To solve this, they proposed a peer-to-peer network (using proof-of-work to record a public history of transactions) which then quickly becomes computationally impractical for an attacker to change if honest nodes control a majority of CPU power.

For me, it was really enlightening as I had already been considering similar problems. The solution that Satoshi proposed was brilliant and revolutionary. I fully understand that reading the whitepaper is not for everyone - you really need to be mathematically and engineering inclined to appreciate his paper. I fully get that. But it was out there, it was public, and Bitcoin was open for anyone in the world to participate in from day #1 in terms of mining (including of course Satoshi himself who had to mine his own coins).

So what happened after that was that we literally got to witness the immaculate conception of Bitcoin, as the first coin ever was hashed. (Imagine if you could literally see gold as a new metallic chemical element being "created", or if you were a Christian literally seeing the birth of Christ). This is what our generation literally witnessed and is part of in relation to Bitcoin.
Talk about a metaphor mashup. Is that your idea? It's humorous and disconcerting at the same time.

Creative comments don't reveal much, though. When we get into metaphysical thoughts things certainly take on an aura of shamanism.
The creation of Bitcoin was the first time, both in human history and indeed in the history of our plant, that a natively digital decentralized global currency was conceived - first used by a small group of dreamers, cypher-punks, programmers, geeks, gamers, philosophers, libertarians etc, and from then on just growing and growing and growing, defeating every hurdle raised along the way. It is not often that a movement of the people succeeds over the might of globally entrenched powers, but I believe this is happening. We all have the literally "once in lifetime" (indeed "once in a generation") opportunity to become a part of this. Especially those of us with both access to information, the internet, and with existing wealth stored in fiat currencies.

The revolutionary part (both technologically, politically, philosophically, and economically) is that no longer can any ruler dictate what we as individual citizens may collectively use among ourselves as both a store of value and medium of exchange. This is indeed also why America is becoming a global leader in this area, due to our strong belief in individual freedoms both for the US and globally (not to mention the rights enshrined in our Constitution) and why you see resistance in some communist countries such as China who take more of a collectivist/authoritarian approach to human freedoms.

No longer do we have Governments or other power structures printing "money" which they mandate we use (and of course which they control). And no longer do we need to rely on intermediaries such as banks to control (and effectively steal) our money for their "services". We now have a digitally native, globally universally consistent and accepted currency. And that is a truly revolutionary moment for us as a global civilization.
My opinion is that this is not invulnerable. Every code created has been broken. In time governments will slice this up out of necessity. The only thing I can offer is history. I realize you're thoroughly convinced this movement of the people means total conquer, but I just lean back and think of how governments will crack it and incorporate it in taxing.
As to the even more basic question people ask "just tell me what the price will be in 10 years!", I'm not going to answer that. What I will say is that at current prices, Bitcoin has around 10% the market cap of gold. So a parity of wealth stored in Bitcoin would bring BTC to around the 600K per coin level. We have a new halvening likely to occur some time in 2025, which will significantly increase mining difficulting (leading to a decreased supply of newly mined coins resulting in price appreciation assuming demand stays constant). And we have the potential for absolutely MASSIVE adoption from the masses in developing countries on the one hand, and from the world's largest financial institutions on the other. So its certainly quite feasible that we could see BTC at over 1m per coin in the next 5-8 years. By that point, the "common man" will likely be speaking about Bitcoin in terms of Sats for daily transactions (100,000,000 Sats : 1 BTC) with only the institutions and "Bitcoin OGs" still referring to value in Bitcoin. There will also be a huge societal distinction between "whole-coiners" (people who have more than a coin of wealth to their family name), "Sat-workers" who are people scrapping away stacking smaller amounts of Sats but far from having a whole coin, to "no-coiners" (newly born people who have no Sats to their name, or those who failed to adopt when Bitcoin was emerging, whether out of ignorance, lack of opportunity etc). See a short summary of these "categories" of people in the clip below on the Bitcoin Finance channel:
[Link clipped for brevity]
Hope that helps. Again, hard to summarize it all in a single post.
I knew you couldn't go one post without a tubey.
I strongly urge anyone who has an interest to do some research. There's some great content out there, and much if it is (for better or worse) on media such as YouTube. If you prefer more of a reading format, www.bitcointalk.org is a great resource.

There are also may great books on Bitcoin. One I suggest starting with is "The Bitcoin Standard" by economist and academic Dr. Saifedean Ammous.

Good luck!
I think you're not noticing that people do their research, they just might not be posting about what they've found.

I just found and read a paper of interest, and it raises many concerns in an academic way: Bitcoin, Currencies, and Fragility - Nassim Nicholas Taleb. I found this by searching for critique of Saifedean Ammous. Much to contemplate...
 
I think any new technology does need and will have evangelists to push the story.

There will be strong voices of opposition and dismissal

Somewhere down the line the technology will be useful or not. I am not that interested in hearing any discussion about if crypto is a scam or tulip bulb etc. it is just not interesting at this stage.

Current news about how the latest company or country etc is planning to use crypto might be more useful for bringing people up to date with adoption or failings etc.

What do people want from this thread?
 
Other than investing most money in stocks, investments other than that are not very popular with most members of this forum, since that is the primary way the wealth to retire early was built with. This investment philosphy is held tight by decades of studies by the noblest of men and proof is in the wealth this philosophy has created and continues to create. Crypto challenges that philosophy as it does not fit in neatly.

Cryptocurrencies, which have been discussed here since Bitcoin 2013 and mostly totally totally and enthusiastically discouraged, called a scam, say going to zero, kept members of this forum who had the actual notice of Crypto firmly away from the dangers of investing 10K in 2013 which would be worth 50 million dollars today. Just a 1K investment in 2013 would be worth 5 million.
Bitcoin and Ethereum now have a market value of 2 trillion dollars or about 10 percent of the US gross domestic product. This forum has offered invaluable notice that crypto was out there and a danger to portfolios if incorporated. It is terrific that something growing this fast is being limited to one thread because it is becoming more dangerous by the day.

If you don't want to buy crypto I reccomend you don't, computers are totally overated and not here to stay, I think even the internet is nothing more than a giant fax machine at best. Nobel prize winner Merton in 2018 with bitcoin at $3,600 made the case bitcoin would head to zero as it was banned around the world. It has no useful value.

Paul Krugman another Nobel Prize winner also said Bitcoin was worth zero at the same time and would soon crash there in 2018.

it is only actual Billionaires that are investing in the crypto space in increasing positions and compared to Nobel prize winners what have Billionaires ever shown to know? Musk,
Sam Bankman, Brian Armstrong, Chris Larsen, Cameron Winklevoss, Jed Mcaelb, but there are billionaire critics so it is all just an asset class that is expanding 10 times faster than stocks and taking over the finance world and only young people are really interested in it so do not bother.

Since then in 3 years a portfolio of 10% Bitcoin 90% Stocks would be worth more than twice as much as a portfolio of 100% stocks, showing the true value of Nobel prize winning theory and expertise in the forecasting and monitoring of a portfolio. Not a good investment at all.
 
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Nothing like a good dose of fantastic returns to draw interest.

YTD
Crypto market cap 3.4X
Bitcoin 2.1 X
Ethereum 6.1 X

Many other smaller projects have grown faster.

I am curious to know how correlated to stock gains we are.
 
Something goes up, therefore it proves it isn't based on nonsense, seems like a weak defense. It proves nothing. Making an elaborate scheme with fancy math and getting people to buy into it it and give it value only proves the gullibility of greedy crowds.

Look, I dug a giant hole in the middle of nowhere as proof of work still means the work is useless and no matter what effort was put in, it is all for nothing and still worthless.
 
I think any new technology does need and will have evangelists to push the story.

There will be strong voices of opposition and dismissal

Somewhere down the line the technology will be useful or not. I am not that interested in hearing any discussion about if crypto is a scam or tulip bulb etc. it is just not interesting at this stage.

Current news about how the latest company or country etc is planning to use crypto might be more useful for bringing people up to date with adoption or failings etc.

What do people want from this thread?

I like your ideas of what might be useful, above. I might have to dig into the “ignore” feature for some posters (is there a way to limit that to a certain thread?)

I hope the folks posting useful information continue to do so. I don’t think it’s particularly valuable to read _repeated_ challenges of crypto characteristics or ad-hominem replies.
 
Yes thanks for this post. It is nice to see everything about it in one place. Like any new technology, there are people willing to rip off the uninformed investor. So it is good to see some knowledgeable people here. What I fail to understand is why they tolerate the skepticism.

I concluded 5 years ago that we have enough. So I am not investing in things I don't understand. But I believe that blockchain is a revolutionary way to conduct transactions. Paypal and banks are against them.

My only concern is how we can avoid the mob/underworld from taking their piece of the action. I know that the pump and dump boys are already onto it! I suppose that it inevitable anyway.
 
Something goes up, therefore it proves it isn't based on nonsense, seems like a weak defense. It proves nothing.

In other news. More banks join in

https://www.reuters.com/business/co...ustry-offer-in-app-crypto-trading-2021-11-02/

SYDNEY, Nov 3 (Reuters) - Commonwealth Bank of Australia (CBA.AX) will become the country's first main-street bank to offer a platform for retail customers to trade cryptocurrencies, breaking industry ranks as it looks to match offerings from rival fintech firms.

Australia's biggest lender said it will partner with New York-based exchange Gemini Trust Company LLC to offer a "crypto exchange and custody service" through a new feature in its mobile banking app that is used by about 6.4 million customers.
 
In other news. More banks join in

https://www.reuters.com/business/co...ustry-offer-in-app-crypto-trading-2021-11-02/

SYDNEY, Nov 3 (Reuters) - Commonwealth Bank of Australia (CBA.AX) will become the country's first main-street bank to offer a platform for retail customers to trade cryptocurrencies, breaking industry ranks as it looks to match offerings from rival fintech firms.

Australia's biggest lender said it will partner with New York-based exchange Gemini Trust Company LLC to offer a "crypto exchange and custody service" through a new feature in its mobile banking app that is used by about 6.4 million customers.
Still proves nothing. Appeal to authority is not an argument. Look if you want to "invest" in crypto at least be honest about it and say yes it has no intrinsic value and is based on the greater fool theory of investing. Then I would be like fine. But I don't see honest here, I see using financial sounding words thrown around like coin, currency, etc. to give the image of "financial". Then things like Nobel prize winning to appeal to authority. No discussion of how it actually works. Prove me wrong, make me a convert, should be easy if the facts are on your side.
 
So what happens when all the bitcoins are mined?

It is currently estimated it will take until 2140 for this to happen even though 18 out of 21 million have already been mined. Yes it gets harder and harder as the years go by (mathematically)

Honestly I do not know what happens after that.
 
So what happens when all the bitcoins are mined?
All the yammering about how much electricity is being wasted will stop. Miners will probably start on another crypto currency, presuming they keep doing what they know how to do.
 
It is currently estimated it will take until 2140 for this to happen even though 18 out of 21 million have already been mined. Yes it gets harder and harder as the years go by (mathematically)

Honestly I do not know what happens after that.

All the yammering about how much electricity is being wasted will stop. Miners will probably start on another crypto currency, presuming they keep doing what they know how to do.

Thanks. I suspect it doesn't matter when all (or all they can mine) Bitcoin is extracted since that's a long way off. I wonder if anyone has calculated the amount of power that will be required to mine the remaining coins since from what I can grasp, it requires more power per unit coin as the coins get scarcer. ?
 
Thanks. I suspect it doesn't matter when all (or all they can mine) Bitcoin is extracted since that's a long way off. I wonder if anyone has calculated the amount of power that will be required to mine the remaining coins since from what I can grasp, it requires more power per unit coin as the coins get scarcer. ?

Yeah it wont matter by then but it will probably take two super novas to get the last one :) For a more sensible discussion...

https://www.investopedia.com/tech/what-happens-bitcoin-after-21-million-mined/

As Bitcoin reaches its capped supply, its economics will alter. The incentives for various members in its ecosystem, such as miners and traders, will change. For example, miners may rely less on block rewards and more on transaction fees to earn revenue and profits for their operations. The cryptocurrency's network will also transform, and its participants will be different from the retail traders that populate its current ecosystem.


However, given the cryptocurrency's relatively undeveloped ecosystem, it is difficult to predict with certainty the effect of Bitcoin reaching its capped supply.
 
Mark Cuban pointing to article claiming 4% of Americans have quit their jobs because of Crypto gains. Now I can't personally know if this is at all scientific but I do personally know 2 people one age 35 another 27 that have quit their jobs after making 1 million + in Crypto.
 
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