Can't Justify an Expensive Hobby Even If I Can Afford It
- Thread starter MercyMe
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Car-Guy
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
There are several in Texas but I've heard a lot about this one for years.
https://enchantingtexas.com/texas-state-railroad-palestine-train-ride/
W2R
Moderator Emeritus
My two cents
Personally I find that there are expensive hobbies that appeal to me, cheap hobbies that appeal to me, and hobbies in between those extremes.
I tend to gravitate towards the cheaper ones because, why not? They're cheaper.
Or sometimes, the ones in the middle that I guess we can call "moderate".
For example, I do play video games which is moderately expensive because it requires buying a new console once in a while. Not the PS5!! Maybe some day but for now, I can enjoy thousands of video games with my (much cheaper) Nintendo Switch. Overall, I suppose it would be even cheaper to ditch gaming and just read but my hobby spending is always under $1000/year, so I am not concerned.
Sounds to me like you are just DYING to get started in this expensive but affordable new hobby. Good! From what you are saying, it sounds like you can swing it. Maybe there are ways to cut back on the cost, such as buying whatever-it-is used instead of brand new. I'd look into that first so that the expense doesn't detract from the fun you get out of the hobby. Remember, the point is to have fun.
Personally I find that there are expensive hobbies that appeal to me, cheap hobbies that appeal to me, and hobbies in between those extremes.
I tend to gravitate towards the cheaper ones because, why not? They're cheaper.
Or sometimes, the ones in the middle that I guess we can call "moderate". For example, I do play video games which is moderately expensive because it requires buying a new console once in a while. Not the PS5!! Maybe some day but for now, I can enjoy thousands of video games with my (much cheaper) Nintendo Switch. Overall, I suppose it would be even cheaper to ditch gaming and just read but my hobby spending is always under $1000/year, so I am not concerned.
Sounds to me like you are just DYING to get started in this expensive but affordable new hobby. Good! From what you are saying, it sounds like you can swing it. Maybe there are ways to cut back on the cost, such as buying whatever-it-is used instead of brand new. I'd look into that first so that the expense doesn't detract from the fun you get out of the hobby. Remember, the point is to have fun.
prudent_one
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My collectible hobby had developed over the years to where new additions that fit the collection were getting up there in cost, and like OP I was getting reluctant to keep ramping up the spending.
So I scratched the itch by getting connected with a nearby dealer and working with him at a few shows a year. He gave me an opportunity a few years ago when his regular helper got sick at the last minute, he called me to see if I could help out at least enough to do setup/teardown, and offered to pay me in merch. I jumped at it and that very first experience I earned my keep when he showed me an item he was going to buy from another dealer (really just so I could see such a rare item up close) and I showed him where it had been altered. He had missed it.
I get new experiences by now being on the "inside" and hearing what goes on behind the scenes, I get to blather on and on with new collectors who seem interested in the knowledge I can share, and when I do want to add something to the collection I can negotiate a wholesale price which saves about 20%, and sometimes even trade in some excess material I have towards a purchase and get a fair price for them. If I have a question I can ask another established dealer since now they recognize me as a "dealer" and I get straight answers. I help by handling deals on stuff, doing the math on new purchase, upselling a buyer if it makes sense, and helping the occasional solo dealer unpack/repack and/or watching their table if they need a bio break or need to grab a snack. And now that I have dealer credentials I can to go other shows with those hanging around my neck and still get wholesale deals from dealers I haven't met before.
So I scratched the itch by getting connected with a nearby dealer and working with him at a few shows a year. He gave me an opportunity a few years ago when his regular helper got sick at the last minute, he called me to see if I could help out at least enough to do setup/teardown, and offered to pay me in merch. I jumped at it and that very first experience I earned my keep when he showed me an item he was going to buy from another dealer (really just so I could see such a rare item up close) and I showed him where it had been altered. He had missed it.
I get new experiences by now being on the "inside" and hearing what goes on behind the scenes, I get to blather on and on with new collectors who seem interested in the knowledge I can share, and when I do want to add something to the collection I can negotiate a wholesale price which saves about 20%, and sometimes even trade in some excess material I have towards a purchase and get a fair price for them. If I have a question I can ask another established dealer since now they recognize me as a "dealer" and I get straight answers. I help by handling deals on stuff, doing the math on new purchase, upselling a buyer if it makes sense, and helping the occasional solo dealer unpack/repack and/or watching their table if they need a bio break or need to grab a snack. And now that I have dealer credentials I can to go other shows with those hanging around my neck and still get wholesale deals from dealers I haven't met before.
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Here's the problem I've seen with "playing slots" (a lot)... Sooner or later you will hit a few jackpots. ($1200 or more). With each one of those jackpots, you will get a W2G. State tax is usually withheld immediately and federal tax can be paid then or it will be owed when you file your annual return. Then over the year you play more and more. By the end of the year, 99% of us will lose more than we won but you still paid and/or owe the taxes on the jackpots. Yes, you can deduct/offset your losses (up to your winnings) if you itemize and you keep detailed and accurate records. But few
In WA we use a player's card which automatically keeps track of Win/Loss and can produce a report at the end of the year. Almost everyone I know ends up with a loss at the end of the year. The problem for us is the standard deduction is about $24,000 and we only have about $12,000 in deductions. So essentially we have to win $12,000 in Jackpots before we can even begin to deduct our winnings. Add the fact that Jackpots boost your income and can wreck havoc and bump up your IRMMA bracket level. Because of all this we try to keep under the $1200 jackpot threshold by betting smaller and playing longer. Still though you can hit a jackpot even at 50c or $1.
Car-Guy
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
^^^^^
You seem to have a good understanding of how this works... Note, most win/loss statements will say on them "not to be used for tax purposes". And as you probably know, there's a number of reasons why that is... "Examples", the players cards don't work at all if you forget to use them in a slot machine. (I'm sure you have forgotten to use yours a few times) And when you use the card at a table game, they aren't nearly as accurate. The dealers/pit bosses often miss your buy-in amounts and they almost never capture what you walk away with. They'll capture that at the cashiers cage but most casinos they don't even ask for your card if you cashing in less than 1k or even 2k in chips. Those sort of things really throw off a win/loss statement.
And you are 100% correct about the potential of gambling impacting IRMMA, even if you lost a lot more than you won in any year... But that's another topic.
You seem to have a good understanding of how this works... Note, most win/loss statements will say on them "not to be used for tax purposes". And as you probably know, there's a number of reasons why that is... "Examples", the players cards don't work at all if you forget to use them in a slot machine. (I'm sure you have forgotten to use yours a few times) And when you use the card at a table game, they aren't nearly as accurate. The dealers/pit bosses often miss your buy-in amounts and they almost never capture what you walk away with. They'll capture that at the cashiers cage but most casinos they don't even ask for your card if you cashing in less than 1k or even 2k in chips. Those sort of things really throw off a win/loss statement.
And you are 100% correct about the potential of gambling impacting IRMMA, even if you lost a lot more than you won in any year... But that's another topic.
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Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I've finally started flying economy plus. I consider it the "sweet spot" of value for money but YMMV.
street
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
That is an interesting hobby and very enjoyable I bet. Also, not a cheap hobby but what a great way to have fun.
folivier
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Growing up on a bayou in south Louisiana and having an outboard motor since I was about 8 I really enjoy looking at vintage outboard motors. In Tallahassee, FL there is an auto museum that has quite a few vintage outboards. Lots of the older ones have beautiful polished brass parts. Fun to look at.
Sojourner
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We flew Delta, since DW has "platinum" frequent-flyer status with them and we get various perks from that. The trip was to south Asia, and at the time we were looking for our tickets (about four months ago), we were seeing premium economy for around $3k each and "Delta One" business class for around $9k. Maybe it was an outlier due to the specifics of our trip, timing, destination, etc. I hope so, since I certainly would like to book lie-flat business class again on future trips. But I really do have to say that the premium economy experience was a good one and might just be the sweet spot for us.
audreyh1
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Who knows. I have certainly seen larger differentials at times. I was only shopping for transatlantic fares, but somehow when I was ready to commit, I was able to find prices closer to 2x economy on the more direct routes we favored. This was over several years but before 2020.
I haven’t flown internationally since, but I’m afraid my attitude today as we keep getting older, is not to care about price any more at all.
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OP
OP
MercyMe
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World's Longest Post (sorry! 
)
There were so many kind and thoughtful replies here that I was sort of overwhelmed. I hated creating a sort of "permission to spend" post, but I'm very thankful for everyone's comments.
I mentioned "justify" in the opening post and several others here used that word as well. For me, it is largely about justifying it to my future self. I have a concern that one day I may regret spending so much money on a hobby. Part of this stems from my childhood; I grew up poor (deep in a city, working as a student custodian to pay for my own education from high school through college, and with parents who both worked two or more jobs at any given time). I'm also a very hard working and dedicated business owner. I read an article online some time ago that combining these two aspects tend to create strong value hunters... sometimes to my/our own detriment. From my youth, I've carried forward a scarcity mentality (as opposed to one of abundance).
But I've also been growing toward an awareness of scarcity as it pertains to my days left on spaceship Earth. And the hobby I'm referring to is one that participants tend to "age out". I'm 52 and I'd be lucky to have 8 to 10 years to do it if I got back in now. My DW is well aware of this too and she is completely onboard with me getting back into the hobby. You may wonder if I'm not valuing her opinion, but I certainly do value it and she gets right of first refusal!
Others here had suggested philanthropy even if it means just giving bigger tips. My DW and I are no strangers to big tipping, supporting our church, and financially assisting our family and friends. To be honest, even if we doubled our typical annual donation amounts, the hobby would still cost more than twice as much. That further adds to the 'hard to justify' idea... justifying it to my future self which may be more generous and giving.
What about that idea that the hobby supports others in the community simply by spending money and contributing to the economy? I've run the hobby conundrum by a pastor/friend and he also suggested that even just spending the money in general is good for society at large; that it allows companies to pay their employees. Hard to argue that, but it doesn't help my thoughts/feelings on the absurd cost of this dream hobby since the flow of cash would mostly end up in the hands of stock holders and company principals.
Some posters suggest dialing the hobby back a bit and find a comfortable in-the-middle version. I so wish that were possible. This is largely an all-in type of hobby. There are fixed costs that are sunk at the very start. To dial the costs back by 10% would reduce the enjoyment by 40%. It is very hard to explain.
This is a hobby that feels like an addiction and those companies that sell items for the hobby base their prices on it. Newbies to the hobby are often greeted with the words "welcome to your new addiction". There is at least one poster here that probably knows what I am referring to. It is an addiction. The mastery of it is addicting. When I quit a number of years ago, I went through an odd sort of withdrawal. It has been said many times that when retiring, it is ideal to have something to run to instead of just running away from working. When I quit the hobby, I had nothing to run to and that made life kind of dark. Eventually I tried several new hobbies, but nothing brought me anything like that old joy... and really, nothing could. I found myself often thinking about the old hobby while working on the new ones!
Some posters replied asking what is "expensive". My income now while still working, and my income in retirement will support this hobby. Here is a post that paints a bit of the picture. It would take a stack of unfortunate life events for the hobby expense to derail our retirement plan. Our plan includes a few conservative possibilities such a living to 95 (formerly 92), expecting 70% of Social Security, lifetime real return of 1%, excessive healthcare costs including LTC, multiple openings for lumpy expenses, etc.
So what is "expensive"? It is so shamefully expensive that I don't know I could justify it to my future self. Or if I could justify it when/if I get to the pearly gates. What will God say? I sometimes jokingly wonder if He will ask me why I didn't enjoy the good fortune that He gave me and get back into the hobby.
My question to you is, if you keep spending on a hobby that is hard to justify, what do you tell yourself that makes it ok?
)There were so many kind and thoughtful replies here that I was sort of overwhelmed. I hated creating a sort of "permission to spend" post, but I'm very thankful for everyone's comments.
I mentioned "justify" in the opening post and several others here used that word as well. For me, it is largely about justifying it to my future self. I have a concern that one day I may regret spending so much money on a hobby. Part of this stems from my childhood; I grew up poor (deep in a city, working as a student custodian to pay for my own education from high school through college, and with parents who both worked two or more jobs at any given time). I'm also a very hard working and dedicated business owner. I read an article online some time ago that combining these two aspects tend to create strong value hunters... sometimes to my/our own detriment. From my youth, I've carried forward a scarcity mentality (as opposed to one of abundance).
But I've also been growing toward an awareness of scarcity as it pertains to my days left on spaceship Earth. And the hobby I'm referring to is one that participants tend to "age out". I'm 52 and I'd be lucky to have 8 to 10 years to do it if I got back in now. My DW is well aware of this too and she is completely onboard with me getting back into the hobby. You may wonder if I'm not valuing her opinion, but I certainly do value it and she gets right of first refusal!
Others here had suggested philanthropy even if it means just giving bigger tips. My DW and I are no strangers to big tipping, supporting our church, and financially assisting our family and friends. To be honest, even if we doubled our typical annual donation amounts, the hobby would still cost more than twice as much. That further adds to the 'hard to justify' idea... justifying it to my future self which may be more generous and giving.
What about that idea that the hobby supports others in the community simply by spending money and contributing to the economy? I've run the hobby conundrum by a pastor/friend and he also suggested that even just spending the money in general is good for society at large; that it allows companies to pay their employees. Hard to argue that, but it doesn't help my thoughts/feelings on the absurd cost of this dream hobby since the flow of cash would mostly end up in the hands of stock holders and company principals.
Some posters suggest dialing the hobby back a bit and find a comfortable in-the-middle version. I so wish that were possible. This is largely an all-in type of hobby. There are fixed costs that are sunk at the very start. To dial the costs back by 10% would reduce the enjoyment by 40%. It is very hard to explain.
This is a hobby that feels like an addiction and those companies that sell items for the hobby base their prices on it. Newbies to the hobby are often greeted with the words "welcome to your new addiction". There is at least one poster here that probably knows what I am referring to. It is an addiction. The mastery of it is addicting. When I quit a number of years ago, I went through an odd sort of withdrawal. It has been said many times that when retiring, it is ideal to have something to run to instead of just running away from working. When I quit the hobby, I had nothing to run to and that made life kind of dark. Eventually I tried several new hobbies, but nothing brought me anything like that old joy... and really, nothing could. I found myself often thinking about the old hobby while working on the new ones!
Some posters replied asking what is "expensive". My income now while still working, and my income in retirement will support this hobby. Here is a post that paints a bit of the picture. It would take a stack of unfortunate life events for the hobby expense to derail our retirement plan. Our plan includes a few conservative possibilities such a living to 95 (formerly 92), expecting 70% of Social Security, lifetime real return of 1%, excessive healthcare costs including LTC, multiple openings for lumpy expenses, etc.
So what is "expensive"? It is so shamefully expensive that I don't know I could justify it to my future self. Or if I could justify it when/if I get to the pearly gates. What will God say? I sometimes jokingly wonder if He will ask me why I didn't enjoy the good fortune that He gave me and get back into the hobby.
My question to you is, if you keep spending on a hobby that is hard to justify, what do you tell yourself that makes it ok?
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I think the fact that you are so reluctant to tell us what it is means that you're leaning strongly toward thinking it's not justifiable. So how can we respond?
We had biz class to/from South America (into Peru, out of Ecuador) a month or so ago. It was not the new biz class standard... Seats were not the lie flat/pod seats - they were more like the old school first... which is like the new school transatlantic premium economy. Wider, more leg room, nice meal service, but not lie flat. It did qualify us for lounge access, which was nice.
Our next trip to Europe is premium economy going there, biz class return... That's because biz class to get there was 6x economy and 3 times premium economy for the eastbound flight. Returning was much less expensive.
As far as hobbies - if you can afford it, and you enjoy it, and the expense won't make you enjoy it less... go for it.
Romer
Recycles dryer sheets
Agreed
Knowing what the hobby is and how meaningful it is to you is an important question
Ronstar
Moderator Emeritus
God will say that you should have given more info to the ER.org crowd so that they could have better answered your questions.
My feelings about discretionary spending have changed quite a bit from when I was 52. Of course, at 52 I was still working and saving as much as I could for retirement. Nowadays my concern is more about time left than money left.
I’m not comfortable with wasting money….too many years of frugal living are ingrained in me. However, if it something I really want and can afford then I realize that now is the time to go for it.
I’m not comfortable with wasting money….too many years of frugal living are ingrained in me. However, if it something I really want and can afford then I realize that now is the time to go for it.
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Not sure what the issue is about shareholders getting a return on their investments. From looking at your attached link, you're a shareholder in a number of funds. Many middle- and working-class people; service providers, first-responders, military; are shareholders by virtue of their retirement plans.
That said, if you can't justify your spending/hobby to YOUR own satisfaction, maybe you had best move on.
P.S. I think most go through a justification phase, albeit, some may have a lower bar than others, i.e.
- I want it (bingo, justified);
- I want it and I can afford it;
- I want it, I can afford it, and it provides value, etc.
- I want it, I can afford it, it provides value, it benefits others . . .
That said, if you can't justify your spending/hobby to YOUR own satisfaction, maybe you had best move on.
P.S. I think most go through a justification phase, albeit, some may have a lower bar than others, i.e.
- I want it (bingo, justified);
- I want it and I can afford it;
- I want it, I can afford it, and it provides value, etc.
- I want it, I can afford it, it provides value, it benefits others . . .
Surewhitey
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
My affordability is more about time than expense.
On the expense side, I look at the benefits of the hobby. My biggie is woodworking and carpentry. I've been able to monetize it with side work and building my own custom furniture and upgrades to the home for material costs only. Also gifting things I make saves some on this budget. I'm less hesitant to buy some tool or material when I want to buy it...
On the expense side, I look at the benefits of the hobby. My biggie is woodworking and carpentry. I've been able to monetize it with side work and building my own custom furniture and upgrades to the home for material costs only. Also gifting things I make saves some on this budget. I'm less hesitant to buy some tool or material when I want to buy it...
NW-Bound
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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If after spending the initial amount to get you started in this hobby, you still retain enough to afford the ongoing expenses with a 4% WR, then you can afford it.
It may still be hard and does not feel right. Many of us can identify with this, because we were not born "with a silver spoon in our mouth". We got to where we are today by being frugal. And when we spend an amount that seems extravagant to us but routine to a rich person of blue blood, we cannot help feeling guilty, particularly when we still think of people who do not have as much as we do.
So, I don't know what to say, but to borrow the following quote to describe the sentiment.
"Conscience is the part of you that hurts when the rest feels so good" -- Anon
flyingaway
Full time employment: Posting here.
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Here's the problem I've seen with "playing slots" (a lot)... Sooner or later you will hit a few jackpots. ($1200 or more). With each one of those jackpots, you will get a W2G. State tax is usually withheld immediately and federal tax can be paid then or it will be owed when you file your annual return. Then over the year you play more and more. By the end of the year, 99% of us will lose more than we won but you still paid and/or owe the taxes on the jackpots. Yes, you can deduct/offset your losses (up to your winnings) if you itemize and you keep detailed and accurate records. But few
Unfortunately, we have not hit a Jackpot yet because we like playing some old slots with smaller minimum bets, for example $0.30 a spin. We only make bigger bets (up to $1.0) when chasing some progressive awards. The largest win we had was about $900 with a $0.60 bet. As I said before, we like to have fun and we know we will lose money in casinos. Why bet bigger and lose bigger?
RobbieB
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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If you are wondering what God will say on judgement day regarding your expensive hobby then do not proceed.
You wouldn't ever want to be damned to hell for a hobby.
Give it up now and never think of it again.
You wouldn't ever want to be damned to hell for a hobby.
Give it up now and never think of it again.
Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
World's Longest Post (sorry!
There were so many kind and thoughtful replies here that I was sort of overwhelmed. I hated creating a sort of "permission to spend" post, but I'm very thankful for everyone's comments.
I mentioned "justify" in the opening post and several others here used that word as well. For me, it is largely about justifying it to my future self. I have a concern that one day I may regret spending so much money on a hobby. Part of this stems from my childhood; I grew up poor (deep in a city, working as a student custodian to pay for my own education from high school through college, and with parents who both worked two or more jobs at any given time). I'm also a very hard working and dedicated business owner. I read an article online some time ago that combining these two aspects tend to create strong value hunters... sometimes to my/our own detriment. From my youth, I've carried forward a scarcity mentality (as opposed to one of abundance).
But I've also been growing toward an awareness of scarcity as it pertains to my days left on spaceship Earth. And the hobby I'm referring to is one that participants tend to "age out". I'm 52 and I'd be lucky to have 8 to 10 years to do it if I got back in now. My DW is well aware of this too and she is completely onboard with me getting back into the hobby. You may wonder if I'm not valuing her opinion, but I certainly do value it and she gets right of first refusal!
Others here had suggested philanthropy even if it means just giving bigger tips. My DW and I are no strangers to big tipping, supporting our church, and financially assisting our family and friends. To be honest, even if we doubled our typical annual donation amounts, the hobby would still cost more than twice as much. That further adds to the 'hard to justify' idea... justifying it to my future self which may be more generous and giving.
What about that idea that the hobby supports others in the community simply by spending money and contributing to the economy? I've run the hobby conundrum by a pastor/friend and he also suggested that even just spending the money in general is good for society at large; that it allows companies to pay their employees. Hard to argue that, but it doesn't help my thoughts/feelings on the absurd cost of this dream hobby since the flow of cash would mostly end up in the hands of stock holders and company principals.
Some posters suggest dialing the hobby back a bit and find a comfortable in-the-middle version. I so wish that were possible. This is largely an all-in type of hobby. There are fixed costs that are sunk at the very start. To dial the costs back by 10% would reduce the enjoyment by 40%. It is very hard to explain.
This is a hobby that feels like an addiction and those companies that sell items for the hobby base their prices on it. Newbies to the hobby are often greeted with the words "welcome to your new addiction". There is at least one poster here that probably knows what I am referring to. It is an addiction. The mastery of it is addicting. When I quit a number of years ago, I went through an odd sort of withdrawal. It has been said many times that when retiring, it is ideal to have something to run to instead of just running away from working. When I quit the hobby, I had nothing to run to and that made life kind of dark. Eventually I tried several new hobbies, but nothing brought me anything like that old joy... and really, nothing could. I found myself often thinking about the old hobby while working on the new ones!
Some posters replied asking what is "expensive". My income now while still working, and my income in retirement will support this hobby. Here is a post that paints a bit of the picture. It would take a stack of unfortunate life events for the hobby expense to derail our retirement plan. Our plan includes a few conservative possibilities such a living to 95 (formerly 92), expecting 70% of Social Security, lifetime real return of 1%, excessive healthcare costs including LTC, multiple openings for lumpy expenses, etc.
So what is "expensive"? It is so shamefully expensive that I don't know I could justify it to my future self. Or if I could justify it when/if I get to the pearly gates. What will God say? I sometimes jokingly wonder if He will ask me why I didn't enjoy the good fortune that He gave me and get back into the hobby.
My question to you is, if you keep spending on a hobby that is hard to justify, what do you tell yourself that makes it ok?
If there is an element of "addiction" to the hobby, I'd suggest that just MIGHT be a reason not to go back to it. Forget the money! Avoid addiction because addiction is potentially bad for you.
