ER is NOT the goal!

Completely agree with OP. About a year ago I was really obsessed with ER. My target date is also 10+ years away, but I couldn't stop thinking about it. It made everything I did meaningless; I felt I was only on mile one of a hopelessly long marathon, and I was dying of dehydration.

I forced myself to think less about ER, and in the meanwhile, got a new and more interesting job. Now I think I am in a better place. I have developed frugal habits so that I don't have to feel squeezed, yet still save a reasonable amount. I take 2 international trips a year (traveling is my passion). I am not as obsessed with my FIRE date, and think that pushing it back for 5 years is not really the end of the world, so long as I like my job.

So yeah, my goal is to live my life fully while LBMM, make saving automatic, and try not to think about ER! If I am consistent, it will happen, regardless of how much or little I obsess over it.
 
headingout said:
Interesting topic. We also save about half our income and tread this same balancing act between enjoying life now and deferring gratification. It would be easy to fall into the trap of living solely for ER, and arriving there bitter, or dead. In general I think we've made the right compromises. As time goes on, it seems that major luxuries are less and less material to happiness.

Recently I have been thinking the problem is not work, but working on other's schedule and priorities as so many of us do in corporate life. A part-time job could speed up ER, provide insurance against inflation and unexpected expenses, and generate satisfaction. Rather than flogging myself through the last few years of corporate life so that I can (with luck, inflation, medicare, and ss willing) never work again, it might make sense to look at part-time, self-employed work options.
Click to expand...

ESRBob has another disciple.
 
I was advised by the wiser folk on this board that I shouldn't try to "suck it up" for another 20 years, and that I needed to enjoy now. It took a while, but I think I've turned a corner. Life is so short, you don't know how many Saturdays you have left. Appreciate the fact you have money left over at the end of the month to invest, because so few people in the world do.

I'm going to spend two weeks in Hawaii next spring with my daughters, who will be 2 and 4 at the time. Those are memories I can't make up during retirement.
 
harley said:
By the way, not to totally hijack the thread, I do agree that ER isn't the best goal to have in life if you do it to absurd extremes. But FI IS an excellent goal, IMHO. The pursuit of FI tends to teach frugality, long term planning, and at least for me helped get me through some depressing times working for 'da man'.

But I would never suggest a mindless pursuit of anything, whether ER, FI, immediate ratification, whatever. A well rounded person is usually happier than an obsessed person, no matter what the obsession. And if you don't know how to be happy by the time you RE, I doubt retiring will solve any of your problems. Again, MHO.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I do think that I've been "mindlessly pursuing" FIRE. My main point is that I'd kind of lost the forest while looking at the trees. The big picture is enjoying life. This board is atypical in that we plan ahead and LBOM, so most of us don't need any more lessons on saving for the future. But I do believe that some of us (myself included) have the potential to sacrifice too much of the present.

And I was in the same emotional place as GoodSense's year-ago-state until recently. ER is going to be so awesome, that it's sometimes depressing to think that I won't be there any time soon. But I believe you need to get yourself to that mental place where you can be truly emotionally comfortable with the fact that the future will take care of itself and you've got to enjoy the present.

And even though I mentioned money, it isn't even really about spending more money. In my case, I have been reining in the spending probably a bit too much. But even without increasing discretional spending, I had an unhealthy mental attitude towards money. Unexpected expenses (health, car, house fixes) have made me angry in the past, probably because I could feel my FIRE date slipping by a day or two or ten. Which is kind of nutso when you've got at least 2500 working days to go. And I'm going to have those types of expenses regardless, but if I just accept them for what they are and not get upset with them, then I'm happier right there.

If you are happy with your life, then it doesn't matter so much when you retire. If you're a Young Dreamer but years and years away from ER regardless of what you do, work on making yourself happy first.
 
Kronk said:
Exactly. I do think that I've been "mindlessly pursuing" FIRE. My main point is that I'd kind of lost the forest while looking at the trees. The big picture is enjoying life. This board is atypical in that we plan ahead and LBOM, so most of us don't need any more lessons on saving for the future. But I do believe that some of us (myself included) have the potential to sacrifice too much of the present.

And I was in the same emotional place as GoodSense's year-ago-state until recently. ER is going to be so awesome, that it's sometimes depressing to think that I won't be there any time soon. But I believe you need to get yourself to that mental place where you can be truly emotionally comfortable with the fact that the future will take care of itself and you've got to enjoy the present.

And even though I mentioned money, it isn't even really about spending more money. In my case, I have been reining in the spending probably a bit too much. But even without increasing discretional spending, I had an unhealthy mental attitude towards money. Unexpected expenses (health, car, house fixes) have made me angry in the past, probably because I could feel my FIRE date slipping by a day or two or ten. Which is kind of nutso when you've got at least 2500 working days to go. And I'm going to have those types of expenses regardless, but if I just accept them for what they are and not get upset with them, then I'm happier right there.

If you are happy with your life, then it doesn't matter so much when you retire. If you're a Young Dreamer but years and years away from ER regardless of what you do, work on making yourself happy first.
Click to expand...





When I was in the military I used to take my leave and travel. In 1989 I was in Belize along the Guatemalan border checking out some Mayan ruins and ran into a retired Canadian reporter. We chatted for a while and I learned he had moved to Belize to live in Belize City (a real hole at the time, poverty, drugs, murder). His story was he had retired and took early CPP (SS) and moved to Belize City and after a year there wanted to live among the Maya along the Guatemalan boarder.

He spent most of his life chasing stories to report, working long hours, and somewhere along the road he forgot to live. He told me he wanted to LIVE out the rest of his life to give it some meaning. He was 61 at the time. I new right there I was on the right track. Balance is the key, live now and for the future at the same time. Life is too short. I decided to live my retirement dreams when I was young and travel to out of the way places before I grew too old to get to them, so I take breaks and use my vacation in blocks to travel a month at a time every couple of years. Had some great adventures that I couldn’t do if I waited until I retired
 
Find the balanced path that works for both goals. Have a reasonable amount for retirement savings on automatic, then just enjoy your life spending the rest of your income. I found that what I liked was not expensive, simply because expensive was unattractive to me.
 
humph! Who re-hijacked the thread back onto topic?

Try green tea with a bit of ginger - powdered or real, depending what you have around. A couple of cloves also can be good.

It tastes good, and will not have you singing 'green, green, green, the grass is green' as you drink your tea.

ta,
mew
 
Bimmerbill said:
I think I'm in the same camp. FI and the ability to FIRE is my goal. Not that I will necessarily FIRE. As things look now, FIRE is 14 years off and a lot can change in 14 years (not the least of which is my federal pension- will it still be there?).
Click to expand...
Exactly the conclusion I have come to. Based on 4% SWR, we reached FI a few years ago but I'm only 54 and while work is not as exciting/challenging as it once was, I don't want to retire quite yet. I'd rather build a bigger nest egg and enjoy a better life NOW while still working, no downside for me. If 'quality of work life' ever goes pear shaped, I now have the freedom/option to just retire. That's a great feeling!

I was thrilled with this forum at first. Then I started to see too many people from the 'ALL work is evil, I can't wait FIRE' camp and I considered dropping off this forum altogether, too negative and too much focus on RE. But now I've found a middle ground here...

And Yogi Chai Green is my favorite tea...
 
Midpack said:
Exactly the conclusion I have come to. Based on 4% SWR, we reached FI a few years ago but I'm only 54 and while work is not as exciting/challenging as it once was, I don't want to retire quite yet. I'd rather build a bigger nest egg and enjoy a better life NOW while still working, no downside for me. If 'quality of work life' ever goes pear shaped, I now have the freedom/option to just retire. That's a great feeling!

I was thrilled with this forum at first. Then I started to see too many people from the 'ALL work is evil, I can't wait FIRE' camp and I considered dropping off this forum altogether, too negative and too much focus on RE. But now I've found a middle ground here...

And Yogi Chai Green is my favorite tea...
Click to expand...

I agree with you that all work isn't evil. And FI is the point at which I changed my attitude, although I continued to work for a couple more years. I was hoping that during ER I might find that thing that I love to do so much that I wouldn't care if I made money. This, of course, is followed by the money pouring in. At least according to the self-help books. ;)

What I've discovered so far (2 years) is that I'm very happy not working. But I'm 52, and have time to change my mind. I'm all for live and let live. I'm going to do what I want, and so can anybody else. At least, after they reach FI. :cool:
 
Kronk said:
I've been finding, though, that too much emphasis on achieving FIRE is unhealthy. My FIRE date is at least 10 years off, and that would involve everything going really right.

...

Focusing too much on FIRE has involved sweating the small stuff too much.

...

Deferring gratification goes along with saving, but I'm finding that it is stupid to go through a decade with the outlook of "yeah, I'm unhappy now, but when I ER in 10 years I'll be loving life." Start loving life now and let FIRE take care of itself.

...

Between no longer "racing" to get to ER and just deciding to have a more positive outlook while at work, I'm feeling happier -- so I'm achieving my life's goal.
Click to expand...

Kronk, I can identify with much of what you say in your post. We hope to semi-retire in about 5 years, but like you said, you just don't know exactly how life will pan out. We've decided to loosen the purse-strings a little and live and enjoy a bit more - specifically by going on long weekend vacations more often to do some of the travel we long to do. We are also making more of an effort to plan out vacations a year in advance to go to some of the places we've had on our "list" for a while.

I just read an interesting quote by Stephen Leacock that emphasizes not missing the present while dreaming/planning for the future:

"The child says, 'When I am a big boy.' But what is that? The big boy says, 'When I grow up.' And then, grown up, he says, 'When I get married.' But to be married, what is that after all? The thought changes to 'When I am able to retire.' And then, when retirement comes, he looks back over the landscape traversed; a cold wind seems to sweep over it; somehow he has missed it all, and it is gone. Life, we learn too late, is in the living, in the tissue of every day and hour."

As a "Young Dreamer" I'm realizing that while it's ok to dream, I have to wake up and enjoy the day before me before it slips by and is gone.
 
simple girl said:
Kronk, I can identify with much of what you say in your post. We hope to semi-retire in about 5 years, but like you said, you just don't know exactly how life will pan out. We've decided to loosen the purse-strings a little and live and enjoy a bit more - specifically by going on long weekend vacations more often to do some of the travel we long to do. We are also making more of an effort to plan out vacations a year in advance to go to some of the places we've had on our "list" for a while.

I just read an interesting quote by Stephen Leacock that emphasizes not missing the present while dreaming/planning for the future:

"The child says, 'When I am a big boy.' But what is that? The big boy says, 'When I grow up.' And then, grown up, he says, 'When I get married.' But to be married, what is that after all? The thought changes to 'When I am able to retire.' And then, when retirement comes, he looks back over the landscape traversed; a cold wind seems to sweep over it; somehow he has missed it all, and it is gone. Life, we learn too late, is in the living, in the tissue of every day and hour."

As a "Young Dreamer" I'm realizing that while it's ok to dream, I have to wake up and enjoy the day before me before it slips by and is gone.
Click to expand...

Nice post Simple Girl.
Most of my life I lived in the future and it stole the present. It is not easy to change a lifelong characteristic.
Like many men I can be goal driven. The problem is when you attain your goal; do you know what to do with it? Have you ever heard the saying "Like a dog chasing a car." i.e. What is the dog going to do once it caught the car?
We are not taught "Life ... is in the living, in the tissue of every day and hour." We are taught to work towards the future.

Sometimes when I look back at certain aspects of my life; I see I had what I wanted. I didn't know it at the time and I didn't know what to do with it, so I lost it.

So you have what you need now to be happy. The question is do you see it, take advantage of it and appreciate it.

The goal is not ER but happiness.
 
I completely agree about making the most of your life, that's why I hate spending money when I don't think it is worth the amount of work I had to put in to earn that money.

Life should be enjoyed outside the confines of work or at least work should only be one part of a person's life rather than something that takes up an overwhelming portion of their time.

Work is a necessary part of life though, it is simply not possible to survive without doing at least some. So, the best way to go about it is to try and make it as short as possible or hope that one of your passions becomes profitable.

For me, I remember being pretty unhappy as a child, it wasn't until I had both independence and time to enjoy that independence that I was able to fully enjoy my life. I definitely didn't want to have to work, but, I knew there was no option for not working, so as soon as I gained independence I also started to start seriously working, but not anywhere near the degree I do now, it was more like part-time work at the time.

I think work is a lot easier to handle when you can do it part-time rather than full time, I envy those who have that option. I am working hard to make sure I have that same option at as early an age as possible. The old saying goes "time is greater than money" however, it forgets to mention, money can buy time (note I say can, it requires working and saving seriously).

As mentioned, people usually think in terms of what is going to make me happy now? Or, maybe they will take a step further and go, what goal can I set to make things "better"? They rarely setup a plan for their lives so that they can enjoy each phase. Goals are just a means to the end (of happiness) and should never be considered the end. The pursuit of happiness is an inalienable right, yet, people seem to forget to make use of that right.
 
I am going to agree with Kronk and everyone else. I'm only 25 but have determined that I have a good sense of how much a spend and that I budget very well.

I try to make saving automatic, 15% to 401k, automatic monthly withdrawals to Vanguard accounts. I found I was concentrating to much on how much a I was spending each day that it didn't become enjoyable being such a tight wad with money.

So now that it's automatic, the money I need for early retirement never hits my bank account and I can spend my time writing new songs instead of checking my account balances.

I still plan to retire early, but I will adjust my automatic savings according to my goals.
 
Yup, agree with the OP. Reading this thread, I guess many of us "young dreamers" go through this stage at some point (probably when we realize we're so far away that it's depressing!).

Better to focus on being happy in the present than postpone it until after retirement. After all, you could do everything "right" in terms of savings, and some catastrophic event could still prevent you from retiring ever. That's one reality slap in the face I'd rather not experience, so may as well practice being happy now. Don't get me wrong; you should still do everything you can (within reason) to save for retirement, just don't invest all of your happiness in it.
 
I feel the same way as the OP. Finding that balance is unique to each of us, but similar in so many ways.

For me, the biggest thing is an ATTITUDE of GRATITUDE. Instead of grumbling "I HATE this job! I can't wait til I can sit at home and relax all day...." I force myself to say something like "Yeah, this sure sucks. Good thing I HAVE a job though...and a wonderful family, home, and some cool toys"
 
thefed said:
For me, the biggest thing is an ATTITUDE of GRATITUDE. Instead of grumbling "I HATE this job! I can't wait til I can sit at home and relax all day...." I force myself to say something like "Yeah, this sure sucks. Good thing I HAVE a job though...and a wonderful family, home, and some cool toys"
Click to expand...

Fed - you got it!
 
+1 for thefed. I try to put a positive spin on my time at the job too. I guess it is what you make of it.
 
Bimmerbill said:
+1 for thefed. I try to put a positive spin on my time at the job too. I guess it is what you make of it.
Click to expand...

i actually got that term from Rev Run....the man writes a good book, believe it or not
 
As retirement portfolios shrink in the current market turmoil, it is understandable that we begin to subconsciously rationalize postponing retirement ("Those grapes are probably sour, anyway").

That said, I agree that it certainly makes sense to seek joy in the present. Gritting one's teeth and grimly holding on for the promised land of ER isn't much of a life.

Another big fallacy is the notion that if only something about the circumstances of our lives would change, then we would be happy. This kind of thinking is what I call "I would be happy IF _______" or "I will be happy WHEN _______".... The reality is that the elements that determined our happiness in the past, and can make for future happiness, are with us right now and are right here waiting to be taken advantage of.
Click to expand...
Sonja Lyubomirsky, The How of Happiness: A Scientific Approach to Getting the Life You Want (2007), p.40.
 
Whisper9999 said:
Bigelow Ceylon is the best tea on planet earth...
Click to expand...

I actually found a few ceylons that make bigelow seem like childsplay.... at specialteas dot com. its all loose tea though, pm me if you want specifics!
 
Kronk said:
Deferring gratification goes along with saving, but I'm finding that it is stupid to go through a decade with the outlook of "yeah, I'm unhappy now, but when I ER in 10 years I'll be loving life." Start loving life now and let FIRE take care of itself.

Between no longer "racing" to get to ER and just deciding to have a more positive outlook while at work, I'm feeling happier -- so I'm achieving my life's goal.
Click to expand...
very good post! it got me thinking...my "race to FIRE" didn't start until 10 years before it actually happened. conditions changed at w*rk and i realized i didn't want to be there anymore. but job possibilities were too tight where i live, so it was either stick it out for the benefits (civil service) or do a complete relocation x 2. "sticking it out" motivated me to do start some investing for retirement, accelerated 5 yrs later by a financial planning consultation with a CFP. that's when the 5 yr plan to FIRE really got adopted.
life was lived and loved as usual, just in more of a mode of saving & investing to a real defined goal. w*rk was more and more intolerable, but having that goal and achieving it made all the difference in the world. a means to an end.
no regrets...i did it MYYYYYYYYYY way. :D
 
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