Still Not Born to Run?

haha

haha

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From Curt Harris’ PaNu Blog:-Report of a computed tomography angiographic study on runners and controls:
“My three hypotheses all remain viable:
Weak form: Chronic Steady state aerobic training* (CSSAT) does nothing to prevent or reverse atherosclerosis
Mild Form: Some effects of CSSAT may be beneficial or neutral, but they are overridden by the inflammation promoting effects of the diets favored by those who train this way.
Strong Form: CSSAT itself promotes the inflammatory state via cortisol, cytokines, inadequate recovery, etc.”

PaNu - P?Nu Blog - Still not born torun

So it is at least possible that if you don't enjoy distance running, there may be better (and less boring) ways to spend time.

Ha
 
haha said:
From Curt Harris’ PaNu Blog:-Report of a computed tomography angiographic study on runners and controls:
“My three hypotheses all remain viable:
Weak form: Chronic Steady state aerobic training* (CSSAT) does nothing to prevent or reverse atherosclerosis
Mild Form: Some effects of CSSAT may be beneficial or neutral, but they are overridden by the inflammation promoting effects of the diets favored by those who train this way.
Strong Form: CSSAT itself promotes the inflammatory state via cortisol, cytokines, inadequate recovery, etc.”

PaNu - P?Nu Blog - Still not born torun

So it is at least possible that if you don't enjoy distance running, there may be better (and less boring) ways to spend time.

Ha
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My knees tell me not to run.
 
I can run if I'm after something or something is after me. But it sure is tough in high heels...
 
Running long distances is boring to me, but I found sprinting pretty fun myself. And talk about a great way to get the fat off fast...wowie!:D
 
Interesting article. Funny thing though, I have a cardiologist friend who is also running a marathon this fall, so apparently these findings aren't totally accepted among cardiologists.

I know that I feel better when I'm running rather than when I'm going through a sedentary time. Maybe that's in my head, but I doubt it. No knee pain either. But maybe my heart really is being damaged despite feeling better.

I've taken off 11 pounds in the last 3 months by running 40-60 miles a week AND limiting food quantities and cutting out a lot of junk.

Ha, I'll bet you have interests that I'd find quite boring. I know that running isn't for everyone. I don't think I've ever encouraged anyone to run that didn't show an interest.
 
RunningBum said:
Ha, I'll bet you have interests that I'd find quite boring. I know that running isn't for everyone. I don't think I've ever encouraged anyone to run that didn't show an interest.
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RunningB, I agree with this completely, and I probably shouldn't have used the word boring. Little is absolutely boring, and little is absolutely interesting. It all depends on who is the agent, and what are the circumstances.

Also I am not at all trying to talk anyone out of running. I just thought it was an intriguing counterpoint to consider for those who don't like running and who are perhaps forcing themselves to do it because of heart disease fears.

Also, it seems to me that the obverse of (distance running) is (not distance running), rather than being sedentary. And though this study did not address it, if this effect is real it likely also applies to many forms of grind-it-out aerobic activity.

BTW, my former FIL was a marathoner who would have fit the criteria for this study until about age 70, and he is going on 96 now, so it can't be too dangerous. :)

Ha
 
It is an interesting counterpoint. I've tried to figure out a way to ask in the running community "how much is too much" but didn't know if I could word it in a way to not get stomped on. The closest I've seen is advice that the healthier way is to train for a marathon, but not run it. Most people are running a marathon faster than a jog, which is hard enough, and then many continue on even when they are having a bad day, putting themselves in more danger.
 
I had not heard of these studies but it is alarming that over-training may increase risk. It makes sense if people are running (or whatever) to the point that inflammation is a problem. I liked running when I briefly engaged in it but I had serious problems with swelling in my ankles and inflammation in my hips and knees. About 5 years ago I took up cycling which is a good substitute and pain free for me. I ride a fair amount (about 100 miles a week in good weather) but I don't come close to over-training.
 
My doctor, who is in his 60s, runs 9 or 10 marathons a year. He's healthy as a horse (although perhaps a freak of nature, the lucky dog!:LOL:)

I've always enjoyed distance running, despite not being very good at it. I've done 4 marathons but probably no more, since my legs started giving out on me when I got to about 60. But I still average at least 10 miles a week, more in the cold weather.

For me, the benefits I feel from running far outweigh any negative aspects, so I'll keep doing it as long as I can.
 
I used to be a jogger, covering somewhere between 10-20 miles a week, so not exactly marathoner miles. I quit mostly due to laziness, and the unwillingness to adapt to the strange schedule given me by Megacorp...

When I was running regularly, I knew of several very "fit" runners who inexplicably keeled over dead from heart issues. Though this is definitely anecdotal, everyone familiar with these instances always wondered how someone so fit could have had heart problems. Maybe this is the answer. Of course, I'm not sure the mileage I was doing would fall into the "excess" category. Plus, since then, I've more or less rejected the low-fat, high-carb diet so popular with runners.
 
I reread the article today, and the ones it referenced, and a few things jumped out at me.

They compared runners with no special risk to non-runners who came in because they had some symptoms. Very interesting, and disturbing to me, that the seemingly higher risk non-runners had less plaque. However, the numbers were awfully small, 25 in one group, 22 in the other. And, there hasn't been any follow up to show which members of those groups actually had real heart issues.

There's no actual connection to the running itself, and there's some suggestion that it could be due to a typical runner's high carb / low fat diet. I probably eat more bread than most but not so much pasta, and generally don't even carbo load that much before races.

The thing about marathon running is that you don't come that close to max heart rate. A 5K runner, or someone shovelling snow or lifting weights will hit a much higher heart rate. But maybe it's having an elevated heart rate for an extended time that's causing some damage rather than peaking, if this study proves out.

There are a few really idiotic remarks by doctors in the comments sections, like "Some runners call in pizzas and eat them while out on their run. Pizza = pork which is usually a poor choice of meat. Unmetabolized fats may be the culprit. CT the pig's hearts." There's one guy who wrote a book on his ultra running who says he has called in for a pizza on a 100+ mile run. I don't know of anyone else who's done this. And pizza=pork is news to me.

In any case, thanks for posting this. It makes me think, though at this point I don't plan on changing anything. Anecdotally, I don't know any runners who've had heart attacks, and I know people who have run a marathon a month for over a year, and others who have run dozens of 100 milers. But I will keep my eyes open for more evidence.
 
RunningBum said:
I reread the article today, and the ones it referenced, and a few things jumped out at me.

They compared runners with no special risk to non-runners who came in because they had some symptoms. Very interesting, and disturbing to me, that the seemingly higher risk non-runners had less plaque. However, the numbers were awfully small, 25 in one group, 22 in the other. And, there hasn't been any follow up to show which members of those groups actually had real heart issues.

There's no actual connection to the running itself, and there's some suggestion that it could be due to a typical runner's high carb / low fat diet. I probably eat more bread than most but not so much pasta, and generally don't even carbo load that much before races.

The thing about marathon running is that you don't come that close to max heart rate. A 5K runner, or someone shovelling snow or lifting weights will hit a much higher heart rate. But maybe it's having an elevated heart rate for an extended time that's causing some damage rather than peaking, if this study proves out.

There are a few really idiotic remarks by doctors in the comments sections, like "Some runners call in pizzas and eat them while out on their run. Pizza = pork which is usually a poor choice of meat. Unmetabolized fats may be the culprit. CT the pig's hearts." There's one guy who wrote a book on his ultra running who says he has called in for a pizza on a 100+ mile run. I don't know of anyone else who's done this. And pizza=pork is news to me.

In any case, thanks for posting this. It makes me think, though at this point I don't plan on changing anything. Anecdotally, I don't know any runners who've had heart attacks, and I know people who have run a marathon a month for over a year, and others who have run dozens of 100 milers. But I will keep my eyes open for more evidence.
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I've been following some of these blogs for a while, as well as the Crossfit forum, and, as is often the case on the interwebs, this stuff is thought provoking, but should be taken with a grain of salt.

"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing"... :rolleyes:

For most folks, modest improvements in the SAD (standard American diet), along with ANY exercise, will be better than the status quo.
 
Thanks for posting. I'll definitely keep this in mind for backup info when I decide to quit running. But for now I'll keep doing 4 miles - 5 times a week.
 
Here's another article that discusses the risks of distance racing: Temporary Heart Damage May Explain Marathon Deaths | Exercise & Cardiac Health | LiveScience

"We know that regular exercise reduces cardiovascular risk by a factor of two or three in the long run, but while we're doing vigorous exercise such as marathon running, our cardiac risk increases by seven"

"According to the researchers on that study, running a marathon is half as risky as driving the same route on a normal day."

"The good news is that the damage isn't permanent. By the time of their three-month checkups, the runners' hearts were back in tip-top shape. A second bit of good news is that better training and hydration can decrease the damage. A higher VO2max, indicating better fitness, was linked with less temporary damage."

This all reinforces what I've heard, that training for a race is very healthy, but race day itself has some risks. But not as much risk as it would seem, since marathon deaths make news much like shark attacks do.

I like this final quote a lot:

"People should not enter a marathon lightly, training needs to be well done... You can't cheat the marathon."

Bottom line is that I'm still not changing my running, except that if I come into a race under-trained, I will definitely be more conscious of not pushing it very hard.
 
RB, I previously posted this in the "recent books" thread, but in case you missed it you will really enjoy the book Born to Run. Offers some interesting theories on running injuries but also is a very good story.

t.r.
 
I used to run 100+ miles a week at times and have run about 10 marathons years ago. Overtrained because I am a nut and don't like taking days off and have P. Tendon problems now(although my joints are perfect). I still kind of like an old saying I read somewhere years ago.....If you are running more than 3 miles a day, you aren't doing it for your health.....you are doing it because you want to. I would still be running 10 miles a day if I could.....I LIKE it.
 
This paper talks about specific "risks". I'll hold my opinion (and worry) until there's a study that show runner "have" a higher incidence of heart attacks than sedentary people.

I'm not a marathoner, but have run about 5 times a week most of my adult life. I feel great and my annual physicals confirm it (touch wood!) so far.
 
I've got a surf trip coming up and I've started running again, but I really don't like it at all. I'm a big tall dude and I'm more of a plodder than a runner, so it definitely does not come natural to me.

I've started off only running a couple of miles per outing, and only twice a week, and I'll probably get up to 3 miles 3x per week before I'm done. Last time I did this I ended up hurting my knee and had to quit right before a trip, but it's the only thing I know of to get some good cardio. I also swim, but that doesn't seem to get the heart up like running does for me.

Should I be sprinting instead? I'm lookig for more stamina when out on the water for 2-3 hours.
 
TeeRuh, I read that book, it is very good.

cardude, have you tried jumping rope? That gets my heart going real well. I'm surprised that swimming doesn't, but maybe it works for me because I'm not a good swimmer and have to work hard when swimming. Using an elliptical is another way to get running-like benefits without the strain on your knees.

Another suggestion would be to do "fartleks". No joke, it comes from Sweden. It is bursts of speed mixed in with slower running. You run at a comfortable speed, and speed up for 50-100 yards or a minute or so as you get more fit, or up a hill. Run hard but not quite an all out sprint. Slow back down to recover, and repeat as often as you like. A lot of times you pick out a landmark up ahead and run hard to it. It seems to me it might help with surfing as you are building some overall endurance but also training the body to handle sudden, fairly short demands.
 
cardude said:
... but it's the only thing I know of to get some good cardio. I also swim, but that doesn't seem to get the heart up like running does for me.
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Bicycing? Great for cardio if you go fast or climb hills.
I wish I found swimming so easy. I can barely do a lap before needing a break, but I can run for miles.
 
I like all of Sachel Paige's sayings, he sums up my feelings on running. Gave up running as soon as I was out of the Army. One of my favorite is Item three, from his Official Quotes page.

The other one is "don't look back.... a ways down the list, but in in my priorities.

Bold is by yours truly.


"Age is a question of mind over matter. If you don’t mind, it doesn’t matter."

"I ain't ever had a job, I just always played baseball."

"I don't generally like running. I believe in training by rising gently up and down from the bench."

"I never rush myself. See, they can't start the game without me."

"I use my single windup, my double windup, my triple windup, my hesitation windup, my no windup. I also use my step-n-pitch-it, my submariner, my sidearmer and my bat dodger. Man's got to do what he's got to do."

"If a man can beat you, walk him."

"It's funny what a few no-hitters do for a body."

"My feet ain't got nothing to do with my nickname, but when folks get it in their heads that a feller's got big feet, soon the feet start looking big."

"One time I snuck a ball on with me and when I went to winding up, I threw one of them balls to first and one to second. I was so smooth I picked off both runners and fanned the batter without that ump or the other team even knowing it."

"The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second class citizen to a second class immortal."

"There never was a man on earth who pitched as much as me. But the more I pitched, the stronger my arm would get."

"When a batter swings and I see his knees move, I can tell just what his weaknesses are then I just put the ball where I know he can't hit it."

"Ain’t no man can avoid being born average, but there ain’t no man got to be common."

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I would toss one that ain’t never been seen by this generation."

"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don’t move."

"They said I was the greatest pitcher they ever saw…I couldn’t understand why they couldn’t give me no justice."

"Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."

"Don't pray when it rains if you don't pray when the sun shines."

"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"

"Money and women. They're two of the strongest things in the world. The things you do for a woman you wouldn't do for anything else. Same with money."

"Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching."

"You win a few, you lose a few. Some get rained out. But you got to dress for all of them."

"My pitching philosophy is simple; you gotta keep the ball off the fat part of the bat."

"I never had a job. I always played baseball."

"Mother always told me, if you tell a lie, always rehearse it. If it don't sound good to you, it won't sound good to no one else."

"Don't eat fried food, it angries up the blood."
 
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At age 65, I continue to run. I completed a (slow) marathon earlier this year, and have scheduled three marathons for next year. I train properly but I rarely run two days in a row to give myself good recovery time.

I am a recovered heart patient, having had angioplasty (with two stents) 10 years ago and two ablation operations for atrial fibrillation (in 2007 and 2008). My cardiologist said that my regular running probably kept me alive. My heart is now doing well and I am symptom free.

I will keep running as long as my body permits. The articular cartilage in my knees is in excellent condition, and my orthopedic surgeons said that, as far as my knees are concerned, I can continue to run for the rest of my life.

I also try to do a triathlon a year, which I believe is a funner and more sane athletic activity. But I am a runner out of habit and tradition, so running will remain my main sport.
 
walkinwood said:
Bicycing? Great for cardio if you go fast or climb hills.
I wish I found swimming so easy. I can barely do a lap before needing a break, but I can run for miles.
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Cycling is also easier on the joints that running.......;)
 
TromboneAl said:
I am no longer convinced that exercise helps with weight:

Does Exercise Really Make Us Thinner? -- New York Magazine

And for help in physically reading articles like the ones cited here:

Readability - An Arc90 Lab Experiment
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I agree. As someone who has struggled with weight all my life and as a long-time marathoner, I have come to the conclusion that overweight people who take up running loose weight initially, until the body adjusts to the new exercise habit, but after that, the weight starts coming back on. It takes exercise AND food management to lose and keep of the weight. Even though I'm down 35 pounds from my highest weight, I am still 25 pounds overweight, and it's a daily battle to stay where I am, let alone lose more weight.
 
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