Agree we need to reopen without vulnerable/elderly at first?

[gwraigty]

Maybe but maybe not, if losing 20% of their business means they make no profit. In this case they'd be working for nothing or even going deeper in the red..that won't work.

They're working hard right now on safety standards for restaurants in my state. During one task force conference, a restaurant owner said that if they used 50% capacity as a starting point, it would work for a short while, but not indefinitely, unless the landlord/utility companies, etc. were willing to temporarily discount rent/charges by 50%. Some will gladly open up even with that level of restriction, but at some point, they must get back to a certain level or go under altogether.

What I'm learning from watching the daily task force conferences is that so much is highly dependent on the nature of the business and the size of the business. Many business owners are stressing that a one-size-fits-all approach will not work. Yet, that is not being taken into consideration in these reopening plans.

 

[PatrickA5]

I would feel more comfortable surrounded by 70 somethings than 20 somethings. I feel more seniors would SD than teenagers.

I would also feel more comfortable around older people - especially if they're practicing social distancing and wearing masks.

On the other hand, my 83 FIL doesn't care. He's still going to several stores a day.

Also, just got off the phone with my brother (64). He's convinced it's all a hoax dreamed up by the liberals and big pharma to take away our basic rights. He thinks Fauci and Burkes are "plants". Something about them getting paid to destroy our individual freedoms and starting social welfare for all. Something like that. I didn't ask him if he's been going to protests, but it wouldn't surprise me.

You really never know who you're standing next to in the grocery line.

 

[timo2]

None of these separation schemes mentioned here are likely to work. They can't be enforced, and I have not noticed seniors are not any more diligent about virus mitigation strategies than anyone else. It's going to have to be a clever business strategy to encompass everyone.

Older folks already have a stigma for activities society deems unfit for them. And seniors will be judged because we all have the new category 'at risk' written all over us: "Well they went to the brewpub and caught the coronavirus. What on earth were they doing there anyway".

That's just human nature. When I was w*orking I used to joke to others that I probably should not go on my daily lunch walk if there was a little bit of ice. Not because I was afraid, but I didn't want the clip in the local newspaper to read '62 year old man dies after a fall on ice' and everyone would say: "what on earth was a 62 year old doing walking with ice on the walk!!" This is how it is playing out with COVID19. When someone over 70 dies of COVID19 that had a preexisting condition, some people will say 'oh well they had a preexisting condition, nothing to see here'.

So older people mingling with general society is probably going to get a COVID related stigma no matter what scheme for businesses is developed. Maybe we need to bring back the 'Grey Panthers'.

 

[statsman]

Would you pay triple the price for your dinner, I don't think there is a restaurant in existence that can make money on 25% of it's capacity.

Even at double the price and 50% maximum capacity, many restaurants would likely call it quits. And people would whine because of the services not catering to *them*.

Well, guess what? When the SHTF and numerous businesses go under because they cannot operate under rigid social distancing restrictions, we're *all* going to have to live without for a while, maybe a *long* while.

 

[USGrant1962]

That's a good question. Just because you're old and/or vulnerable doesn't mean you're less likely to get someone else sick if you haven't been taking precautions.

My thought was maybe there is a certain time that seniors could shop where certain safety measures were strictly enforced. I wouldn't mind going to my local grocery store if it wasn't crowded and everybody was forced to wear masks and I didn't have to worry about people that don't care being anywhere near me. Like Harlee, I will seek these places out and try to avoid others.

I said here when that first started that concentrating the vulnerable in space and time seems unwise.

 

[Bir48die]

So I have a question for all those retired folks. What if in order for us to all us to feel safe we agreed to give up 25% of all pensions, SS and total investable assets?

We want to tell others how to act or behave for a long period of time. If we have the luxury of staying at home and living off our wealth what do we tell others that don't have that ability? If we are going to shut down the economy then we should all do our part to prop it up. We're just fortunate in timing, that's all.

 

[MichaelB]

While living and working in Latin America, the absence of old people out and about was quite noticeable. They were all confined to their homes and residences, and it was sad. There were many reasons for this; the streets were not pedestrian friendly, neither was public transportation, and they did not have financial resources.

One of the things I really enjoy about living in the US is the diversity of people one encounters while out. It would be truly disheartening if that were to change.

 

[Midpack]

What I want to see in restaurants is strictly enforced safety, limited number of diners so I don't have to sit near anyone (maybe only 25% capacity), strict cleaning, staff wearing masks, cleaned menus or disposable menus. So maybe it will have to be an early time with only 25% capacity for seniors or maybe I can have a private room.

Undoubtedly you realize the challenge it presents to serve 25% capacity. They can reduce some variable costs (e.g. labor, food) but a restaurant can’t suddenly absorb fixed costs (e.g. rent/mortgage, insurance, prop taxes, utilities, etc.) with 25% of former sales. To say this is going to require some creativity is a huge understatement. And of course the impact hits all the people and businesses that depend on restaurants. I want restaurants to survive and thrive, but that’s not a given.

 

[Midpack]

Older folks already have a stigma for activities society deems unfit for them. And seniors will be judged because we all have the new category 'at risk' written all over us: "Well they went to the brewpub and caught the coronavirus. What on earth were they doing there anyway".

Whether those under 55 say it out loud or not, it’s true.

All non essential people are in lockdown now to protect the more vulnerable, with underlying health issues, often seniors. Most people under 55 are paying a high economic price now, some have lost jobs that won’t be back soon enough for them to provide for themselves or their family. Others will see their businesses destroyed - all to protect the vulnerable. We have to face the trade offs, and the vulnerable will have to take full responsibility for their higher risks. Is there another option that’s best for all?

Not suggesting it’s workable, but if everyone over 55 remained in lockdown, everyone under 55 without underlying health issues could probably resume many activities without overwhelming health care resources.

 

[timo2]

Is there another option that’s best for all?

Not suggesting it’s workable, but if everyone over 55 remained in lockdown, everyone under 55 without underlying health issues could probably resume many activities without overwhelming health care resources.

I think PatrickA5 has what will happen regardless of any of our wishes:

Very soon everybody will be able to go back to their old lives - if they want. The "healthy" people will be free to do as they please. The old and unhealthy people will also be free to do as they please. We're going to see how this all works out. I don't know the answer.

 

[Just_Steve]

One hitch I see with opening up businesses now is what do parents going back to work do about their school-age children? Who takes care of them? I am not saying we shouldn't open up businesses. But dealing with school-age children when parents need to go back to work is going to be a big hurdle to overcome.

And what about this summer? A lot of these kids end up in summer camps and the like, and there is a good possibility most of these camps will not be operating this summer.

NY Governor says schools, business and transportation are 3 interconnected cogs and you can't turn one without the others.

 

[harllee]

Would you pay triple the price for your dinner, I don't think there is a restaurant in existence that can make money on 25% of it's capacity.

Before the virus I often ate at off times--during the week or an early dinner or late lunch and the restaurant would be 25% full (or sometimes DH and I would be the only diners). If a restaurant could make those less busy times safe and attractive for us seniors I would definitely consider going. Otherwise I will just stay home. The restaurants that are smart and creative will make it--the others I am afraid will not. Where I live we have way too many restaurants anyway. Several open each year and don't last but I few months. The ones that make it know their customers and cater to them.

 

[harllee]

So I have a question for all those retired folks. What if in order for us to all us to feel safe we agreed to give up 25% of all pensions, SS and total investable assets?

We want to tell others how to act or behave for a long period of time. If we have the luxury of staying at home and living off our wealth what do we tell others that don't have that ability? If we are going to shut down the economy then we should all do our part to prop it up. We're just fortunate in timing, that's all.

YES YES YES. I would gladly give up 25% of my income and investments to save lives and make us feel safe--I would do it to save only one life. It hurts my heart that so many are willing for people to die just so they can get go back to their "normal" lives. The economy has its ups and downs but once lives are lost they are gone forever. I hate that our country has come to this. I am now trying to figure out how to make donations and spend money to help people overcome all these hardships. I never thought I would see my fellow citizens be so selfish that they would trade the lives of their parents and grandparents to be able to go to a restaurant or a bar or a bowling alley. I am so disappointed in our country right now.

 

[audreyh1]

The world has changed completely. Folks expecting to go back to the ways things were a few months ago are going to be deeply disappointed.

 

[RobbieB]

I have never once in my life needed to "feel safe"

If I did I wouldn't have owned a dozen motorcycles or did all those drugs or smoked winstons for 40 years.

I'll take my chances, I'm a gambler and I think my odds are good. Well worth the risk.

And hey if I die then I won't have to worry about covid anymore eh?

 

[Markola]

And if you are an asymptomatic spreader who gives it to someone you love?

 

[Midpack]

The world has changed completely. Folks expecting to go back to the ways things were a few months ago are going to be deeply disappointed.

I agree, but the changes will vary dramatically. Masks, gloves, hand sanitizer and safe distances will be more common - small price to pay IMO. Grocery shopping won’t change much, hasn’t so far. Clearly restaurants, hair/nail salons (and all close one on one situations), air travel, and large gatherings will change more. Work will change little for some, more dramatically for others.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

YES YES YES. I would gladly give up 25% of my income and investments to save lives and make us feel safe--I would do it to save only one life. It hurts my heart that so many are willing for people to die just so they can get go back to their "normal" lives. The economy has its ups and downs but once lives are lost they are gone forever. I hate that our country has come to this. I am now trying to figure out how to make donations and spend money to help people overcome all these hardships. I never thought I would see my fellow citizens be so selfish that they would trade the lives of their parents and grandparents to be able to go to a restaurant or a bar or a bowling alley. I am so disappointed in our country right now.

I would phrase it "They are willing to trade your and your parents lives to be at a restaurant, bar or a bowling alley."

As long as nothing happens to them, they are fine with it. That's my observation.

 

[audreyh1]

I agree, but the changes will vary dramatically. Masks, gloves, hand sanitizer and safe distances will be more common - small price to pay IMO. Grocery shopping won’t change much, hasn’t so far. Clearly restaurants, hair/nail salons (and all close one on one situations), air travel, and large gatherings will change more. Work will change little for some, more dramatically for others.

It’s going to take a very long time for travel, especially international travel, to get back to any semblance of what it was less than a year ago.

 

[RobbieB]

And if you are an asymptomatic spreader who gives it to someone you love?

Well, I lost my first wife to cancer, the second to covid?

Yeah, what if?

What if cows could fly? We would need more car washes and some new windshields too.

 

[USGrant1962]

Well, I lost my first wife to cancer, the second to covid?

Yeah, what if?

What if cows could fly? We would need more car washes and some new windshields too.

+1

This "what if" stuff is approaching pandemic status.

 

[Sunset]

The world has changed completely. Folks expecting to go back to the ways things were a few months ago are going to be deeply disappointed.

+1
Things in Wuhan are not back to normal, more like extremely slow awakening, even though it is supposedly open for business. A City of 11 million people.

It's going to take a lot of time to come back.

 

[harllee]

I have never once in my life needed to "feel safe"

If I did I wouldn't have owned a dozen motorcycles or did all those drugs or smoked winstons for 40 years.

I'll take my chances, I'm a gambler and I think my odds are good. Well worth the risk.

And hey if I die then I won't have to worry about covid anymore eh?

So you have no parents or older relatives that you love and want to be safe? I think it is OK for you to do things that risk you life but not OK for you to risk the lives of many many others. By your picture you look about my age (I am 68) so do you still smoke, do drugs and ride motorcycles?

 

[Music Lover]

This is not correct. The BBC reported an interview with Susan Wojcicki, CEO of YouTube https://www.early-retirement.org/fo...oint-of-covid-testing-103539.html#post2420323

There is no censoring of disagreement with WHO. There is censoring of unsubstantiated medical advice that directly contradicts WHO medical recommendations.

I call that censorship. You can find thousands of unsubstantiated medical opinions on both sides of thousands of issues on YouTube that have been there for years.

Why is it wrong to disagree with the WHO, especially since we all know they have been wrong several times? More importantly, why does YouTube deem it necessary to delete opinions contrary to the WHO? I think I know why but I can't say...my comment might already be too political.

 

[LRDave]

+1

This "what if" stuff is approaching pandemic status.

I feel the same way about Firecalc results......