Big trips on a tightwad budget?

[dixonge]

So I finally got into the right mental space to allow myself the luxury of traveling like we've always wanted to, but without the backpacks and hostels. Current trip length is around 7 weeks. I've been pricing every possible combination of itineraries I can come up with from either Guadalajara, Mexico City or D/FW on this end to Lisbon, Madrid or Paris on the other. I have questions for the seasoned Europe travelers out there:

1. I got burned before when booking with a 3rd-party discount fare site (don't remember which one) - but they are so much cheaper than going direct w/ airlines. Any reason I should avoid them? (In this case, Expedia, Booking.com, Orbitz, Priceline)

2. Why are flights that connect *through* Madrid cheaper than flights that just *stop* in Madrid?

3. The longest leg on the cheapest flight I have found so far is almost 11 hours (Mexico City > Madrid) - how much will I regret not upgrading to any level that has a bit more legroom?

4. I have set an arbitrary $10k budget for travel per year, and this one trip appears to be a very short distance from blowing right through that number. Am I doing something wrong, or is this just the new normal?

5. The flights alone look like they will be about 25% of the cost - does this sound about right?

6. Are flights cheaper in September vs. April/May?

I have not yet estimated food costs. We are vegan, although I suspect we will be more vegetarian on this trip. We are not foodies looking for 3-star Michelin eperiences, we are happy with mom-and-pop restaurants. Does anyone have an idea of daily restaurant budget? 2 adults no kids.

 

[Sunset]

Do you have a credit card that provides some travel protections (lost bag, delayed travel, etc) ?

I'd be happy with a 7 week trip for 10K, it was a few years ago, but we did a month trip in Europe and it was ~10K.

You might want to check flight costs from various cities. Example in Ottawa Canada, I saved $250 pp by driving 2-3 hours to a small New York State airport to fly to Florida. Since I was paying for 4 tickets it was an easy savings of $1K.

So if you can fly from more than 1 airport, it could be worth it to compare the differences.

 

[dixonge]

Do you have a credit card that provides some travel protections (lost bag, delayed travel, etc) ?

I'd be happy with a 7 week trip for 10K, it was a few years ago, but we did a month trip in Europe and it was ~10K.

You might want to check flight costs from various cities. Example in Ottawa Canada, I saved $250 pp by driving 2-3 hours to a small New York State airport to fly to Florida. Since I was paying for 4 tickets it was an easy savings of $1K.

So if you can fly from more than 1 airport, it could be worth it to compare the differences.

I'm sure there are some travel protections thru my Schwab AmEx...

I've been checking multiple departure and arrival cities, absolutely.

 

[athena53]

1. I got burned before when booking with a 3rd-party discount fare site (don't remember which one) - but they are so much cheaper than going direct w/ airlines. Any reason I should avoid them? (In this case, Expedia, Booking.com, Orbitz, Priceline)

Yes. If something goes wrong there's someone in the middle and each party blames the other. I once had a hotel reservation through Orbitz and when it was cancelled by the hotel (Ecuador, March, 2020 as COVID was becoming a concern and countries were closing their borders). I waited and waited and waited for Marriott to refund my $$$. Turned out Marriott had never been paid by Orbitz. I did recover from Orbitz but later than it should have been. I'd used Orbitz only because I'd booked from Bolivia and wanted an English-language interface.

I rarely find cheaper airfares although I did once and saved $300 in Business Class to Edinburgh on Orbitz.

2. Why are flights that connect *through* Madrid cheaper than flights that just *stop* in Madrid?

Because it's a crapshoot. It may change next week. If the ones that just "stop" in Madrid are so-called direct flights I wouldn't trust them- I've had some where you actually change planes (so you still have the risk of missing a connection) and you don't get credit for the extra mileage from a connection.

3. The longest leg on the cheapest flight I have found so far is almost 11 hours (Mexico City > Madrid) - how much will I regret not upgrading to any level that has a bit more legroom?

I decided long ago that life was too short to fly Coach on long hauls. Business travel to Europe and India spoiled me! YMMV but if Business Class fares give you apoplexy go for Premium Economy or the equivalent.

4. I have set an arbitrary $10k budget for travel per year, and this one trip appears to be a very short distance from blowing right through that number. Am I doing something wrong, or is this just the new normal?

Probably the new normal. When traveling independently (which in itself is cheaper than most tours), it's really helped me to have at least a fridge and a microwave in a hotel, or an Airbnb with a kitchen, so you can prepare many of your meals.

5. The flights alone look like they will be about 25% of the cost - does this sound about right?

It depends on the length of the trip and the class of service. I'd say for my Munich/Malta trip last May it was over 50% and it was just airfare for me.

6. Are flights cheaper in September vs. April/May?

Another crapshoot. As we get closer to September they may go up or down depending demand up to that point.

I have not yet estimated food costs. We are vegan, although I suspect we will be more vegetarian on this trip. We are not foodies looking for 3-star Michelin experiences, we are happy with mom-and-pop restaurants. Does anyone have an idea of daily restaurant budget? 2 adults no kids.

Hard to tell. It really depends on how many of your meals you get from grocery stores. I'd find eating in restaurants 3X/day tiring and expensive.

 

[brett]

We typically go to Europe in either May/June or Sept/Oct. Weather is not as hot, fewer crowds.

Airfare is based on supply/demand and on airport. Last May/June we flew to Madeira with a stop in Lisbon. The fare to Madeira was less than the fare to Lisbon even though we changed planes.

We often fly into one airport, Athens, and fly home from another...usually London or Paris. Both offer good fares to our home destination.

When shopping for air we use sights like google flights, matrixit, skyscanner (very good for low cost flights in europe and asia).

 

[Amethyst]

This. Whenever possible when traveling, I prepare my own meals - better nourishment, far cheaper. Occasional meals in fancy foreign restaurants are then seen as a memorable treat.

It goes without saying that one's traveling companion, if any, needs to be on the same page about this....

When traveling independently (which in itself is cheaper than most tours), it's really helped me to have at least a fridge and a microwave in a hotel, or an Airbnb with a kitchen, so you can prepare many of your meals.

It really depends on how many of your meals you get from grocery stores. I'd find eating in restaurants 3X/day tiring and expensive.

 

[OldShooter]

... 1. I got burned before when booking with a 3rd-party discount fare site (don't remember which one) - but they are so much cheaper than going direct w/ airlines. Any reason I should avoid them? (In this case, Expedia, Booking.com, Orbitz, Priceline)

We always book directly with the airline. Booking through an intermediary works fine when everything goes per plan. Otherwise not.

... 2. Why are flights that connect *through* Madrid cheaper than flights that just *stop* in Madrid?

Because this is a game. It is possible to book the longer trip and then just get off the airplane early. Doesn't work with checked baggage though and the airlines may have various means to harass you if you do it. Try here: https://thriftytraveler.com/guides/how-to-use-skiplagged/ and here: https://skiplagged.com/

... 3. The longest leg on the cheapest flight I have found so far is almost 11 hours (Mexico City > Madrid) - how much will I regret not upgrading to any level that has a bit more legroom?

Depends on how big you are and what seat you have. Best seats are aisle seats for easy in/out. Bulkhead seats are bad, too, for various reasons. Worst seats are in the middle of the long rows in a wide-body. We book the premium economy/Delta "Premium Select" aisles across. I am 6'

... 4. I have set an arbitrary $10k budget for travel per year, and this one trip appears to be a very short distance from blowing right through that number. Am I doing something wrong, or is this just the new normal?

Depends completely on where you go. Package prices for groups, cruises, etc. become very negotiable a few days before departure. We saved 40% on a Galapagos trip a few years ago. Viking offers so many deals that it is impossible to know if you are being cheated or not. So we don’t travel with them. You might want to explore the services that claim to find and offer last minute deals.

... 5. The flights alone look like they will be about 25% of the cost - does this sound about right?

How long is a piece of string? It depends. A ratio to trip cost is IMO a completely useless calculation.

... 6. Are flights cheaper in September vs. April/May?

Remember, this is a game. Your opponent is not going to telegraph his moves.

... I have not yet estimated food costs. We are vegan, although I suspect we will be more vegetarian on this trip. We are not foodies looking for 3-star Michelin eperiences, we are happy with mom-and-pop restaurants. Does anyone have an idea of daily restaurant budget? 2 adults no kids.

Again, how long is that piece of string? It depends. Street food? Groceries? We like AirBNBs with kitchens and on a road trip we will carry OJ, croissants, etc. for breakfast. Lunch and dinner will be "out." Ask Google or Seri for "Restaurants near me." and browse the costs. Alternatively do the research before departure to identify candidates. The biggest money-saver is probably to stay away from alcohol. Drink in your room from wine shop bottles.

 

[brett]

What you spend will be dependent on where you go, how you travel, etc.

We typically spend 8 weeks in SE Asia or Mexico/Costa Rica in the winter and 7 weeks in Europe Sept/Oct.

Spend will average out. A month in Thailand is far less than a month spent in Australia. It averages out.

Same for Europe. Turkey, Greece, Portugal are typically less expensive that Britain, France, etc.

My advice would be to do some research. Get some up to date travel books such as Lonely Planet. Spend some time on the web. Look at tripadvisor. Lots of resources.

 

[COcheesehead]

This may be crass and boorish, but maybe that’s who we are.
We travel with ziplock bags and many times will make “lunch” from the breakfast buffet especially in Europe where breakfasts contain meats, cheeses and breads.
The ziplock lunches go in our daypacks and we go off exploring.

 

[athena53]

This may be crass and boorish, but maybe that’s who we are.
We travel with ziplock bags and many times will make “lunch” from the breakfast buffet especially in Europe where breakfasts contain meats, cheeses and breads.
The ziplock lunches go in our daypacks and we go off exploring.

I would not do that. I may take a piece of fruit or my unfinished coffee (in a disposable cup) with me but other than that, I don't think it's fair to take enough with me to constitute another meal.

One other thought on booking Business class flights; I just booked Business Class from London to Belgrade- less than 3 hours but on my last trip my BA flight from London to Tirana, similar duration, gave me access to a Priority security line at Heathrow as well as lounge access. Priority Security and Immigration lines, especially at LHR, have saved my sanity quite a few times, and most lounges have substantial food to make up a great pre-flight meal as well as open bar.

 

[dixonge]

I decided long ago that life was too short to fly Coach on long hauls. Business travel to Europe and India spoiled me! YMMV but if Business Class fares give you apoplexy go for Premium Economy or the equivalent.

It is *so hard* to find a good price then see it get jacked up just for a little extra legroom. SkyScanner sent me to BudgetAir who started asking $170 *per person* to select a seat on just one of the three legs. *sigh*

I think I'm doing it wrong...

 

[Amethyst]

That is because the extra $ for legroom is what the seat actually costs. Your "good price" is actually a discount for accepting discomfort.

It is *so hard* to find a good price then see it get jacked up just for a little extra legroom. SkyScanner sent me to BudgetAir who started asking $170 *per person* to select a seat on just one of the three legs. *sigh*

I think I'm doing it wrong...

 

[brett]

If you are considering opting for priority air make certain to check the airline website to check the seat pitch. That way you will know exactly what you are paying for and can set your expectations accordingly.

More than once I have been about to go with premium economy only to find out, after checking, that the difference in pitch was minimal.

On one airline we do no book the upgrade. We use the money to buy the economy seats in the exit row that has about 8 feet to the seats in front. We end up with lots of legroom.

 

[HarveyS]

I think you should blow that dough for premium economy seating. I find it is not that much more and (usually) includes checked baggage. I've paid +$200pp recently on American airlines and about the same on Qatar.
Going to Europe, look into booking via a European carrier. If thing go pear-shaped the compensation rules are better and clearer than US carriers. Sometimes the euro carriers are too much more expensive for the identical (code share) flight and you have to book US carrier. You just need to look. I don't know about Mexico or other national carriers.
Booking.com was great when a hotel reservation needed to be refunded. Have not uses them for airfare.
$10k for 50 nights is, IMO, tight but do-able without air. $200/day for 2 people lodging, meals, bus/taxi/train and sight seeing. I assume you will not rent a car. Your budget may need to be revisited and raised. DW and I plan to $150/night just lodging.
I second airBNB or like accommodation. Shop and cook for yourself. And get one with a washing machine. Maybe one with bikes. Air conditioning is hard to find, but may be critical depending on where and when you go. If you book for over 28 days on airBNB there are usually significant discounts.

 

[dixonge]

On one airline we do no book the upgrade. We use the money to buy the economy seats in the exit row that has about 8 feet to the seats in front. We end up with lots of legroom.

I was just seeing that when walking through a booking. One leg MEX>DFW mentioned the awesome extra 6" of legroom. My first thought was "well then, why am I paying so much extra for Premium? Then the next leg the premium section was limited to the middle three seats, and my wife is fairly particular to window seats. She's like a little kid on flights really. I guess she wouldn't miss the hours over the ocean, but then again she probably would. Rethinking this again...

 

[dixonge]

I think you should blow that dough for premium economy seating. I find it is not that much more and (usually) includes checked baggage. I've paid +$200pp recently on American airlines and about the same on Qatar.
Going to Europe, look into booking via a European carrier. If thing go pear-shaped the compensation rules are better and clearer than US carriers. Sometimes the euro carriers are too much more expensive for the identical (code share) flight and you have to book US carrier. You just need to look. I don't know about Mexico or other national carriers.
Booking.com was great when a hotel reservation needed to be refunded. Have not uses them for airfare.
$10k for 50 nights is, IMO, tight but do-able without air. $200/day for 2 people lodging, meals, bus/taxi/train and sight seeing. I assume you will not rent a car. Your budget may need to be revisited and raised. DW and I plan to $150/night just lodging.
I second airBNB or like accommodation. Shop and cook for yourself. And get one with a washing machine. Maybe one with bikes. Air conditioning is hard to find, but may be critical depending on where and when you go. If you book for over 28 days on airBNB there are usually significant discounts.

we use AirBnB a lot, but this trip we are spending no more than 5 days in any one spot. Paris, Nancy, Strasbourg, Baden-Baden, Zurich, Lyon, Aix-en-Provence, Barcelona, Madrid, Lisbon. We've probably bitten off more than we can chew and will need to rethink some things.

On one hand, hey, if I'm spending $10k I'm going to get my money's worth! On the other hand, the longer we stay in total, the higher the costs go...

 

[dixonge]

to add insult to injury, every time I get to the seat assignment part, AA.com shows me options for Paris to Mexico City that begin in .......

London Heathrow. wtf?

Their site is borked...

 

[luckydude]

1. I always book directly with the airline to eliminate the middle man. This way if something goes wrong, I can deal with the airline directly.

2. Dunno. I find that a lot of the airline ticket pricings have no rhyme or reason.

3. Depends on if you're willing to pay extra for more comfort. When I was in my 20s and 30s, I had no problem flying 15 hours crammed in the middle seat in the cattle (i.e., economy) class. No more. Now I value comfort and extra space in biz class or at least premium economy and am happy to pay for them.

4. Rental car and airfare, among other things, are much more expensive now post Covid, and IMHO, a $10k budget for a 7-week trip for 2 people that you propose is very, very tight and probably unrealistic. More power to you if you can swing it. For me personally, when I am traveling, I will eat what I want, stay where I want, and go/see what I want. I don't want to let the cost of something dictate what I can or can't do, because for me that detracts from the joy and freedom of traveling while I am still physically able to. Also, I keep my itinerary flexible by booking my accommodations no more than one or two days ahead. This way I can easily change my itinerary as I see fit without be tied down to a fix schedule.

5. There's no hard and fast rule of what % of budget to spend on a trip. It all depends on how much you're willing to spend on a ticket.

6. If you're visiting a destination in shoulder or low season, the flight will probably be cheaper, but there's no guarantee. Also I don't know if booking several months in advance saves you money. I usually just book the flight a couple of months out if I'm sure of my travel dates.

7. Others may disagree, but I find food cost to be pretty cheap the world over---whether it's Paris and London (where I took my family last summer) or Sydney and Melbourne (where I just visited over the holidays). As long as you're not doing fine dining and don't drink, it's very easy to eat cheaply or inexpensively. I was probably averaging USD $20 pp per meal on my trips this past year.

FWIW, my travel budget for 2023 is around USD $60-70k. This includes 2 overseas family trips (family of 4) of 2 weeks each + 4-5 weeks of solo traveling on my own. A big part of the cost is airfare.

 

[brett]

We may find a place on booking.com but we will always try to find the owner on line. Typically we get something extra thrown in when we book direct or we get a discount.

Last time in Greece the total for an oceanside condo on Zykanthos was 500e. We were able to contact the owner direct. We agreed to 250e cash. But..we were on the island and our booking was to start the next day.

It is not in the least bit uncommon to get a 10 percent discount for cash in smaller family run hotels in Italy, Greece, etc. But...you need to pull out your credit card and then ask if there is a discount for cash.

We are going to Zihuatanejo next month. We booked last week. Google flights enabled us to see/shop one way flights for thirty days out. We selected the best flights/best price for our stay. You can sometimes save a fair amount by changing dates a day or two either way. Then we did accommodation.

We always try to book air direct. Sometimes you need to go to the airlines in country website. We found much better flight prices for domestic air in Turkey and in Argentina by going to the airline sites vs the large booking engines.

The trick is to do your search first. Understand what an an average price is and what a good price is. When your price hits...book.

 

[dixonge]

Lots of excellent advice, thank you all!

I think we need more time for research so we'll probably target September. We've also narrowed our trip to France. Spain/Portugal will have to wait!

My wife's cousin has lived in Lyon for a long time, so hopefully will have some travel tips as well.

 

[dixonge]

Did a little test this morning. It appears that the quoted prices are actually composed of a very small fare, double that for taxes, then double *that* amount for a 'carrier imposed fee' - which is a renaming of what used to be called 'fuel surcharge.' If we wanted to do MEX round trip to Paris in 2 weeks we could use Basic Economy then add exit row seats to get more room and pretend like it's Premium Economy and the total is $2200 give or take.

To be honest, 2 weeks is cutting it pretty damned close so unlikely to wait that long. But it is fun to imagine being that spontaneous. Also, late winter pricing can't be compared to shoulder season in April/May.

The way airlines manipulate pricing by using fees instead of actually posting fare changes like they used to is maddening though. It really does make one wonder if it wouldn't be better to just use an old-fashioned travel agent...

 

[Palmtree]

We typically spend 8 weeks in SE Asia or Mexico/Costa Rica in the winter and 7 weeks in Europe Sept/Oct.

Brett,

It looks like you are an experienced long vacation traveler. Something I've always aspired to, but have never done. How do you do it? I've always had a hard time figureing it out. For instance, finding long term rentals. Every site quotes day rates, even if we are searching for long time periods. Any suggestions on how to go on extended vacations would be very much appriciated.

 

[rodi]

I use flights.google.com to shop airfare. I play around with start and end dates because sometimes there can be a dramatic difference leaving a day earlier or later. It lets you change your class (economy, premium, biz, first) pretty easily so you can compare prices.

I also start 'shopping' for airfare for up to 2 months prior to buying. That way I can see what the price trends are - and if it dips I pounce. I typically check 2-3 times a week.

I use vrbo/airbnb for lodging if it's more than 1 night... So much nicer to make coffee in my jammies before getting ready to go sightseeing. And if we're tired, we grab food and wine and eat dinner at the apartment. This was a really big deal when we were travelling with the kids - more space for less money. I don't mind making my own bed.

Final tip - not budget related but important... Limit yourself to a carry on bag and a daypack. It is so much easier to navigage without hauling half of home with you. Especially if you are travelling by train, plane, or any method other than a rental car.

 

[brett]

Final tip - not budget related but important... Limit yourself to a carry on bag and a daypack. It is so much easier to navigage without hauling half of home with you. Especially if you are travelling by train, plane, or any method other than a rental car.
__________________

This is one of the best pieces of advice that people gave to us and we have passed on.

Since retiring we each travel with light weight international size carry on. A roller-two top notch in line wheels (in our early seventies) Our day bag is a small nylon bag that collapses into the size of my spouses fist..and weights nothing.

Does not matter if we are gone for a week or nine weeks. All the same to us.

Even if you have a rental car you need to take less. Both or our bags fit perfectly in the back of a Fiat Panda...with the back cover over them. We leave nothing in plain view. Our preferred rental car in Italy. Standard transmission. Not to mention lugging bags along cobblestones or up two or three flights of stairs to a B&B or small family hotel.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Airlines are prohibited from "Cabotage." They can't carry passengers from one foreign country to another. For example, a United Airlines flight from Los Angeles to Narita can go on to Seoul, but it cannot take on passengers in Tokyo and carry them to Seoul.

So if you are flying from Mexico (assumed based on your post) to, say Germany, Iberia, a Spain-flagged carrier must stop you in Spain first. I realize things have gotten much more complicated in the EU but that could very well explain the extra cost if not connecting through Madrid. Regulations may impose a punative tax. Or, the last leg may be a code-share flight on a low-cost carrier affiliate.

Cabotage is in general still applied worldwide but specific rules between individual countries are based on a complex net of bilateral agreements. Even within Europe, economic regulation of airlines is still complicated.

I have never found the 3rd party sites a good value. I booked with them years ago but have almost always gotten better results booking directly with airlines and hotels.

I personally pay for extra legroom on long haul flights (4+ hours) and stay loyal to star alliance which, pre-covid, got me upgraded to first class or business class at least 1/3 of th etime worldwide and 1/2 the time Hawaii to mainland. You can subscribe to economy plus on United for you plus companion worldwide for $1000 a year. That would likely be cheaper than paying for premium economy. Maybe your preferred carrier has a similar option. The alternative for me was to plan a "dead day" to recover from the flight. This would typically cost more so I rarely did it personally although business travel rules usually permitted it so I have done this.

With 7 weeks, I might skip the extra legroom and do a dead day. It's really a personal call. If you are 6 ft 7 with circulatory issues, pay up. If you can tolerate a few extra hours in coach, you know what it is costing you.

Avoiding high seasons in Eurone will save you money but both April and September are low seasons so you just need to shop around. Having lived in Northern Europe, weather is likely to be better in April but certainly no guarantees.