BooBooBear saw sicko and is looking at his bill from the cardiologist and is sicko.

[Martha]

Plus, the lifespan figures are sometimes highly suspect (e.g. Some countries don't even count infant deaths before age 2 in their mortality figures.)

Statistics are available for lifespan as of age 15. This gets past the infant death issue. I read a JAMA article sometime ago which showed that the US remained behind 20+ industrialized countries on lifespan of males over age 15 and second to the last for females over age 15.

Obesity and poor eating habits are likely a factor. But then again, smoking rates in Europe are far higher than in the US.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

And to CFB, I don't feel bad about being an American.

Since you're the second person to bring it up that way, its not how I meant it. So far I dont think i've ever felt bad about being an american; my point is that sometimes I think the [-]fat bastard who makes himself feel better by tearing into other people[/-] michael moore movies are keyed to create that feeling.

I'm often disappointed with some of the decisions made by some of our leaders. I'm disappointed we're not the best educated, lowest poverty, most respected, healthiest nation in the world. Because we oughta be. And in a lot of categories we dont even crack the top ten.

Thats stupid.

But I'm still awfully proud.

 

[kcowan]

Since you're the second person to bring it up that way, its not how I meant it. So far I dont think i've ever felt bad about being an american; my point is that sometimes I think the [-]fat bastard who makes himself feel better by tearing into other people[/-] michael moore movies are keyed to create that feeling.

I'm often disappointed with some of the decisions made by some of our leaders. I'm disappointed we're not the best educated, lowest poverty, most respected, healthiest nation in the world. Because we oughta be. And in a lot of categories we dont even crack the top ten.

Thats stupid.

But I'm still awfully proud.

I think the other factor is that the US has racial mix that is different than many of the other countries it is being compared to. And this might be a factor in many of the health statistics. There are unintended side effects. For example, making abortion more available to single moms leading to lower homicide rates. (There are statistics and damned lies too.)

Also being big and successful is always as sure way of becoming a target. Nobody picks on Bangladesh. This is no reason to relax but it does cut some slack.

 

[farmerEd]

.

 

[Gillette]

It would be interesting to know how many of those on this thread have actually personally experienced universal healthcare.

I have lived the last few years with universal healthcare. The differences in quality are not even in the same ballpark. If you want a hospital that looks like a ward from the 60s with no air conditioning then sign yourself up for the universal plan. A GP (family doc) to tell you that if you still have that earache in 3 months come back - get on the list. Given a prescription "close" to the one you had in the US - which made you sick and they think might have caused a blood clot (necessitating the trip the nasty hospital). FWIW-all of these instances were in the UK, I'm not brave enough to try Russia's system.

I'm fortunate enough to have worldwide private insurance - which meant that if I didn't want to go to the NHS hospital (which is gross) I had access to the private hospital. This employer provided insurance was considered a great benefit by the local employees as well.

Did I mention the 40% tax withholding to pay for the rubbish system?

I by no means think the US system doesn't have flaws - it does - they all do.

There is a big difference between healthcare for everyone and good healthcare for everyone. If anyone expects that they will receive the same level of care under a government system IMO it is frankly naive.

 

[Bigritchie]

I just wish they would make health care affordable.

THings like paying 30 bucks for a tylenol in the hospital, or paying 3 grand to get a needle stuck in your butt are insane.

I am for as little gov control as possible, but I do think they need to regulate pricing in the health care system especially things like ER visits. Just because we have no choice.

I once told a doctor that charged me 3k for a kidney stone (just to get a shot and x-ray), I said, what if you came in my store, and my store was the only place you could eat, and if you did not eat there you would suffer horrible pain, and possible have kidney failure, and I said sure I will make you some food, but it will cost you 3,000 bucks.

I would have no problem paying reasonable amounts to a hospital, but the system is just outa control.

I also think it is nuts that they charge a billion dollar insurance company 15% of the actual bill or even less, yet they would charge a person with 10k a year income, and no insurance, FULL price.

As far as feeling ashamed to be American sometimes, I must say that there are many times that I do, after dealing with the general public and how rude they are, and how toddler like 50 year olds in America can act. I think of these people going to other countries to visit, and think, well no wonder they hate Americans. I traveled quite a bit during the Marines and after, and I can say without a doubt, Americans are the rudest people I have ever met in my life. And believe me, it pains me to say that. I wish it were not true

 

[Gillette]

I can say without a doubt, Americans are the rudest people I have ever met in my life.

You must never have been to Russia. Honestly, anyone on vacation is a bad example of their country. Ask the people on the Costa del Sol (Spain) how they feel about British tourists. I agree about the toddler like behavior of some older Americans - especially on tour groups. I cringe everytime I see them, because I live overseas and they're a bad reflection on Americans.

I agree the prices are out of control. This is where there should be limits. Healthcare is not an industry where the market system will work. People can't just choose not to frequent your hospital because your prices are too high.

However, I think there is usually a smaller "cash price" for services than what would be billed to the insurance company.

 

[kcowan]

Ask the people on the Costa del Sol (Spain) how they feel about British tourists...

Even the British expats who live there feel the same way about the tourists.

 

[cantlogin]

...However, I think there is usually a smaller "cash price" for services than what would be billed to the insurance company.

That makes perfect sense, but it is not true. The insurance companies get a huge discount.

 

[jefipius]

It would be interesting to know how many of those on this thread have actually personally experienced universal healthcare.

I have lived the last few years with universal healthcare. The differences in quality are not even in the same ballpark. If you want a hospital that looks like a ward from the 60s with no air conditioning then sign yourself up for the universal plan. A GP (family doc) to tell you that if you still have that earache in 3 months come back - get on the list. Given a prescription "close" to the one you had in the US - which made you sick and they think might have caused a blood clot (necessitating the trip the nasty hospital). FWIW-all of these instances were in the UK, I'm not brave enough to try Russia's system.

I'm fortunate enough to have worldwide private insurance - which meant that if I didn't want to go to the NHS hospital (which is gross) I had access to the private hospital. This employer provided insurance was considered a great benefit by the local employees as well.

Did I mention the 40% tax withholding to pay for the rubbish system?

I by no means think the US system doesn't have flaws - it does - they all do.

There is a big difference between healthcare for everyone and good healthcare for everyone. If anyone expects that they will receive the same level of care under a government system IMO it is frankly naive.

I spent two years under the NZ health care system and thought it was great. I never had any serious medical issues, but then again I've never had any in the US either. For the minor issues and check ups that I went to a doctor for in NZ, I would say that the quality of care at least equaled the US and attentiveness (i.e. face to face time with a real doctor) far exceeded the US.

 

[Zoocat]

I can tell you who would be a afraid - all those companies that treat their employees like dirt because those employees would wake up and realize they don't have to stay with them just for the health insurance. It would be a boon to the average man/woman. I can't wait.

I hadn't thought of it quite that way before, but BRING IT ON! Can't wait for the tide to turn (at least a little) in favor of employees. The workplace has become horribly Darwinian in recent years.

 

[NinjaPigeon]

There is a big difference between healthcare for everyone and good healthcare for everyone. If anyone expects that they will receive the same level of care under a government system IMO it is frankly naive.

Well, comparing the systems overall is hard. It would appear that the US system works well for very bad problems, like cancer, or cases where the treatment is still very new. But the preventative care in a nationalized system is noticeably better. Trying to get into a doctor for a fever in the States takes a few days. In Canada, it takes under an hour. And before you ask, no I've never personally used their healthcare. But I've gone WITH someone to their clinics and seen the response time. I was impressed.

The real reason this movie got to me is that people WITH insurance are getting turned down for valid health issues. Apparently, our system is somewhat of a crap shoot. You get cancer? No problem - the insurance company rolls a die and if it comes up with a 7, you get 300k in medical treatment for a copay of $1k as long as you are in network. Comes up a 3? You're SOL and will probably die.

This is a side of the system I've never seen or heard about. I was shocked to see just how dirty the insurance companies were. I always assumed all the horror stories of US medicine were by the uninsured. Mr Moore has shown me something I never knew existed. And no, I'm not a supporter of his. His documentaries [sic] are anything but. In this case however, he's exposed some things I think a lot of Americans didn't know existed.

 

[NinjaPigeon]

I hadn't thought of it quite that way before, but BRING IT ON! Can't wait for the tide to turn (at least a little) in favor of employees. The workplace has become horribly Darwinian in recent years.

Heh, that's so true. Amazes me that we as a nation have somehow come to the conclusion that it's okay to work over 40h every week because it's our "responsibility". I always think of it like this - if my boss says "yah, I'm gonna need you to come in on Saturday and Sunday this week", why isn't it okay for me to say, "yah, I'm gonna need you to pay me an extra grand this week".

Or, if you don't like that comparison, try this one. Why is it okay for you to have to come in early or stay late for an emergency, but if you need to see a dentist, you have to use vacation time?

That scene in the movie where Bush says to the woman that working jobs is a "uniquely American" thing, and he says it with pride... yah, that's nothing to be proud of. That's something to be ashamed of. I'd like to believe he's too much a politician to let his true feelings show, but deep down, I think he honestly just doesn't care.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

My biggest concern is health care insurance, and it isnt even paying for it. Its keeping insured so I dont see my stash get wiped out by an emergency.

I can imagine what its like for people who cant even get past the part of affording it.

My experience with 'regular' system:

Doctor tries to get me in to see him as often as possible, even though its unnecessary because he's trying to amp up his earnings. Then he charges extra to the insurance company so that after they do their 'feel good' discount negotiations he's getting a fair price. Then the insurance company pays all but six dollars of the amount. The doctors office bills me for the six bucks. I pay by check or credit card, which is again handled by the doctors office, then a bank. Then I take my prescription to a pharmacy thats also trying to make a profit by selling drugs that a pharmaceutical company is trying to make a profit from, the latter which spends billions trying to convince me that a drug will fix problems that I dont even have, while shoving samples into my doctors pockets to convince him to get me to try it.

I think I'd rather we have a simple system where everyone gets the care, preventative management and treatments they need, with all these profit dollars staying either in my pocket or in the pocket of whoever is treating me.

And I'd sit in a 1960's non air conditioned ward to get it.

 

[NinjaPigeon]

I think I'd rather we have a simple system where everyone gets the care, preventative management and treatments they need, with all these profit dollars staying either in my pocket or in the pocket of whoever is treating me.

And I'd sit in a 1960's non air conditioned ward to get it.

I agree very much with your post. I'm curious what you thought the answer might be though?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

My new HMO seems to have figured out at least part of it. They offer better levels of care than BC for half the price.

So either the insurance companies need to own the doctors and pharmacies, or someone other than the insurance companies needs to pay them.

Since I believe that health care is like education, everyone should get at least the basics and if they want to pay out of pocket for more, do so.

Given the current costs of the system, it should be possible to do with current funding. Massachusetts seems to think they can get away with it. I'm not QUITE so stupid as to think that inserting a bureaucracy into the system solves it, but it does seem that at least some socialization can produce good results at a reasonable cost.

My HMO doctor doesnt want to see me, and I dont need to see him. I just wanted a refill. No negotiation, no billing, no paperwork, no pharmacy profits, no insurance company profits, no doctor overhead to cover.

I know the HMO's have their problems too, but I have no issues with pushing to get all the care I want from them. I'd be more worried if they didnt whomp the PPO plans by a good margin in every objective survey I've seen...

 

[modhatter]

People, do you really think with the current federal deficit at figures so mind bogling it is uncomprehensible, and medicare alone unsustainable, and the Iraq war sucking the financial life from us, that we can afford universal health insurance for EVERYONE?

Get real. Our medical costs here are out of sight. Do you know what the average doctor makes today. They don't just have a practice, they run a detroit factory. Do you know the cost associated with medical supplies today, that should cost 1/10th of what they bill. The whole system is out of control. In the movie when they interviewed the young doctor in England, as to how well he gets paid by the government, and he said he thought he got paid very well with all the incentives in place for him he could make in excess of $150,000 a year.

That's chump change for our doctors here. And do you know that in almost every country their governments impose limits on Pharmaceutacal companies as to what they can charge for their medications. All that is but the US. Our government (Bush) promised the big giants that it would not impose such restrictions, cause someone has to pay the cost of all the R&D.

Of course, any doctors here are going to jump in a bring up the out of control mal practice insurance they have to pay. And I totally agree. Another American out of control blood sucking industry. The law suit industry. There's a real healthy american devised industry. Open your yellow pages, and see how many Personal Injury Lawyers you see. Hard to find one who just does the simple stuff anymore.

Don't get me wrong. I think the fact that at this late date we still do not provide universal or AT LEAST affordable health insurance for it's citizens is a travesty. But the enormaty of the problem would take the best of the best to fix, and we don't have such people in power. Just think about trying to fix it all. Where would you begin? How do you undue all that has been done that got us where we are today.

 

[ERD50]

But the enormaty of the problem would take the best of the best to fix, and we don't have such people in power.

Just think about trying to fix it all. Where would you begin? How do you undue all that has been done that got us where we are today.

Is there any hope for the Massachusetts plan? I have not followed the details, but weren't they trying to take a step-wise approach to the problem. It seemed reasonable to me on the surface, but as always, the Devil is in the details.

-ERD50

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Seems easy to me. Put everyone in a not-for-profit HMO like i'm in, and collect all the funds the government, employers and everyone else are throwing into the current set of systems. Since my HMO is charging half as much, you can now extend coverage to everyone and still have money left over.

Then its time to corral the drug companies. Do we really need 8 companies working on different hair, boner and cholesterol pills or perhaps we make one or two of each type of drug, maybe beat those cancer and aids critters and make the drugs available to the socialized system at a reasonable cost?

Just imagine running the military, road building or education in this manner.

Ridiculous.

 

[samclem]

I
There is no question among constitutional scholars that the broad power to levy taxes and expend funds to provide for the general welfare gives the legislature power to do things like establish social security programs, medicare, and it it chose, national health care.

There's no doubt that this is the common present interpretation of the role of the federal government. But I think it's reasonable to assume James Madison and Thomas Jefferson had some understanding of what the framers meant.
(The section below is from a column by George Mason Unv professor Walter Williams, at the link http://tinyurl.com/334m6k)

**********************************************
In 1794, Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees. James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." . . . Here's what Madison had to say about [the general welfare clause] : "With respect to the two words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." Thomas Jefferson echoed similar sentiments saying, "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."
*****************************

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

We're also not supposed to have a standing army.

 

[kcowan]

I updated a piece I put together on health care a couple of years ago:
US Health Care

It seems that not much has changed.