Bragging/New Frugal Generation

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ERD50, stop being an engineer! ;) Yeah, I know, I can't turn off that part of my brain either.

You are seeking the optimal solution to the problem of pay down loan vs. invest in 401k with match. Based on a rational analysis using math, the highest net present value lies with investing in the 401k. Unfortunately, not everyone uses this same rational system of analysis. Emotion comes into play, and the feeling of being debt free trumps mere mathematical analysis of what is best financially. To some it is "feel good, sleep at night". To some it is a badge of honor to be debt free.
 
...Although I appreciate the spontaneous sharing of advice on 401k contribution vs. student loan repayment, that's not why I posted, nor did I at any time ask for such advice....LadyPatriot

Your daughter is choosing one of two quite responsible options for her finances--pay off debt or save. Amazing for a 24-yr.-old, either way she goes.

Sometimes this forum is like a debate club--had you posted she prefers red to blue, you might be hearing many reasons why blue is better than red. :ROFLMAO:

I love your description of your daughter's high school persona! I'm going to look at our public librarians a little differently from now on :)
 
Congratulations on raising such financially savvy daughters!
I love all the various opinions given by everyone here....you take the best and leave the rest!
Heck, if I would have listened to everyone who was against me leaving my corporate job to have a new career in massage therapy.....I would still be miserable! However, when I made the jump, I had a better understanding of all the risks/questions/potholes that I would encounter which saved me a lot of surprises!
 
I remember I had a very smart admin (she latter left Intel to study computer science at Stanford!) who wasn't taking advantage of the employee stock purchase plan. I understood her problem (single mom living in an expensive area on a admin salary) but still I was determined for her to take advantage of this deal. I told her it being better to borrow the money on the credit card deal. I eventually I said easiest way for her to double her raise was to sign up. Eventually she did and she did thank me.

I just have to comment on this little side-topic. It's one of my favorite "opportunity knocks" stories.

I suspect that your ESPP was structured very much (if not exactly) like ours was. I know of at least one mega-corp with this plan in place, and ours seemed to be a carbon copy of it (why re-invent the wheel?). When I first saw the plan, I kept looking for the "gotcha", the "fine print". I couldn't believe it, it was all gravy, it was a "gift", there was no "gotcha". IIRC, it went something like this:

A) Sign up for 6 months at a time. You took a payroll deduction for the amount you invest up to 10% of your gross.

B) At the end of 6 months, you get the company stock at 15% below the lowest of EITHER the price at the beginning or the end of the period. That was the part I had to read 27x to believe.

C) You could sell the stock as soon as it was credited to your account ( a matter of days).

Wow. The only risk I could scratch out of this was - if the stock dropped more than 15% from your purchase price between the few days from closing to the time you could sell. One could short that much stock, or buy a put to protect themselves, but I assumed that any delta would average out, so I just accepted that small risk. I ALWAYS sold immediately when it hit my account.

The math: A 15% purchase discount means you sell at 17.6% above your purchase price ($100 stock purchased at $85 is 100/85 = 17.6% gain). 17.6% done 2x a year is 38.4% MINIMUM compounded annual return, practically guaranteed! Often, the stock rose over the period, so you took the gain on top of that! I'd have to dig it up, bit it was thousands, usually many thousands of dollars of pure profit each year, at very, very low risk. THAT felt good!

So yes, if you could not handle a 10% reduction in your paycheck, you could put that on your CC and keep paying it down with the profits. You would never suffer a cash flow reduction, and you would be out of debt and enjoying the profits in a short while.

I kept talking this up with my co-workers, and I was shocked at how hesitant people were. "I can't afford it", with no more thought; "I already own too much company stock" (you are going to sell it within days!); lethargy; suspicion. I got to the point where I was begging people to do it, I told them I would put up the money, and they can keep half the profit. I would have loved to get dozens of people to do this, the profits would have poured in ( I def would have bought/sold puts for a few days with that much exposure). But I really would say it to make the point of what a great deal this was. Yet, so many people passed it by. :nonono: It really was not "investing" - it was a company benefit. I told people, you don't voluntarily give up a raise, or your health insurance, do you? So why give this up? But people did.

One of my employees followed my lead, but it took a lot for him to convince his conservative wife. He started out with a small deduction, but went up to the full 10% the next period. He thanked me, and still emails me occasionally for financial feedback ;)

When opportunity knocks, do you listen?

-ERD50
 
When opportunity knocks, do you listen?
To further sidetrack the thread...

Up till this year we had 100% matching contributions on 401ks up to 6% of salary. Immediately vested 100% from the day you put your money in. In other words, you lose about 4% from your take home pay and get 12% of your salary deposited into your 401k. Sweet deal that almost all took. But some few, who could afford it by their own admission, declined to participate at all, just because they didn't feel like messing with it. After tax savings, you get an immediate 200% return on investment, yet some folks don't care! Opportunity knocks and they don't listen.
 
It boggles my mind that anyone would make a fully informed decision to avoid a 401k match. I could comprehend if they couldn't afford it, or if they were unaware of its benefits, or even if they were too lazy to sign up for it. But this is like walking past $20 bills on the sidewalk every day and then saying "I'm glad I didn't pick up those $20 bills."

Oh well, more FIRE for the rest of us...
 
I understand and agree with the arguments for a 401k match, but it's clear that wasn't LP's question and she has already responded twice pointing out that the financial argument wasn't the sole factor in her DD's decision.

It might be an interesting exercise to some to figure out why such an obvious decision is made "incorrectly", but I think these people might be overlooking the non-financial aspect. Asking the same question in different ways only seeks to antagonize the poster.

No offense intended, I just see LP's point and I'm an over-analytical engineer.
 
No offense intended, I just see LP's point and I'm an over-analytical engineer.

But doesn't it bug you when you see sub-optimal decisions? :D

(couldn't help but further antagonize)
 
But doesn't it bug you when you see sub-optimal decisions? :D

(couldn't help but further antagonize)

Five engineers were asked the philosophical question - "Is the glass half full or half empty?".

The first engineer said: "The cup is over-designed for that amount of liquid. A cost reduction opportunity exists.", (while mentally reviewing surface area versus volume formulas for cylinders).

The second engineer said: "The cup is under utilized."

The third engineer said: "Let's review the requirements documents."

The fourth engineer said: "Looks like marketing promised the customer a change, and forgot to tell engineering."

The fifth engineer was more succinct: "It depends."

-ERD50
 
... but it's clear that wasn't LP's question and she has already responded twice pointing out that the financial argument wasn't the sole factor in her DD's decision.

Well, just to continue on the over-analytical front ;)...

Actually, it was not clear at all that that was not her question. The first post had no question (other than the rhetorical one) at all, it was all observation. And she mentioned that the daughter did ask the question of 401K versus loan pay-off. So it seems reasonable that if people were to comment at all, they would comment on anything that was part of the post, and especially on one where questions were asked by the daughter.

Her second post included information on their decision process, which appeared to be flawed (or miss-communicated). Again, it seems reasonable for people who want to help and/or learn to ask about that.

Her third post included some additional (but not complete) information on their decision process, which still appeared to be flawed (or miss-communicated). So, the conclusion offered that "she really wants to get out from under that loan as soon as possible", may still be based on some bad assumptions, and for all we know she would not feel that way if it was a completely informed decision (remember, we do not know, and still don't know the 401K terms at this point).

Her fourth post reiterates that "being debt-free is important to her". But, w/o the 401K terms, we still don't know how to compare the "importance of being debt free" with whatever matching the 401K provides. So, helpful people are still left wondering if it is an informed decision.

It is not until her fifth post, after ~ 20 helpful responses, that she specifically states she did not ask for any advice on the matter.

At that point, the thread took on a life of it's own ;)

So, if she really did not want to get feedback on that at all, why provide any info on the interest rate on the loan? Why even entertain it, if their mind is made up? It seems like an irrelevant financial detail to them anyhow. It probably would have been better for her to respond with something like "DD hates owing money on anything, she would rather be thrown in a broken glass filled septic tank with poisonous snakes than owe money to anyone. Nothing can change this, not even large sums of money".

But heck, in the OP she said her daughter *asked* about it, so she certainly *considered* it - what the heck would sway them away from it then? What could be more powerful than a 401K match?

Geez, thinking about the fact that DD asked, now I'm even more curious than I was originally. I really, really don't get this.

Oh well.

-ERD50
 
ERD50,

Oft times once you lead a horse to water it still will not drink. Maybe the horse has indigestion or maybe it is not thirsty. If it croaks a half hour later then you can say I told you so! Whatever the cause this horse aint gonna drink. So be it. :whistle:

I kinda feel sorry for LP, she has gotten a lot of sand kicked on her from this. She just wanted to share what she felt is good news and some of us decided to tell her what to do. Shame on us :(. We need to accept others choices, even though we know better!:angel:
 
ERD50,



I kinda feel sorry for LP, she has gotten a lot of sand kicked on her from this. She just wanted to share what she felt is good news and some of us decided to tell her what to do. Shame on us :(. We need to accept others choices, even though we know better!:angel:


I don't feel too sorry for her, if the worse financial thing her daughter does is not sign up for a 401K, than she has raised some pretty smart [-]kids[/-] young adults. :flowers:. Beats the heck out of the 24 year old with 100K in student loans, that Grandma's house is pledged as collateral.
 
ERD50,

I kinda feel sorry for LP, she has gotten a lot of sand kicked on her from this. She just wanted to share what she felt is good news and some of us decided to tell her what to do. Shame on us :(. We need to accept others choices, even though we know better!:angel:

What clifp said.

Plus, I don't think anyone "kicked sand in her face". Just the opposite. People tried to help her make an informed decision and most likely improve the financial well being of her daughter. And as clifp has pointed out, this one seems so straightforward, it seemed that our information was not getting across (see my earlier loooong post), and I think that may have led to what looked like people being on the "forceful" side of it.

In fact, I personally take some slight offense in you saying what we did was "shameful". But that's OK, I am not about to make a big deal about it or go off in a huff.

I think the "informed decision" is key - what she does after being informed is up to her of course. It just was not clear to us that she was getting the information or not.

So what do you suggest? Next time a person's post contains something we may be able to help them with, just be quiet so we don't possibly risk offending them? Please don't do that for me - I welcome helpful advice. I even welcome un-helpful (but well intentioned) advice, because sometimes it makes me re-think my position, or makes me think "outside the box" and triggers an even better idea.

This ain't tea with the Queen - it's a jungle out there, and I think we can benefit from each other's views.

-ERD50
 
To continue with what ERD50 said, this is not a "1 and done" situation. The decision to pay down the loan instead of getting the 401k match is not a permanent decision. It can be undone and the position on this decision can change at any time in light of new evidence or a reevaluation of existing evidence.

I also like to have my position on things challenged since I know my knowledge and expertise on many topics is limited. After looking at what others have to say, I can always stick with my original course of action. But I don't like to act with blinders on.

Maybe the OP is experiencing cognitive dissonance between her beliefs regarding the pay down loan vs fund 401k and the arguments being put forth in this thread. Perhaps she has already rationalized her decision, and doesn't like seeing evidence or arguments that show the weakness or logical inconsistencies in her position.
 
I tried my best to phrase my responses gently, it's always hard to tell how posts are received w/o the inflection and body language and real-time feedback of a face-to-face conversation.

-ERD50

I would say that in this case, it's fairly easy to see how the post was received. :)


Although I appreciate the spontaneous sharing of advice on 401k contribution vs. student loan repayment, that's not why I posted, nor did I at any time ask for such advice.

LadyPatriot
 
...
Plus, I don't think anyone "kicked sand in her face". ... information was not getting across (see my earlier loooong post), and I think that may have led to what looked like people being on the "forceful" side of it.

In fact, I personally take some slight offense in you saying what we did was "shameful". But that's OK, I am not about to make a big deal about it or go off in a huff.
...

So what do you suggest? Next time a person's post contains something we may be able to help them with, just be quiet so we don't possibly risk offending them? Please don't do that for me - I welcome helpful advice. I even welcome un-helpful (but well intentioned) advice, because sometimes it makes me re-think my position, or makes me think "outside the box" and triggers an even better idea.

This ain't tea with the Queen - it's a jungle out there, and I think we can benefit from each other's views.

-ERD50

Some, and by some I mean me, don't care for anything that smells of debate or argument or conflict. Some put their contributions out there and if they are accepted or picked up, fine, if not, well, they've said their piece.

It is good that you offered what you believe to be an incontrovertible answer to a perceived problem. I'm reminded however that sometimes people (not to say women) just want to talk, while other people (not to say men) want to provide solutions. In this house sometimes providing the solution is not the answer. I keep learning that.
 
Late to comment, Lady Patriot, but I just want to congratulate you on raising a very savvy librarian! I wished I had the fortitude at her age to stick it out in such a rigorous degree program, as I love libraries! I do hope to volunteer at our local one when I FIRE.

And speaking as a debt free person, I applaud her decision to pay off the loan. Please forgive/ignore those engineers and their unsolicited advice--they just can't help it, I guess.

The rest of us are just delighted to hear of young people who are concerned about carrying debt. Thanks for sharing and for your extremely cordial replies to those that insisted on "correcting the error of your ways". :flowers:

All the best,
Sarah
 
And speaking as a debt free person, I applaud her decision to pay off the loan. Please forgive/ignore those engineers and their unsolicited advice--they just can't help it, I guess.

The rest of us are just delighted to hear of young people who are concerned about carrying debt.
Ditto, except that I am an engineer by trade, more or less...

In reality, I wouldn't personally pass up the "free money" of a company match in a 401K or 403B plan, but everyone marches to their own drumbeat. And as I said in another thread, the most important thing is to consistently generate positive cash flows which trickle into the net worth statement -- consistently earn more than you spend and let the difference build net worth, whether through increased assets or reduced liabilities.

In the grand scheme of things, employer match notwithstanding, the most important thing is that she is using the excess cash flows to build net worth rather than blow it all on consumption. Those are the habits that build wealth and secure the future, regardless of whether it goes into investments or debt reduction. Relative to the decision to use extra cash flow to enhance net worth, the choice of investing or paying off debt is "small stuff" which doesn't need to be heavily sweated.
 
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Ditto, except that I am an engineer by trade, more or less...

In reality, I wouldn't personally pass up the "free money" of a company match in a 401K or 403B plan, but everyone marches to their own drumbeat. And as I said in another thread, the most important thing is to consistently generate positive cash flows which trickle into the net worth statement -- consistently earn more than you spend and let the difference build net worth, whether through increased assets or reduced liabilities.

In the grand scheme of things, employer match notwithstanding, the most important thing is that she is using the excess cash flows to build net worth rather than blow it all on consumption. Those are the habits that build wealth and secure the future, regardless of whether it goes into investments or debt reduction. Relative to the decision to use extra cash flow to enhance net worth, the choice of investing or paying off debt is "small stuff" which doesn't need to be heavily sweated.

I definitely agree with this take on things. The main objective, if one wants to become wealthy, it to increase net worth. I almost cross posted with you, Ziggy, about that exact topic. Whether net worth is increased by decreasing liabilities or by increasing productive assets, in the end you are still increasing net worth.

But that whole "sub-optimal" approach bugs me. Blowing money on junk ranks about a 2 out of 10 on the financial responsibility scale. Paying down debt ranks pretty high - say 9 out of 10. Contributing the minimum to a 401k to get the match might be just a little bit more optimal - 10 out of 10. Obviously the terms of the debt and the details of the 401k plan and matching percentages factor in to the rankings.

Of course I'm the guy with $120,000 of student loan debts with above the line fully tax deductible interest rates of 0.75% to 1.75% fixed for 26 more years. I don't ever intend to pay these loans down any more than the required minimum payments. This is "good debt" per my engineering analysis. :D
 
Congratulations, LP, it’s got to be a joy to see your kids turn out so well. Love their LBYM techniques, seems like very few out there are willing to ride public transit and share living quarters.

I’ve been boggled by the way libraries have changed in the last few years. I go to two libraries, one has an automatic checkout system, just put your card thru and you don’t see anyone unless you have a non-routine question. I’m also experimenting with downloading books from their collection, so far I don’t like that very much but maybe I’ll get used to it; still prefer the Kindle to reading on the laptop. The other library has real people who talk to everyone checking out the books.

What does a reference librarian do these days? I think I’ve underutilized them in the past. Apparently you can ask them any question and they can help steer you to the answer. At my library they also teach computer research techniques. As far as I can tell, it’s the best job there. They put out a list of new books every month which includes book reviews by employees.
 
Ours is the old fashioned type of library--with the folks checking out books by hand, though they are bar-coded.

Kinda off topic, but I was checking out some books the other day on assisted suicide and the right to die movement (Final Exit and one called To Die Well) and felt compelled to explain that I wasn't really reading these for myself, but for a research project for class.
 
The next time the engineers get all "sub opitimal", send them to http thereifixedit dot com

Enough kludges there to keep anyone busy for a while! :D

ta,
mew
 
Some, and by some I mean me, don't care for anything that smells of debate or argument or conflict. Some put their contributions out there and if they are accepted or picked up, fine, if not, well, they've said their piece.

OK. But considering that this is a ___discussion____ forum, then I think that anyone who posts something and is opposed to a discussion on that topic should make that crystal clear from the onset.

I think I've done that a few times. For example, I might want to discuss one aspect of what might be an hot topic for some, so I'll ask, "let's please not go off on the merits of x,y,z, but could we stick to this one detail of it that I'd like to discuss?".

So, in that case, join in if you want to discuss that detail in isolation, skip it if you can't do it w/o jumping into the big hot topic.

Seem fair?

-ERD50
 
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